Any Linux Users Here?

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Morning,
In my search for a better computer solution, I have in recent weeks tried out Windows Vista, considered the Mac OS, and I am now looking at Linux systems.  At first, I was thinking, "No way.  Linux is too techie for me."  But then I took a closer look at several distributions and was quite impressed.

I have not yet actually installed Linux on my system, and I'm hesitant to actually do it before I know all the facts.  So far, I've only run the test CDs.

I've posted questions to various Linux forums, but I'm curious about people here in this forum.  I trust FOG members' opinions on all matters -- tools, computers, and a lot of other things!

So, is anyone here using Linux, or at least giving it serious consideration?  What is your opinion about switching to Linux and dropping Windows/Mac altogether?

For those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about, Linux is an operating system that can take the place of Microsoft WIndows or Mac OS.  It is still somewhat experimental, but has come a long way in recent years.  The appeal of Linux is that it is a powerful operating system, developed in an open community.  That means it's free!

To get an idea of the various Linux options (a k a "distributions") jump over to this site:
Linux Distributions

From Distrowatch, you can get a taste for what Linux is all about by testing various distributions.

Matthew

 

[eweber]

Hi Matthew,

I have been using Linux at work for quite a while (8 years or so)on some of my systems.
For your desktop machine I would stay away from it unless you are willing to spend a lot of time hunting for updates, driver etc.

Linux came a long way on the desktop world and now provide some much improved user interfaces and a wide range of device drivers. A lot of hardware vendors now provide drivers for their devices so you don't always need to rely on good Samaritans to code them for you.

But the truth (in my opinion) is that even though the user interface is nicer it is still very clunky to use (try drag and drop between applications), it is not really standardized across applications so each of them have a different look and feel and usually do not interact smoothly.

As for device drivers, you can now most of the time find one that is compatible with your brand new device but be aware that they usually do not perform as good as their Windows or Mac counterparts both in term of speed and quality. In my line of work I have the opportunity to play with a lot of WebCam device and Sound Cards and Linux is always the black sheep.

Finally their is definitively a longer learning curve when trying to be confrotable with Linux as opposed to Mac and Windows. As soon as you leave the settings provided by the GUI interface you will have to use your text editor to edit some configuration files which is not that fun.

Now this is just my opinion. My next door work neighboor completely disagree and is a big fan of Linux.

Emmanuel

 

[Dan Lyke]

Emmanuel's right, there's always wacky hardware out there that doesn't work, on the other hand I recently got an HP laptop, and only had to do two things, check two marks, one to drive the video card better, one to make the built-in web cam work.

However, I haven't had a problem with drag and drop in the past few years (I use the Gnome environment), and I far prefer this to Windows (I've been doing some development work on XP and Vista recently) and the Mac (where I spend most of my time lately, developing applications).

And my sweety's been using Linux on her laptop for a year or so. She came from Windows, got the new laptop as a hand-me-down from a friend (free if I could get the data off of it...), said "I've had enough of this Windows crap", so I gave her an Ubuntu install CD, and I answered one question (because we were making the machine dual-boot). Far easier than the Windows install for the dual boot on that machine.

Yeah, Linux has its quirks, but what platform doesn't? If you run the basics, Firefox for your web browsing, OpenOffice for your word processing, spreadsheets and diagrams, Evolution or Thunderbird for your email, you'll probably not even notice that you're not running under Windows. Except that things will be noticeably faster and crash less.

Some applications aren't available under Linux, but then a lot of Linux apps either aren't available under Mac or Windows or are a royal pain in the tuchus to install.

If I could drop Windows and Mac from our house, I'd do it in a heartbeat. The only reason we keep them around is that I make money developing software for them. My partner runs Ubuntu with QuickBooks under Crossover/Office, OpenOffice, Opera for email and web browsing (although she's probably going to be switching to Firefox, just because of better plug-in integration). I run Ubuntu on two machines, I'm typing this on that aforementioned Ubuntu laptop right now.

 

[Ned]

I agree with what Dan said.

I've been running Linuxes off and on around here, there's usually at least one Linux box. 

Linux is way better than RT-11. 

At the moment I've got an Ubuntu server, and a dual-boot Ubuntu desktop.  I keep checking how Linux is doing, hoping to abandon Bill's creation at the earliest opportunity.  That day is definitely getting closer.

If the programming/configuration that you do is only PHP or other web stuff (the FOG underpinnings), you should be OK on Linux.

