Any Linux Users Here?

Hi Matthew,

On the flip side, Vista adoption seems pretty slow (at least in the entreprise market) so you can always stick with XP for a while and not miss much.

Microsoft is supposed to end its XP support in 2009 and its extended support in 2014.
Which means that at least till 2009 most devices and softwares will be compatible.

By then there will probably be new service packs for Vista, and things should be a little smoother  ::)

Emmanuel
 
Matthew -
Is there anything still preventing you from backing up everything on either your laptop or desktop, and doing an install of whichever LiveCD you liked the best? 

You had mentioned hesitating at the partitioning step, and waiting until you knew more about linux before proceeding...  I really think this is one of those "best learned by doing" things.  Give it a shot.  You'll probably screw something up, but you'll have learned in the process, and it doesn't take long to redo the installation (unless you're bootstrapping gentoo... but friends don't let friends bootstrap gentoo).

If you can, it's definitely easier to dedicate the entire hard disk to linux.  I believe most installers at this point give you the option to automatically partition if you're using the entire disk for linux.  Just make sure - even if you're leaving your windows partition alone and installing linux in free space - to back up anything you don't want to lose to your other computer, an external USB hard drive, etc.  I've destroyed a few too many partition tables, and rebuilding by hand is not something you want to do  :D  I think the tools available now are much, much safer, but you'll want to have that security blanket regardless.

Once you have the system booting linux, it should just be a matter of searching the web (or asking here) for any issues you run into.  This is easier on more widely used distributions, and I'd suggest Ubuntu or any variation thereof as having an active and supportive community.

Also, one last thing...  make sure you know where your windows install CD and CD Key are, just in case things go horribly wrong.  You don't want to be up until 4am tearing your house apart looking for that silly CD.

not that i have any experience with that sort of thing...  ;)
 
Matthew,

Don't give up on the Mac.

1st, have you tried both the 12' and the 15"?  (the keyboards are different)
2nd, I know it may seem counterintuitive with a laptop, but if most of your computing is within a small distance (your house for example) just use a keyboard -- the mac works seamlessly with any bluetooth keyboard or usb, of course.

HTH

Dave
 
Dave Rudy said:
Matthew,

...have you tried both the 12' and the 15"?  (the keyboards are different)

Yes, I've tried both.  My reactions (and again, this is all so user-specific)...
The 12" (13"?) is unusable for lengthy writing.  What a weird design.  The 15" is nicer, but the keys seem oddly small or something.  I'm comparing it to the Sony Vaio and the Dell laptops I have used.

OK, this is starting to get into some Mac esoterica!

I'm still open to different options, and I am actually testing all three systems.  Still don't know where I'll end up.

Matt
 
cparson said:
Matthew -
Is there anything still preventing you from backing up everything on either your laptop or desktop, and doing an install of whichever LiveCD you liked the best?

I started doing this with Kubuntu and PCLinuxOS, but I got stuck at the partitioning phase of each one.

cparson said:
You had mentioned hesitating at the partitioning step, and waiting until you knew more about linux before proceeding...  I really think this is one of those "best learned by doing" things.  Give it a shot.  You'll probably screw something up, but you'll have learned in the process, and it doesn't take long to redo the installation (unless you're bootstrapping gentoo... but friends don't let friends bootstrap gentoo).

If you can, it's definitely easier to dedicate the entire hard disk to linux.  I believe most installers at this point give you the option to automatically partition if you're using the entire disk for linux.  Just make sure - even if you're leaving your windows partition alone and installing linux in free space - to back up anything you don't want to lose to your other computer, an external USB hard drive, etc.

It's possible I could try it out on my laptop, after backing everything up.  My desktop is my base computer, and my laptop is a mobile, working copy of many of my most important files.  So if I installed Linus on my laptop, and something went wrong, I could recover fairly easily.  Yes, I have all the recovery disks for the laptop!  I know what you mean about hunting down for that disk you knew you had but suddenly can't locate.

