Any Sawstop owners out there?

[HowardH]

At the risk of starting a flame war, I currently use the Ryobi BT3100 as my table saw and want to upgrade to a 3hp model.  I know, I know, many of us dedicated Festoolies have retired the TS in favor of the guide rail system.  I love my TS55 and recently purchased a 1900mm rail to go with my 1400 so I can break down sheet goods.  As many threads have shown, there is still a place in the shop for a TS for many purposes.  That little BT just doesn't cut it anymore (pardon the pun).  Looking at the PM2000 and the SS.  SS sells safety and their product is also extremely well made and heavy duty, enough so for a lifetime of usage.  Like the PM too, especially since it is almost half the cost.  The SS is a lot of saw and a lot of $$$.  Santa won't be lugging it around this year but I can always buy myself a belated present at any time of the year.  ;D  What do you guys think?

 

[Hotwheels]

Hello Howard,

I have 9 3/4 fingers and a SawStop. I wish I had the former before the latter. Prior to the SS I had a Powermatic 63A and then a Unisaw;. I was very happy with both saws and think they are fine products. After I lost my 1/4 index finger, I decided that for me, the cost of the SS in relation to (1) the ER and subsequent doctor bills (>7k) and (2) the loss of function from amputation of my left index finger tip made the SS purchase an easy decision.

Before I upgraded the PM 63 to the Unisaw, I considered the SS and said to myself "too much money.' After my incident, the dollar issue just seemed insignificant.

Everyone makes their own choice about the costs and benefits of using power tools and the potential outcomes of an accident. For me personally, as I look forward, there is always the potential for an accident and anything I can do to minimize the downsides of such an event is worth the cost, including investing is technology and tools such as Festool that decrease some of the risks. That is my experience and others may have a different view.

The other reason to buy a SS is the quality of the saw. The riving knife plus the overall build quality of the saw is very pleasing to me, I would buy the saw for those reasons alone. I think the PM 2000 and PM66 and other traditional cabinet saws are great tools. For me, the added safety value of the SS makes it worth the premium.

Let me know if you have any specific questions about the SS. There are others here that have the saw too and I am sure they may chime in.

I avoid all of the political arguments about patents, etc... and discussions in other forums about how owning a SS makes users complacent about safety. Trust me, having your finger amputated by a fast spinning, sharp saw blade is a reminder that anything can happen anytime. Fast spinning saw blades have no politics.

If you can take a measure of safety to mitigate the potential costs and you consider the whole range of actual costs of a potential accident and then throw in the quality of the saw.... well I have no regrets.....

JR

 

[brandon.nickel]

I've mentioned several times around here that I'm waiting for the SawStop contractor's model to come out.  If it's built half as well as the full-size version, it'll still beat all the other contractor's saw on the market (in my safety-biased opinion).  I have a hard time justifying the cost and floorspace of the cabinet saw when I use my Festool for large panels.  I'll use the SS for ripping and dados.  I just hope it has a nice long table (front to back).  My primary dislike of most of the "cheap" saws is that they skimp on the surface area.  I bought the Biesemeyer fence from Lowe's ($80) a few months ago) and I'm just waiting for a saw to put it on.

 

[HowardH]

my ryobi has a very small table and it is a very light saw.  If i push some stock through it an bit hard it can literally tip backwards. Not good.  Has the riving knife which is good but I still consider it a dangerous saw.  I'll just have to save up a few commission checks. Im ordering a Fuji Q4 on monday so there goes a little out of my budget.  Im hoping to be able to use my jointech smart fence on the SS.

 

[Overtime]

I also have a SawStop, a 3 hp with 52" table. I have had it for well over a year now and I am very pleased (to say the least) with it.  I am glad I made the purchase before the price increase and the shipping rate increases. And like John, I have no interest (but sometimes I can't resist) in the arguments and debates that are never ending on this.  In a way it's like the domino. Because the same results can be achieved by using another tool, it drives some people nuts (including me). Both tools are expensive and both are unique.

  Like most cabinet saws the machine is heavy and very stable. And like most (when properly set up) good saws it will make very good and accurate cuts.  A stable and ample powered table saw is a real pleasure to use. And when you add rollers and or outfeed tables it becomes even more. Add a router lift, why not ? 
  Stepping up from the Ryobi, this G1023SLX 10"  will, should produce the same results, and blow you away with the power, stability and accuracy.
  The Powermatic, or General or Delta even more so, or whatever, close to the same. The intent here is not to debate which brand is better  ;D , but only to point out the  benefits of a cabinet saw in general. Oh hell, did I say General International ? No , I said in general  ;D.
 