If you're happy with OpenOffice, and that's most of your work, you should be OK.

I'm focussed on Ubuntu right now because I wanted both desktop and server, and wanted as much commonality as possible.  (I no longer take the delight in learning yet another this or that that I once did.)

If you're looking for a desktop environment, check out Linspire.  In exchange for a small price (50 USD), some of the problems mentioned in this thread are dealt with.  Ubuntu is also a good choice.

Ned

 

[Dan Lyke]

Oh, I didn't make it clear up there, but my sweety/partner is a special education para-educator, ie: not a computer geek, and she's made sure that I let her manage the Ubuntu on her laptop because she doesn't want to be at the mercy of my admin skills. This was not something that she could do under Windows, I was constantly trying to un-befuddle things for her there.

I'd go for Ubuntu over Linspire because of the quality of the community and because so many developers are doing their own Ubuntu packaging these days. Follow the Medibuntu instructions and most plug-ins and media types will work just fine. And you've probably already used the Ubuntu live CD to make sure that the drivers for your hardware work.

Ned brings up a good poitn regarding application availability. Make a good list of what you need to deal with. I don't have SketchUp on Linux (although I've got Google Earth, so maybe Google will come through on SketchUp), and I've occasionally gotten good enough with Blender to actually make it useful, but then I walk away from it and I have to teach myself all over again.

If people are going to send you the execrable "Office Open" versions of Microsoft apps, then you've gotta have the latest version of Office from Microsoft. However I expect that OpenOffice.org will catch up shortly, Microsoft has already released a plug-in that's supposed to work for those document types through Novell, but I haven't gotten it to work. However, I also just trained the people who send me .doc or .xls files to actually send me those, rather than .docx, and life is good.

Krita or Gimp aren't Photoshop, but they've got their own advantages. I need to use Krita a little more because it actually deals with deeper than 8 bit images. And I also need to get a better handle on the Linux panorama software, as I've got a couple of scenes that I keep meaning to fire up Windows to stitch, but...

I'm still looking for a great photo manager, but my requirements on that are somewhat out of the ordinary, so I'm going to have to break down and use something else in the meantime. There are several solutions for basic tagging and organizing, and maybe it just means that I have to try to reorganize my existing repositories to work with the tools that are out there, instead of asking one that'll take my folder structures in place.

If your computer use is office apps (OpenOffice.org, or, if you swing that way, AbiWord and Gnumeric), organizing photos (digiKam and F-spot), editing photos (Krita, Gimp), basic home video stuff (Kino), web browsing (Firefox, Opera, Konqueror), email (Thunderbird, Evolution, and a gazillion others), basic vector drawing (OpenOffice.org, Inkscape), online chat and maybe some audio editing and keeping up with your checkbook, Linux will serve you fine.

If your uses go deeper than that, make sure you've got the applications lined up before you take the leap.

 

[Allen Akin]

I've been using and developing software for Linux for 11 years.  (Put my first Slackware Linux box together in June '96.)

While there certainly were problems with availability of drivers and media codecs in the past, manufacturer support and distributions like Ubuntu have pretty much eliminated that difficulty (at least in my experience).  They also make it trivially easy to add new software and keep your system up-to-date.

Linux does have a big advantage in cost.  I run one fully-paid-up supported system (Red Hat Enterprise Linux) and three others for free (a mix of Fedora and Ubuntu).

I'd say it all boils down to which applications you want to use and whether those (or compatible equivalents) are available on Linux.  Have you given thought to exactly what you need?

Allen

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Wow!  I had a feeling there were some Linux users here.  But I didn't know there was this much going on.

Emmanuel, Dan, Ned, Allen -- thanks for your input.  I feel I can open up now, technically, regarding Linux.  Clearly, I am amongst people who know a lot more than I do.

OK, here are the Linux distributions I've tested using Live CDs:

• Ubuntu
• Kubuntu
• Mint
• PCLinuxOS
• Freespire
• Knoppix
• Sabayon
• Gentoo
• Slackware
• OpenSUSE

There are so many Linux choices (too many for my poor non-geek head). 

I've heard through the Linux forums that KDE is a better environment than Gnome (more flexibility and room for expansion).  Not being a computer expert, I have no idea if this is true.  But it did help me narrow down my choices!

Based on the above-mentioned KDE requirement, I am leaning towards Kubuntu or PCLinuxOS.  I really like Ubuntu, but I learned that it uses Gnome.