Regarding "bootstrapping gentoo" I won't make that mistake, since I don't even know what it means!  I looked at Gentoo, but decided against it in favor of Kubuntu or PCLinuxOS.

Matthew
 
How about buying a second laptop drive and a USB enclosure? At the very least you end up with a mobile backup device, but if you could just swap the laptop drive out (I'm assuming that, like me, your laptop ends up being where you do most of your work) then partitioning would be a no-brainer, *and* you'd get the knowledge that if everything went inside out you could just swap the old drive back in.

Yeah, it's some money you wouldn't otherwise necessarily spend, but it'd get you over your fears, save you from re-installing Windows if you don't like Linux, give you all of your documents on another piece of media (always a good idea), and in the grand scheme of things doesn't really cost that much.
 
Dan,
Do you mean to boot Linux from an external hard drive?  You're right, that would be the safest approach.  I happen to have a somewhat new 80GB external drive that might be perfect for this.  I didn't know you could boot Linux from an external drive (silly me for not thinking of this).

Matthew
 
Matthew Schenker said:
...I didn't know you could boot Linux from an external drive .

Matthew,

I was dubious, but did a bit of googling.  Look at

GRUB on a Stick

Before the Aussies get too excited, this article is not about some bizarre outback fauna on a skewer, but rather the GRand Unified Bootloader run from a USB thumb/flash drive.

This sounds really slick.  Should work on a USB-connected hard drive just as well.

Though the article describes GRUB on the USB drive itself, very likely what you want is to install GRUB on your internal hard drive.  It would add an extra step at boot time, namely offering you a menu of OSs.  It can be set to default to Windows after a few seconds without hearing from you, so it's no more effort to get to your "normal" configuration.

The news to me is that apparently GRUB can address USB drives.  I haven't tried it, and I've told you everything I know on the subject.  Hope somebody can fill in the details, because this capability would be nifty.

Ned
 
Ned,
Thanks for explaining GRUB.  Several people in the Linux technical forums mentioned GRUB, but I could never figure out what the were talking about.  They would always start talking about it from the perspective of someone who already understands it (which is one of the challenges for any non-techie trying to enter a software discussion).

Actually, looking at the GRUB on a Stick Web site, I still would not understand what GRUB is unless you explained it to me!  Actually, I still can't figure out what I'm supposed to actually do to install GRUB.

Anyway, being able to boot from an external drive would help with partitioning, since I would not have to worry about this issue any more.

Can you tell me what the latest version of GRUB is?  I've been doing some searches, and it seems that 1.9.5 is the latest one, which was released in October 2006.

Thanks again,
Matthew
 
Accurately describing what GRUB does gets into a lot of technical details, so some of this will only be half-truths in the pursuit of making it understandable.  There's some background information that you may already know all or some of, but i'll try to give a high level description of everything just in case.  I don't want to come off as condescending - I'm just not sure what all you already know :)

When you first turn on your computer, control first goes to some code called the BIOS that sits on a chip integrated into the motherboard (The motherboard being the piece of hardware that coordinates the communications between all the other hardware - the processor, hard drive, cd-rom, etc.).  The BIOS will usually do some checks to make sure various other pieces of hardware are working correctly, and then passes off control to a bootloader.

The bootloader is software that sits on part of your hard drive that is set aside for this specific purpose, called the Master Boot Record (or MBR).  Your windows XP machine has a bootloader installed right now (called NTLDR), which once the computer powers up, tells it to run windows.  GRUB is another bootloader, but it does a little more than NTLDR.  Instead of just starting windows, it allows you to select which operating system you want to run.  Like NTLDR, it's installed on the MBR of a hard drive.

Both your internal and external hard drive have an MBR.  Right now, your internal hard drive has NTLDR on the MBR, and most likely the MBR on your external hard drive is empty.