  The quality of the SawStop is very good, at the top of the pile. Some others have equal overall quality. Under the hood, the SawStop is a different animal, the trunnion assembly is unique as it contains the brake cartridge assembly and the riving knife mounting. The riving knife is the most noticeable feature that it has. Not to mention the patio deck size of the table top. The riving knife can be removed, and or replaced in seconds. It is a feature that clearly shows it's relevance when using the saw. Sweet !  If you have the opportunity to view the SawStop up close at a dealer that also sells another brand, you can see these details for yourself. 
  The brake cartridge; It's nice to know it's there. I hope I never need it. I wish it were on a jointer as I have mangled some flesh there.  There are two cartridge types, one for a regular 10" blade and one for a dado blade. Changing the cartridge and or blade set up is much less of a hassle than I had originally thought it would be. Changing blade configurations is no biggie, do it all the time, including zero clearance inserts.

  To buy or not to buy that is the question. The follwing is just my opinion. If you plan on having a shop and tools/machinery for a few years and then when you get older etc, pass them on to the youngsters, then a SawStop is not a bad idea. I don't think the company and technology is going anywhere but up.  If the cost is out of reach for now go for the Grizzly or Powermatic. Just having the riving knife on another saw would be a good option also.
  But no matter what, the fact remains that this is the only saw that even comes close to saving the operator from a potential disaster. No regrets, even if I never have an incident. Does a kickback count ?  : Nearly broke my hand.  :'(    Stuff Still happens.

 
 

       
     

 
 
   

 

[Mirko]

Patrick,
Did you get the kickback on the sawstop?

Mirko

 

[Overtime]

Hey Mirko,

Yes on the SawStop. Operator error.

I was cutting a piece of 1/4" plywood. I don't think I had the riving knife on, don't remember. The piece was about 8" x 12" long and I was basically ripping it in half to yield a 4" x 12" piece. Had the blade hight about 3/16" above material. Midway through the cut the material bumped - jambed for some reason ?  It jumped up on the blade, caught and shot back and hit my left hand. No binding between blade and fence. Piece was fed flush against fence.
  It did not take too long for me to work it out.

  The ply had a very slight bow on it and I had the board like this ^ pressing down with a little pressure it was flat.
  Into the cut, the board got hung up at the far end of the zero clearance insert. The "insert was a hair low" on the outfeed right side and the cut slot on the ply (with the downward pointed bow) found that spot and bumped into it.
Other cuts were made just prior to this one and the low insert went unnoticed until this combination came along. An accident waiting to happen. The fix - about 1/8 th of a turn on the adjustment screw to raise that corner of the insert.

  Lesson # 1 or 1001  make sure that insert is set correctly.    Sloppy operator error.
 

 

 

[eweber]

To add to the discussion, I myself have a PM2000 which I purchase before the hype of the sawstop.
It is a very good saw and I have only a couple little annoying details to report.

I am not fully satisfied with the dust collection, there is a small flexible pipe inside that seem to kills the airflow (which by the way I just noticed is teared  ).
The riving knife is easy to change once setup but is a real pain to adjust at first.
My table top was not aligned with the blade. No biggie but it should have been done properly at the factory.

So in conclusion, I love my PM 2000 and don't really regret my purchase but if I were to purchase one now I would probably go for the sawstop. Not only I would get an amazing security feature which is priceless but maybe also a saw with better quality overall.

As a side not I had a similar experience in regard to the kickback. I tried to cut a small sheet of 1/4" ply that was bent. I released the pression by mistake and the ply managed to reach over the blade.

Emmanuel

 

[Woodenfish]

Lesson # 1 or 1001  make sure that insert is set correctly.    Sloppy operator error.

Lesson # 2 Don't rip material less than 18" long on a 10" tablesaw. A bandsaw is much safer when ripping shorties which most often times will become projectiles.

 

[CharlesWilson]

Lesson # 1 or 1001  make sure that insert is set correctly.    Sloppy operator error.

Lesson # 2 Don't rip material less than 18" long on a 10" tablesaw. A bandsaw is much safer when ripping shorties which most often times will become projectiles.

I think you can reduce the likelihood of projectile activity during these short rips by using a sled with material hold-down clamps.

 

[Eli]

I like a tall pushstick out of ply with a handsaw handle pattern and a little foot at the back bottom to push the stock. Cut right into it, rip the bottom clean when it gets too chewed, until there isn't any left. Trace handle onto new ply scrap. Repeat. Never had anything shoot at me through that.

 

[Mark Carlson]

If you can afford the sawstop then get it.  I upgraded to a cabinet saw a year before the sawstop came out.  I went with a General 650.  Very nice saw, maybe the best in its class but I'd really like a riving knife and the blade stoping feature.  I also have a Festool saw and guide rail but I use the cabinet saw way more and would never be without one. 

~mark

 

[Woodenfish]

Lesson # 3 Engage thy brain wisely or ye blade may greet thou smartly!

Push sticks, riving knives and electronic blade stoppers may help in certain situations but woodworking is inherently dangerous and no safety device is 100%. We can though respect the rim speed of the blade and consider what we are asking the saw to perform prior to making the cut and use leverage to our benefit of safety. Although the leading edge of the exposed saw blade is turning downward into the stock, the trailing edge is turning upwards with the continual presence of potential kickback. Only a long piece of stock will give you the leverage to hold down the leading edge of the board against the fence until a splitter or riving knife offer assistance as the push stick gives clearance to hour hand from the blade.  I do like CharlesWilson's tip on building a sled to hold those short pieces though and thank him for his suggestion.

