Am I crazy, or was this previously a thing?

[squall_line]

I've been poking around more and more reading threads as I plan my next purchase/purchases.  I saw a thread that talked about how you used to be able to trade in or swap out a track in the TS-55 Set for a different one for a nominal fee, and how that's no longer a thing.

For the HK-55/HKC-55, I thought that I had seen, quite recently, a website that allowed you to choose which track to get with the saw, and it was provided at the discounted rate instead of full price (60 USD off of the 250, 55 USD off of the 420, 50-55 off of the 670).

I only ask because the HK-55 can be kitted with the 420 rail, and the HKC-55 can be kitted with the 250 rail for the savings mentioned above.  I'd prefer the Corded HK (hobbyist future-proofing/avoiding battery buy-in) with the 250 rail (plans right now are to only cut 2x4s and 2x6s and to get the LR-32 1400 rail for sheet goods), but would prefer to get them as a set/kit for the somewhat reasonable savings.  I'd probably even be willing to buy the saw new instead of recon if I could get it with the rail (I'm cheap, and as a hobbyist a 1-year warranty isn't as concerning as if I were using it to make money)

Any suggestions?  Talk to a dealer directly?  Get the 420 Set and the 250 rail and sell the 420 rail?

 

[semenza]

Pretty sure that was a dealer option as opposed to a Festool option. So it would be up to individual dealers. Probably need to contact them.

Seth

 

[RustE]

As Seth mentioned, it’s a bit of a dealer negotiation.  Hartville Hardware asked me which rail I wanted when I bought the HK 55.  I took the 420 and bought the 250 later.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I keep seeing people talk about "deals"? I thought prices were fixed, at least here in the US? I understand that is not necessarily the case everywhere.
The only discounting I have ever seen is on the package deals direct from Festool, usually with a CT.

 

[squall_line]

I keep seeing people talk about "deals"? I thought prices were fixed, at least here in the US? I understand that is not necessarily the case everywhere.
The only discounting I have ever seen is on the package deals direct from Festool, usually with a CT.

I mean, prices are set, but Festool sells pre-packaged kits and sets.  Think Tool vs Tool Plus.  Tool Plus is always cheaper than buying the batteries and charger separate.

HK 55 comes as Tool or Tool Plus FSK, which includes the FSK 420 rail, and about 55 bucks cheaper than buying them separately.
HKC 55 comes as Tool, Tool Plus (includes batteries and charger), or Tool Plus FSK, which includes the batteries, charger, and FSK 250 rail, about 60 bucks cheaper than buying the rail separately.

There's also the TID + HKC set (includes FSK250 and 12-tooth blade), TID + TSC set, Pro Remodeler Set, Pro Finish Set...

I'd love to swap stuff between the Pro Remodel and Pro Finish sets, but, alas...  I have a VERY large spreadsheet where I can pick pieces and roll my own kit and compare to some of the pre-packaged kits.  It's eye-crossing and eye opening at the same time.  And I've probably spent more time on it than I'll save in costs once I finally pull the trigger and pack out my kit.

Also, I believe that the CT + Tool discounts ended after 2019 (to my chagrin; I'd love to swap out my older Mini for a Bluetooth Mini-I).  There were some kits that came with a DE, including the TS55 + HK55 + CT48 Set that's been up recently on Recon, but I'm not sure how many kits like that exist anymore.

 

[mino]

I would still get the HKC. It is the one tool where battery makes all kinds of sense. It also makes it a good complement to a corded TS55.

Also, FYI - HK 55 is EOL in Europe starting this year. So likely will be discontinues after some time also over the pond.

 

[RustE]

I keep seeing people talk about "deals"? I thought prices were fixed, at least here in the US? I understand that is not necessarily the case everywhere.
The only discounting I have ever seen is on the package deals direct from Festool, usually with a CT.

Price fixing is technically illegal.  The scenario is more like ‘sell at MAP or lose the product line’.  MAP = Minimum Advertised Price.

Dealers could do the discounted price for buying a tool and a vacuum at the same time.  Emphasis on “could” because that is no longer available.https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/...-package-deal-10-discount-ends-december-31st-(us)/

 

[RustE]

...
Also, FYI - HK 55 is EOL in Europe starting this year.
...

I wondered the other day why I didn’t see it on the Festool website (i.e. Worldwide version).  Thought maybe it was missing because of the SYS3 changeover.  Any explanation as to why it’s being discontinued?

 

[AlexThePalex]

Price fixing is technically illegal.

It is not in the USA.

When the court case played in Europe I delved into it, and while it is illegal in Europe for a manufacturer to dictate prices to its dealers, it is not in the USA. There is case law for this in the USA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing#United_States

In State Oil Co. v. Khan,[11] the US Supreme Court held that vertical price fixing is no longer considered a per se violation of the Sherman Act

 

[mino]

I wondered the other day why I didn’t see it on the Festool website (i.e. Worldwide version).  Thought maybe it was missing because of the SYS3 changeover.  Any explanation as to why it’s being discontinued?