If you want to go the multiple-OS route, this all leaves you with two options:

1.  Overwrite NTLDR on your internal hard drive with GRUB.  You can then install linux on your external hard drive, and GRUB will let you choose between running windows on your internal hard drive, or linux on your external.  Depending on the distribution, you may need to configure GRUB by hand to tell it where your operating systems are - which then gets into a discussion on hard disk partitioning which I won't get into until necessary.

2.  Leave NTLDR alone, and install GRUB on the MBR of your external drive.  This has the benefit of not touching anything on your internal hard drive.  The downside is, you'll need to tell the BIOS that you want to use the MBR on the external hard drive isntead of the internal one.  How you do this depends on which BIOS your system is running, but it's usually a matter of hitting a specific key when you first turn on the computer, which brings you into the BIOS option menu.  Somewhere, there should be an option along the lines of "boot from" or "select bootable device", where you can select which MBR the BIOS will pass control to on startup.  The exact steps of doing this are dependent on which BIOS your system uses.

The easiest to set up would still be to dedicate the entire internal hard drive to linux.  GRUB will still be used, but it will function more like NTLDR in that it will just start linux, and the installer of whichever distribution you use should be able to automatically configure GRUB for you.  You won't need to change anything in the BIOS, because you will be using the same MBR as you are today, it will just hold GRUB instead of NTLDR.

Reinstalling windows XP will automatically overwrite the MBR with NTLDR and get you back to a windows-only system, so you always have a safety blanket if things go wrong.

This is a lot of information, but hopefully it's relatively understandable, and knowing some of the details should make things more comfortable as you're doing the set up.  If this has been at all helpful, I'd certainly be willing to do something similar for hard disk partitioning, since that seemed to be a source of apprehension.

If not, let me know and I'll stop cluttering the thread with this silliness  ;D
 
cparson,
Excellent explanation of the technicalities involved in this.  Thank you very much!  Yes, I knew what BIOS is, and I knew about a couple of other things you mentioned.  But now I get the connections and how it all fits into a Linux installation scenario.

My idea is to install GRUB to replace the Windows bootloader.  I want to have my computer start up and present the choice of either booting up Windows or Linux.

I'd have Linux on an external hard drive which is 100% dedicated to Linux.  Now, that means I won't need to worry about partitioning, right?

Matthew
 
I was actually thinking swap out the hard drive for the one in the laptop, and put the windows drive that used to be in the laptop in an external enclosure so you could copy its documents off. On most laptops this actually isn't a very difficult operation, often even easier than on desktops (no master/slave jumpers to configure)

Doesn't work for dual boot, but means you can diddle with the new hard drive to your heart's content without worrying about what you might be doing to your existing installs.
 
Dan,
But it sounds like, with GRUB, I might not need to swap the drive out of the computer.  If it works as I am imagining, I'd have the option of booting up from either the internal drive, or the external drive (with Linux).  Please tell me if I got it wrong (which can often be the case when I am struggling to understand computer matters).

Of course, after using Linux for a little while, I might very well decide to make it my main operating system, in which case I would no longer need a dual-boot system.  But my guess is, we are still a couple of years away from having a complete replacement for Windows.

Matthew
 
Dan,
I understand.

Anyway, I still can't figure out how to install GRUB!  I've been on loads of Linux sites that start from the assumption that you know how to install it, even sites that offer a "guide to installation."

If someone could point me towards a set of directions for installing GRUB, that would be great!

Actually, let me take a step back -- can someone tell me where I can download a GRUB zip or ISO file?

Thanks,
Matthew
 
There's a huge caveat...  I knew I was missing something.

Since GRUB needs to read configuration files from your linux partition, you would need to always have the external hard drive plugged in, whether you wanted to boot linux or windows.  Of course that might not be a problem if you already have it that way. 

Alternatively, you could go with option 2, or go with Dan's suggestion and swap out the drives.  Like Dan said, swapping out the drives really reduces both the complexity and risk.  You might want to start with that, and once you get everything working that way, you can move on to a more complicated setup.  Things always get tricky when there's a drive that may or may not be there.  If this was my first installation, that's the way I would go.