I am by far no mathematician so take my equation for its cost. I calculate rim speed as Pi or 22/7 x 10 inch blade diameter x 4000 rpm blade speed divided by 12 inches, multiplied by 60 minutes then divided by 5280 feet per mile and get 119.05 mph or the maximum speed the kickbacked board may accelerate to.

Short narrow boards have too little points of leverage to make adequate leverage against the table and fence surfaces throughout the cut safely 100% of the time. In my opinion, even the SawStop will not protect its user in those operations. I think the SawStop technology and the riving knife are great improvements on a overall well designed saw, but by no means do these features eliminate injury risk of having limited tool knowledge, experience or poor operator judgement.    

 

[Matthew Schenker]

...I am by far no mathematician so take my equation for its cost. I calculate rim speed as Pi or 22/7 x 10 inch blade diameter x 4000 rpm blade speed divided by 12 inches, multiplied by 60 minutes then divided by 5280 feet per mile and get 119.05 mph or the maximum speed the kickbacked board may accelerate to.

I'm no mathematician, either!  All I know is, kickback happens far too fast to "get out of the way."

Short narrow boards have too little points of leverage to make adequate leverage against the table and fence surfaces throughout the cut safely 100% of the time. In my opinion, even the SawStop will not protect its user in those operations. I think the SawStop technology and the riving knife are great improvements on a overall well designed saw, but by no means do these features eliminate injury risk of having limited tool knowledge, experience or poor operator judgement.

Even before I owned any Festool tools, I never used a table saw for short, narrow pieces.  I used a bandsaw for those, and that's what I continue to do today.  In fact, as things evolve in my shop, my table saw gets less and less use, my Festool saw gets more and more use, and the bandsaw fills in the gaps, cutting those smaller pieces, better than any other tool.

Of course, a bandsaw is not foolproof either.

Matt

 

[TahoeTwoBears]

Hi Matthew,

I'm a bandsaw owner wannabe. Your last comment got my attention. What happens with bandsaws that you need to watch for? (other than the obvious of don't put fingers against the blade).

Does your CT keep up with the dust coming off the bandsaw?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Matthew Schenker]

I'm a bandsaw owner wannabe. Your last comment got my attention. What happens with bandsaws that you need to watch for? (other than the obvious of don't put fingers against the blade).

I love the bandsaw.  I started out with a cheap 10" model from Sears (thought I'd "give it a try"), then I moved up to a 14", and finally bought the new Powermatic 14".  I wrote an extensive review of this saw on Amazon (CLICK HERE).  I've never regretted having this saw in my shop, and it has saved me many times when there was an operation that no other tool could handle.  I've considered moving up to a larger one, but for some reason the 14" always seems more versatile to me.

I've been toying with designs for expanding the bandsaw table, to accommodate larger sheets.  Before I started buying Festool tools, I even entertained the idea of creating a table large enough to cut full 4x8 sheets on the bandsaw!!

What do you have to watch for?  Well, yes, you need to keep your fingers out of the line of the blade (of course, if a woodworker doesn't know that, he or she should not own ANY power tools)!  You do have to watch to make sure everything is set up right (blade guides, table angle, tension).  Make sure the blade is not installed backwards (you might laugh at this, but it's a common mistake for new bandsaw users).  Also, you have to work out the correct feed rate, which takes a bit of practice.

Does your CT keep up with the dust coming off the bandsaw?

Unfortunately, I do not have my CT hooked up to the bandsaw.  That's the one minus of the saw -- dust!  I have tried several different ways to control the dust from the bandsaw, but it seems no matter what I do it is rather inefficient.  I'd be very interested to hear from others what they do to control bandsaw dust in their shops.

Matt

 

[Fred West]

Matt, I have a MiniMax16 which is the most amazing bandsaw I have ever owned. It has a 13" resaw capacity without riser blocks and a 4.8 hp motor. As far as dust collection goes. I have it directly hooked into my dust collector and except for some ancillary dust above the blade the dust collector does a great job of keeping it clean. Fred

 

[Tezzer]

I love the bandsaw. 

Matt, if you are in love with your bandsaw then check out this thread and the "amazing" bandsaw jig thats made here in Australia. Its close to my favourite thing in the workshop and that includes all the festool gear. Its simply awesome and will turn your bandsaw in to the complete cutting machine ;Dhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=45678

[and i dont have any conection with the manufacturer]

 

[Fred West]

Tezzer, that looks great and I have contacted Frontline for some info. Thank you for posting this great looking jig. Fred

 

[Tezzer]

Tezzer, that looks great and I have contacted Frontline for some info. Thank you for posting this great looking jig. Fred

Fred, you wont be dissapointed If FWW ever done a review it would take off big time. As far as im concerned its the greatest jig i have ever come across in 17 years of woodworking. I use it "everyday" i just love it ;D