For me, the move to Linux might be pretty natural.  I've already totally dropped Microsoft Office and switched to  OpenOffice; I dropped Internet Explorer long ago and switched to Firefox/Thunderbird (SeaMonkey); I use the GIMP for graphics; and this forum runs on a Linux-friendly system.

Here is my breakdown of various considerations...

Partitioning Phobias:
My main holdup is dealing with partitioning.  Running the Live CDs reveals a very nice Linux environment.  So I start the installation process, and every time I get to the partition stage I freeze.  PCLinuxOS has the friendliest installation program, in my opinion, but still the partition questions leave me puzzled.

Hardware Issues:
The video card on my desktop doesn't work quite right in Linux, and I can't seem to get Linux to recognize my main (C hard drive.  This may just be because I have not fully installed the software (I was hoping the Live CDs would reveal the C: drive).

Hardware Success:
The good news is, Linux easily recognizes my external hard drives, my thumb drives, it picks up my Canon digital camera perfectly, my HP Photosmart printer works great using CUPS, and my Epson scanner actually works better in Linux than it does in Windows.  Even running the LiveCD, the system starts up faster in Linux than in Windows XP (pretty amazing when you think about that -- running an entire operating system from a CD).

Hardware Question Marks:
I have yet to burn CDs or test my home network in Linux.  I have yet to download new software using Firefox in Linux.  I've run the Live CDs from my desktop (a Compaq Presario), but I have yet to run them on my Sony Vaio laptop.  But I've heard that Vaios are great with Linux.  (Actually, this is one of my reasons for hesitating on the Mac -- I really like the design of the Vaios, even more than Macs.  There's something uncomfortable, for me, about the MacBook Pro design).

Another question mark is my iPod.  As you probably know, iTunes does not run in Linux, so I have to find an alternative.  I've played with Amarok, but am not yet used to it.  I'm also toying around with RockBox, which replaces the firmware in the iPod.

These are the things I've been thinking about over the past couple of weeks as I consider an operating-system change.

Matthew

 

[Ned]

This may be of interest:

Canonical and Linspire Announce Technology Partnership

 

[Dan Lyke]

I too have heard good things about KDE, so I'd say go with Kubuntu. I've only used Gnome, but if the underlying stuff works as well it's gotta be good.

Partitioning wise: On modern hardware dedicate a gig or two for swap and everything else for your root partition. You can use the ntfs-3g module with a little extra effort, and it seems to let me write back to my NTFS Windows partitions, so you can always just use that data 'til you make the full change.

Hardware: Lay a little bit more info on us. There's no reason Linux should be missing your C drive. Video stuff is probably a matter of starting with the stock install and figuring out the right extra video driver module.

I'm not surprised that your scanner works better under Linux, wouldn't be the first time I'd experienced that. Burning and networking should work just fine, although every once in a while there are issues with the kernel figuring out the wireless driver stuff.

Can't speak to your iPod, Apple keeps doing their best to try to lock Linux users out of that, Linux users keep figuring out ways around Apple. I personally use a $20 inVision MP3 player that just looks like a USB drive to Linux.

 

[Allen Akin]

Everything Dan said looks right to me, so I won't have much to add.

OK, here are the Linux distributions I've tested using Live CDs: ...

Fedora works well, too.

I've heard through the Linus forums that KDE is a better environment than Gnome (more flexibility and room for expansion).

I prefer KDE (and do most of my GUI development using the Qt toolkit, which is the foundation of KDE).  However, Gnome is fine, and most distributions nowadays let you install both and switch between them to try them out.  (If I remember correctly, the Kubuntu website mentions that you can do this by downloading Ubuntu and then installing the KDE packages.)

My main holdup is dealing with partitioning.

Installing any modern OS can be challenging, which is why most people stick with the one that was preinstalled on their computer.

Are you planning to preserve what's already on your hard disk, or wipe it clean and start from scratch?

Would you feel comfortable buying a spare hard disk and installing that rather than modifying your existing disk?

The video card on my desktop doesn't work quite right in Linux...

It's possible the card isn't supported fully (though that's unlikely).  Do you know which card you have?

Another problem I've seen, particularly in laptops, is that the installer doesn't recognize the native resolution of an LCD display.  This is usually fixable by running the appropriate control-panel application and manually informing it of the type and/or size of display.