I'd venture to guess low sales compared to the HKC 55.

Also the use case for a small-ish HK type saw is much more suited for a cordless tool. The same why Festool discontinued corded drills except the biggest one.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Price fixing is technically illegal.  The scenario is more like ‘sell at MAP or lose the product line’.  MAP = Minimum Advertised Price.

Dealers could do the discounted price for buying a tool and a vacuum at the same time.  Emphasis on “could” because that is no longer available.https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/...-package-deal-10-discount-ends-december-31st-(us)/

However the terminology works, I was told that every dealer must sell for the same price. Your local stores, big dealers like Toolnut, and Amazon same, the only thing you gain by shopping around is availability.
Of course, "technically" they can do whatever they want, they own the product.....but they will lose their ability to get any more. So, I guess that someone going out of business or willing to lose the  brand from their store could sell it for whatever they want, but that's not optimal?

 

[RustE]

...
I guess that someone going out of business or willing to lose the  brand from their store could sell it for whatever they want, but that's not optimal?

I’d say not.  Rockler played that hand by allowing discounts on Festool items and then lost their dealer rights for several years.  Today there are Festool items available at Rockler.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

"Lost their selling rights for several years" seems like the point.
At bare minimum, they would have lost the revenue from those sales, plus any impulse (or other extra purchases) that would have occurred at the same time.

 

[Jim_in_PA]

I suspect it was easier to work out package component swaps earlier on when there were independent small reps like "Uncle Bob". So much of Festool sales has moved to mass market tool sellers and regular retailers (the latter sometimes only carrying part of the line) and that means less flexibility. This is speculation on my part, of course...

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I have always wondered where the money goes?
It's no secret that these are the upper end of the market in the US, though not necessarily Europe.
Certainly the cost of the engineering and the higher labor of German manufacturing (not in China)are part of it. But is this extended to the dealers too?
I guess what I'm saying is are they higher margin sales for the retailers? So everyone involved gets the benefit? Maybe that's the driving force of the fixed price? They don't want dealers who would be willing to discount prices and make it back in higher volume? This would have a tendency to drive prices down everywhere.
If so, I'd really like to know. I would hope that is the case. I know businesses are funny about admitting to profits, like somehow people would begrudge them that, but it's not like people knowing could do anything about it. The whole point of retail is making a profit and it would seem wrong that the dealers wouldn't get some of it. They are after-all the ones with the capitol invested in inventory......though that's not really an issue right now, is it  [blink]

 

[afish]

All I know is Festool lost a sale not having the LR32 rail with the track saw or an option to upgrade it for the difference which I think was 10 bucks at the time.  I ended up getting the Makita and adding the LR32 rail later.  If it was a marketed option from the get go I would have bought the Festool instead of the Makita.  I didn't want to call around and try to negotiate this so just went the cheap and easy way.  I liked the Makita and have no issues but the LR32 option would have sweetened the pot enough for me to go green. 

 

[Crazyraceguy]

All I know is Festool lost a sale not having the LR32 rail with the track saw or an option to upgrade it for the difference which I think was 10 bucks at the time.  I ended up getting the Makita and adding the LR32 rail later.  If it was a marketed option from the get go I would have bought the Festool instead of the Makita.  I didn't want to call around and try to negotiate this so just went the cheap and easy way.  I liked the Makita and have no issues but the LR32 option would have sweetened the pot enough for me to go green.

Is that a recent thing? Because that's exactly how I bought mine, September '19. I had no real need for it at the time, but when the dealer told me the price was the same either way, I said sure.

 

[DeformedTree]

I have always wondered where the money goes?
It's no secret that these are the upper end of the market in the US, though not necessarily Europe.
Certainly the cost of the engineering and the higher labor of German manufacturing (not in China)are part of it. But is this extended to the dealers too?
I guess what I'm saying is are they higher margin sales for the retailers? So everyone involved gets the benefit? Maybe that's the driving force of the fixed price? They don't want dealers who would be willing to discount prices and make it back in higher volume? This would have a tendency to drive prices down everywhere.
If so, I'd really like to know. I would hope that is the case. I know businesses are funny about admitting to profits, like somehow people would begrudge them that, but it's not like people knowing could do anything about it. The whole point of retail is making a profit and it would seem wrong that the dealers wouldn't get some of it. They are after-all the ones with the capitol invested in inventory......though that's not really an issue right now, is it  [blink]

Fixed Price is something that helps everyone and why retail is shifting in that direction so much. Mainly brought on by the internet.  With it, you basically kill shady retailers off, they can't go low balling on prices, which then people "price shopping" go there to buy, then end up in the scam game, or random up charges, or simply never sending a product. It means when you go to buy something, you buy based on who is legit, or good service.  Additionally it helps brick and mortar shops as they now are on the same ground as an online outfit.  The online shop end of the day may net more profit as they might have less overhead, but from a sales stand point, the store in your town has all the same chance of a sale as the online outfit.  Otherwise, the physical store is unlikely to be able to compete. Plus there will always be retailers who sell stuff at zero profit, or a loss, to try and make it up elsewhere, that store is taking a risk, but they are killing all the others who don't play that game at the same time.