Anyway, I still can't figure out how to install GRUB!
You don't install GRUB yourself.  It's included with the distribution, and is installed automatically as part of the setup.
 
cparson,
For me, actually, it's better to run Linux on an external drive, since I work on the desktop a lot.  Also, I'd be able to take the drive back and forth between the laptop and the desktop.  I have one of those "pocket" hard drives (an 80GB model from Lacie).

Aha, GRUB is part of the installation!!  That makes sense.  But still, I don't see how to make GRUB recognize the external hard drive as the place where the Linux operating system resides.  When I ran the installation program on PCLinuxOS and Kubuntu, it always tried to partition my main (C:) hard drive.  I'll have to look at the installation programs again.  Maybe I missed a step.

Matthew
 
Matthew Schenker said:
cparson,
For me, actually, it's better to run Linux on an external drive, since I work on the desktop a lot.  Also, I'd be able to take the drive back and forth between the laptop and the desktop.  I have one of those "pocket" hard drives (an 80GB model from Lacie).

Aha, GRUB is part of the installation!!  That makes sense.  But still, I don't see how to make GRUB recognize the external hard drive as the place where the Linux operating system resides.  When I ran the installation program on PCLinuxOS and Kubuntu, it always tried to partition my main (C:) hard drive.  I'll have to look at the installation programs again.  Maybe I missed a step.

Matthew

I've been following this thread for a bit, now.

If I were you, I would just run a dual boot installation of Ubuntu (or Kubuntu, if you prefer) along side WinXP to your existing internal HDD by using the live CD install process. Installing a standalone GRUB is not something that I've ever heard about. I also don't see any reason for you to use the entire internal HDD for Linux. It's not necessary. You could try set set up to boot from an external HDD, but that requires a bit more knowledge and manual intervention in the installation process.

It seems your big concern is the HDD partitioning step. You are justified in being cautious about this, but it will work properly as long as you don't overwrite your existing WinXP partition(s). As always, you should backup any important data before partitioning. The live CD install will make this a relatively simple process.

There is a fairly good set of instructions at GraphicalInstall. The key thing to do is to make sure you choose the options to resize an existing partition to make room for the new Linux partitions. You should leave enough space on you WinXP partition for future files on that partition. For your Linux partitions, I believe you need at least 4 GB. I would allow at least twice that, but more if you can.  You don't want to choose the options to use (ie, erase) the entire disk for you new Linux partitions. I think it would be a good idea to defrag your WinXP installation on the existing HDD prior to the resize process (but, not absolutely necessary). The confirmation dialog will let you cancel out of the install prior to beginning the partitioning if you feel unsure of what you are doing. Just make a note of what you did and what the install said it was going to do. You could then come back here to ask for more advice.

If you following the instructions carefully, you should have WinXP and Linux installed. And, GRUB will have been installed, allowing you set select which OS to run at boot time. HTH.

David
 
David,
daveg said:
It seems your big concern is the HDD partitioning step. You are justified in being cautious about this, but it will work properly as long as you don't overwrite your existing WinXP partition(s). As always, you should backup any important data before partitioning. The live CD install will make this a relatively simple process.

I get passed the first phase, where I choose to resize the current Windows partition.  But then things get weird.

I've heard many people say that it's simple process, but when I did it the choices I was offered made no sense at all.  Here are the choices I was offered at the partitioning screen, when it asks me to choose a drive to partition:
hda1c
hda1d
hda2d
0
0)
(0

I don't know which of those I'm supposed to choose.

Matthew
 
Matthew

Aren't there radio buttons (a list of them) that read something like

*  "Guided - resize ... partition #1 ... (hda1)... and use free space "

*  "Guided - use entire disk ..."

*  "Manual"

Are you using the graphical install?

Another thing, I would remove any external flash drives, etc during the installation.

David
 
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