...and I can't seem to get Linux to recognize my main (C hard drive.

I haven't seen this before, so I'm out of ideas at the moment.  Maybe someone else will have a suggestion.

Another question mark is my iPod.  As you probably know, iTunes does not run in Linux, so I have to find an alternative.

You're way ahead of me on that.  ;D

Allen

 

[poto]

I've been using unix and then linux for about as long as I can remember. In the bad old days, I used a Mac in parallel with my unix box (Sun workstations) - the Mac for word processing, the unix box for number crunching (I do a lot of numerical modeling). There was a transition period when you could get a Mac emulator for a unix box, then - oh joy! - the new Mac OS came out with unix as its base. I now only have Macs. Anything that runs on linux or unix runs on the Mac. I use the gnu software resources for lots of apps, but have the portability and accessibility offered by the Mac. It's the perfect combination, as far as I'm concerned. My lab is mainly populated by Macs, and new students and postdocs who are PC-based quickly switch over to the Mac platform. In my opinion, it's definitely the best of both worlds.

Poto

P.S. I'm running Red Hat linux on a Dell dual processor, but nobody wants to use it anymore. The Mac is easier and just as fast...

 

[cparson]

I'd have to second the Mac.  I have used many operating systems through the years, but most recently Windows XP, Linux, and Mac OS X.  I think poto was very much right about it being the "best of both worlds", as it combines a friendly user interface like windows, with a solid, stable core like linux.  I've found that instead of my windows or linux desktop, I'm consistently using the Mac when I just want to use a computer.

Price is, of course, the downside... as you'd be buying new hardware.  Linux would certainly be a good alternative, but you'll probably have to be prepared to get more into the guts of the system, which may involve learning more about things like filesystems and kernel modules (likely problems with seeing your c: drive, and getting your video card to fully work, respectively).

The good thing is, there are plenty of resources out there to help with Linux questions.  If not a Mac, I'd go with Ubuntu (Gnome) or Kubuntu (KDE) due to their relative ease of use and extensive community support (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/).  It sounds like you'd get plenty of help with specific questions from people here as well. 

Between Ubuntu and Kubuntu, which one really just comes down to your preference on the user interface.  You can run applications written for KDE or Gnome in either version, although they won't "fit in" with the graphical style of everything else.

You've already tried the LiveCDs, so that gives you a pretty good idea what the experience will be like.  Some stuff won't work.  Some stuff will.  Some things will be easier, some harder.  This is going to apply for what you have now, as well as any additional hardware you buy in the future.  So I would suggest that, if you're frustrated with your experience with the Live CDs you should look elsewhere, either staying with XP, or trying a Mac.  If you're reasonably happy with how things have gone, and are willing to spend some time learning more about your computer in order to get things working properly, then staying with Linux will certainly save you a chunk of cash, which of course can be spent on more festool.

 

[cparson]

You probably already know this..  Allen also implied it, but to put it straight out there...  partitioning your hard drive (as opposed to partition editing) will delete all of the data on that hard drive.

Although somewhat incomplete, Ubuntu has a pretty good plain(ish)-english partitioning help site at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowtoPartition that walks you though editing your existing partitions.  If you really want to get into the nuts and bolts, wikipedia is typically a very good resource for technical information,  see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_partitioning.

If you have any specific questions about getting everything up and running, I'm sure anyone here would be willing to help.

@Allen:

...installer doesn't recognize the native resolution of an LCD display.  This is usually fixable by running the appropriate control-panel application...

Or there's always:
Modeline "1024x768@72" 81.13 1024 1056 1360 1392 768 783 792 807
:'( :'(

 

[poto]

cparson wrote: "Price is, of course, the downside... as you'd be buying new hardware..."

There's some small irony in noting that Mac's are more expensive ... on a Festool owner's group site! I'd say we share a recognition that you get what you pay for, and we're willing to afford the best tools because we know they'll allow us to do the best job. I think that's true of computers, too.

Poto

 

[Eli]

Well, first of all Matthew, I don't know where you get off saying you're no computer expert. I mean there's experts and then there's experts. The stuff you do for this website would do my head in.

We have four Macs in my house now, my wife is a graphic Designer and she is really no expert, so I have to fix everything. I really don't know my way around a computer, but the Macs are really easy to deal with. It helps to have one online with one while I'm fixing another, the knowledge base is pretty good. I have *Never* sat down to a PC without freezing it up within a minute or two. I have no idea why. Never had a Mac freeze, never had a virus, never had one down for more than two days for service. YMMV.

