Anyone have the Jet Xacta Table Saw? Feedback would be great...

[Motown]

I am in the market for a table saw and thought I was going to go with a Powermatic PM2000 but after checking some of the specs on the Jet Xacta, single phase/5HP, I am really intrigued. I'd love to hear some feedback if you are using this saw? Thanks in advance.

 

[Birdhunter]

Suggest you look at the SawStop Industrial. I looked at the Powermatic and the Sawstop. I found the Sawstop to be a far superior piece of machinery.

 

[Motown]

What's your experience been with the blade change on the SawStop, that was the only negative that I saw? The weight, fit/finish & dust collection look pretty awesome.

 

[Scorpion]

I am in the market for a table saw and thought I was going to go with a Powermatic PM2000 but after checking some of the specs on the Jet Xacta, single phase/5HP, I am really intrigued. I'd love to hear some feedback if you are using this saw? Thanks in advance.

I had a Jet Xacta cabinet model.  Fantastic saw until, in a tired moment, I almost lost a finger.  Sold it and got a SawStop.  I like the simplicity of the Jet (no computer crap) but like my fingers more. 

 

[Motown]

Thanks for feedback Scorpion, glad you kept all of your digits! How would you compare the fit and finish of the two saws?

 

[jeh]

I have used (and owned) a fair number of Jet and PowerMatic tools and have found the PowerMatic to have better build quality. I have not looked recently but I would think that the PowerMatics have better specs that the Jet, if only because they are owned by the same company.

If you are considering the PM2000 take a look at the SawStop PCS or ICS. They are well-built top quality saws with the ability to save your fingers. I have had the PCS since it was first introduced many years ago (5 or 6 or maybe longer). Prior to that I owned a US made Delta Unisaw that I sold after getting a chance to test the PCS for Saw Stop prior to it's release.

Last week I had my first "finger save" (as SawStop calls it). I've been a table saw user for 25+ years and prior to last weeks save my only incident was a kick back that hit me in the wrist leaving a nasty cut and bruise. At the time I had a crappy, underpowered $300 table saw with a short fence and questionable build quality. I bought the Unisaw right after that happened and kept it until I bought the SawStop PCS.

There has been a lot of bad mouthing of SawStop's for their push to license their device to other tablesaw manufacturer's. The bottom line is that all tablesaws are dangerous and are probably the least expensive tool that is capable of the most damage. A shaper is right up there with it, but they are not readily available in the home stores for $99 and up and most homeowner's don't have a need for one. I am sure similar tactics have been used by other inventors of safety devices that have found there way into everyday items. I have read that other manufacturers are against implementing it, saying it is unnecessary, too costly, unproven, cost to replace, suffer from false trips (never happened to me), etc. They also say that blade guards are as effective. I agree to a point, but how many people actually use them. I see more saws without them than with and for those who use them SawStop provides one with their saws and offers another one with a dust collection port.

There also is a fair amount of misinformation on what happens when the safety device deploys:
-Blade is destroyed (not true, in my case, but blade needs to checked out by a sharpener)
-Replacement cartridge has be purchased (not true, if it is a finger save you get a free replacement)
-False tripping (never happened to me, and if you are sawing wood with a high moisture content you can bypass the safety device).

In the end even if you were to lose the blade and cartridge and had to pay for it so what. The cartridge is $70 and typical blade ranges from $60 to $150. The blade I was using was $130, so worse case I would be out $200, which is the cost of an ER visit for me. Adding in surgery to reattach (or amputate), the possibility of being permanently maimed, inability to work, etc. makes the decision easy.

If you have ever been in shop with older stationary machines you would notice that a lot of them have fully exposed innards (belts and pulleys) that could make a mess of a hand or finger. At some point it was decided to cover them up and I am guessing that a lot of people complained about because servicing them would be harder.

Bosch looks promising and will be at a significantly lower price point, but it is in no way as well built as any of the SawStop saws (except maybe their newly released job site saw). If I needed a job site saw I would buy the Bosch or the SawStop. Hopefully Bosch will license their solution or SawStop will be pressed to license theirs so that the price differential will come down and others can benefit from the additional safety measure.