Consumers make out as they don't have to think about the price, go hunting, or debate "do I trust this store", etc.  They shop with who they want to and don't have to think twice.

In the end, consumers get a stable process, stores both online and physical get to make a living, and the manufactures get to sell the products at a price that they can sustain their business, pay good wages, not have to outsource jobs, etc.

People keep trying to convince themselves that it's somehow jacking the price up, it's not. It's keeping prices at a proper, sustainable point, eliminated fraud and shady business.  It can also help keep resale prices stable/high, which helps you recoup cost if you need to sell.  A company could also just eliminate all dealer/3rd party sales and go 100% direct sales only.  But then folks would be un-happy about the loss of being able to buy something local, or their favorite store no longer selling it.  This gets the general benefit of direct sales, but spreads it around to more options where you buy.  Companies still are competing with their competition on price.

If only this would get to car sales, and the price is the price, end of story.

In the end, the issue here is only of a company (Festool), just not having a system in place to handle such issue. Obviously, just going holy rails only would be a great solution. Or Festool adjust their SKU/inventory system to have it be where you select a rail to come with a tool. The "Plus" package with rail is just say a fixed credit towards the price of a rail of your choice. So rail might be free, or if you select a fs3000 you get a discount on it.  Packages are generally dumb just for these reasons. They don't work out very well for folks.  Verses say offering a 10% discount on a CT when you buy X, Y, Z tool with it.  Much easier than selling tool X with vac Y and hoping that is a combo someone wants.

 

[mino]

In the end, the issue here is only of a company (Festool), just not having a system in place to handle such issue. Obviously, just going holy rails only would be a great solution. Or Festool adjust their SKU/inventory system to have it be where you select a rail to come with a tool. The "Plus" package with rail is just say a fixed credit towards the price of a rail of your choice. So rail might be free, or if you select a fs3000 you get a discount on it.  Packages are generally dumb just for these reasons. They don't work out very well for folks.  Verses say offering a 10% discount on a CT when you buy X, Y, Z tool with it.  Much easier than selling tool X with vac Y and hoping that is a combo someone wants.

This.

A general policy of "A retailer may give XY% discount on accessories bought with the tool" while simultaneously trimming the SKUs so the Plus/FS ones are dropped would be ideal.

On the other hand, IMO the +FS SKUs are really around to drive home the point to the prospective buyer that the rail is PART OF THE TOOL.
Especially in markets where tracksaws are not common I would imagine Festool would still want to drive home that a TS is not "an overpriced circular saw" by avoiding people buy it without a rail and then being underwhelmed because of that ...

IMO the time has come for all the /FS SKUs to switch to LR32 rails. But what do I know..

 

[afish]

All I know is Festool lost a sale not having the LR32 rail with the track saw or an option to upgrade it for the difference which I think was 10 bucks at the time.  I ended up getting the Makita and adding the LR32 rail later.  If it was a marketed option from the get go I would have bought the Festool instead of the Makita.  I didn't want to call around and try to negotiate this so just went the cheap and easy way.  I liked the Makita and have no issues but the LR32 option would have sweetened the pot enough for me to go green.

Is that a recent thing? Because that's exactly how I bought mine, September '19. I had no real need for it at the time, but when the dealer told me the price was the same either way, I said sure.

No, its been several years not sure exactly when.  I had read here that some dealers did it but dont ever remember anyone saying which dealers.  Truthfully if I would have been willing to put forth the time and effort Im sure I could have found some.  I usually shop online so if its not being advertised Im not going to waste time trying to call around and negotiate a better deal or option and Im sure I waited till the last minute to order so I probably needed it sooner rather than later.  I also agree with others there is NO reason why Festool should offer rails without holes.  Just put holes in all rails including the 3000 and why the heck make a 2424 holy rail that cant be used to cut 8' sheets and not make a 3000 rail with holes?  Seems like greed to me, just to try and get us to buy more rails?  Its this type of thinking that drives me crazy with Festool like the exact same sander RTS/DTS that makes you buy 2 sanders when the pads could/should have been made to switch out or a $600 dollar router with guide bushing that cant be centered easily. Ok, Rant over. I'm happy with all my Festools but I am careful about which I purchase and dont just go buying every green thing I see.  If you want me to spend 3x more for a tool it better impress me. I always knew I would be getting the LR32 one day but the rail combos always aggravated me.