Get Applecare support on whatever you buy, especially if it's a less than year old model. I consider it part of the price, but it's well worth it. That will cover your peripherals used with the machine as well, so your ipods and monitors, etc.

 

[Dave Rudy]

Well, first of all Matthew, I don't know where you get off saying you're no computer expert. I mean there's experts and then there's experts. The stuff you do for this website would do my head in.

We have four Macs in my house now, my wife is a graphic Designer and she is really no expert, so I have to fix everything. I really don't know my way around a computer, but the Macs are really easy to deal with. It helps to have one online with one while I'm fixing another, the knowledge base is pretty good. I have *Never* sat down to a PC without freezing it up within a minute or two. I have no idea why. Never had a Mac freeze, never had a virus, never had one down for more than two days for service. YMMV.

Get Applecare support on whatever you buy, especially if it's a less than year old model. I consider it part of the price, but it's well worth it. That will cover your peripherals used with the machine as well, so your ipods and monitors, etc.

Eli,  I knew there was something I really liked about you.  I have had exactly the same experience.  Funny, when I tell my PC buddies, they get a kind of blank stare and say something like "Gee, that doesn't happen to me".  Kind of like talking to some people about how successful they are in the Stock Market!

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Well, first of all Matthew, I don't know where you get off saying you're no computer expert. I mean there's experts and then there's experts. The stuff you do for this website would do my head in.

Believe me when I tell you, I had no idea what I was in for when I dove into creating a forum.  The old Yahoo platform did everything for me.  Of course, what it did for me was not good enough.  At this point, I have given myself a crash course in database design, MySQL tables, reading and editing PHP code (sometimes, I can't even believe I'm writing this).  I've posted hundreds of stupid questions on the SMF help forums when I didn't understand something, and took notes so I don't make the same mistake twice.

I'm also happy with the Web host for our forum -- an outfit called CharlottezWeb.

I still insist, I'm no expert.  But I have learned that a lot of what at first seems impenetrable turns out to be manageable.

Kind of reminds me of that hilarious line from Sondheim's "Into the Woods."  How does it go..."When I first appear, I seem mysterious, but in time you'll see I'm nothing serious."

Matthew

 

[Matthew Schenker]

cparson wrote: "Price is, of course, the downside... as you'd be buying new hardware..."

There's some small irony in noting that Mac's are more expensive ... on a Festool owner's group site! I'd say we share a recognition that you get what you pay for, and we're willing to afford the best tools because we know they'll allow us to do the best job. I think that's true of computers, too.

Poto

I agree there is some irony in that.  Then again, let's keep in mind that this forum is built on open-source applications (SMF is free software, developed by a community of volunteers), which is why I am so seriously considering Linux (which is also open-source).  I've had such positive experiences with the open-source community in a variety of situations.

I know a lot of people like Macs, and I like the software.  But I don't quite like the design of the MacBooks.  If I can get the functionality of the Mac in the design I like, then I'd have the best of both options.

Matthew

 

[Dan Lyke]

I know a lot of people like Macs, and I like the software.  But I don't quite like the design of the MacBooks.  If I can get the functionality of the Mac in the design I like, then I'd have the best of both options.

I use a MacBook Pro for my primary job. When it came time to get a personal laptop I didn't go with Mac for a variety of reasons, some of which being that OS/X is falling behind Linux for geeks like me (on the Mac I have to download and compile apps, on Ubuntu I click a checkbox), but a big portion of which revolves around my distaste for Apple's hardware and design aesthetic.

I got an HP laptop that's nearly half the cost of the Apple of the same size, runs most of my apps faster, and the mouse pad and keyboard feel better and it's got little touches, like the lockout button for the mousepad, that make me reach for it over the Apple.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Dan,
When I first considered switching from the Windows platform, I took a serious look at Macs.  Based on the image I had in my mind about Macs, based mostly on marketing I suppose, I went in assuming that the MacBook would be designed better.  I was surprised when the design was not comfortable to use.  Of course, a lot of this is personal taste.

I took another look at Vista the other day and I really would like to exit the Windows platform before I am forced to use that system.

Again, the advantage of Linux is that I might be able to get the stability of the Mac platform, but use whatever computer design I choose.  I'm partial to the Sony Vaios.

Matthew