 

[jeh]

What's your experience been with the blade change on the SawStop, that was the only negative that I saw? The weight, fit/finish & dust collection look pretty awesome.

The blade change is the same as other saws. The only difference is that you need to adjust the position of the blade brake due to slight variations in size of blades. The saw includes a gap gauge and allen wrench to make the adjustment.  When I switch blades I insert the gap gauge and in most cases it is spot on. If the gap is not right it takes a minute to make the adjustment. SawStop has their manuals online and they go into details regarding blade changes.

I should also note that Dado blades require the use of a different blade brake.

 

[Scorpion]

Thanks for feedback Scorpion, glad you kept all of your digits! How would you compare the fit and finish of the two saws?

Liked them both in that regard.  Equal?  I think the SawStop being black vs the Jet being cream gives the SawStop a psychological advantage.  The fence on the SawStop is a little nice though functionally they both work perfectly once dialed in.  The friction material on the SawStop is smooth laminate and I like it a little better though again the functional difference is negligible.  My Jet was a right tilt and my SawStop is left...wouldn't recommend a right tilt again. 

 

[Cheese]

The bottom line is that all tablesaws are dangerous and are probably the least expensive tool that is capable of the most damage. A shaper is right up there with it, but they are not readily available in the home stores for $99 and up and most homeowner's don't have a need for one.

[member=652]JimH2[/member]
In reference to your damage statement above, about a month ago I came across some very interesting data and posted this on the FOG:
"According to the CPSC (Consumer Product Safety Commission), the table saw retail market is $200-$400 million per year, while the cost of the injuries from table saws, is estimated by the CPSC to be $2.36 billion per year."

My question at the time was, and it still is, how can a particular segment of a market continue to be a profitable entity when the damage it causes is over 8X its market capitalization?
Now that's the definition of a loss-leader.

 

[Scorpion]

My question at the time was, and it still is, how can a particular segment of a market continue to be a profitable entity when the damage it causes is over 8X its market capitalization?
Now that's the definition of a loss-leader.

I think it's a multi-part problem that perpetuates it:

Saws aren't destroyed once they bite like dogs, they're sold to someone else and can bite again, some live for 50 years which keeps the industry weak(er) in relation to the damage cost.

Saw owners likely don't know/realize the cost of an incident until one occurs due to a false sense of safety.  I'm an incredibly careful machine user.  Of the machines I've owned the saw is not the one with the greatest risk in use though I treat it with the same respect.  That being said, I still got bit.

Saw owners buy the saw when they're awake and use the saw when they're tired. 

Saws aren't complicated machines, there's probably a lot to make on an average one.  Good ROI makes for products that are difficult to kill.

 

[jeh]

The bottom line is that all tablesaws are dangerous and are probably the least expensive tool that is capable of the most damage. A shaper is right up there with it, but they are not readily available in the home stores for $99 and up and most homeowner's don't have a need for one.

[member=652]JimH2[/member]
In reference to your damage statement above, about a month ago I came across some very interesting data and posted this on the FOG:
"According to the CPSC (Consumer Product Safety Commission), the table saw retail market is $200-$400 million per year, while the cost of the injuries from table saws, is estimated by the CPSC to be $2.36 billion per year."

My question at the time was, and it still is, how can a particular segment of a market continue to be a profitable entity when the damage it causes is over 8X its market capitalization?
Now that's the definition of a loss-leader.

As unbelievable as the numbers seem they may be right. I found a similar quote saying 40,000 injuries costing $2,000,000,000, which sounds unbelievable, but is only $50,000 per incident. Still seems like a high average, but an amputation or reattachment could easily exceed this number. Manufacturers make the saws and that's it. Damages resulting from using them is paid for by the end user (or their insurance company).

The move by Bosch will push Dewalt and others to come up with (or license) a solution or risk having them become loss leaders via lawsuits. I do see cheap tablesaws (sub $200 and certainly sub $100) will disappear and some companies will exit the tablesaw market.

Much like cars with their air bags, anti-lock brakes, backup cameras, safety glass, etc. all tablesaws will eventually get this type of safety device. A more timely example from the auto world is the sensors that detect and take action to avoid collisions. It's on the higher end cars now, but will trickle all the way down to the bottom.

I'm not pushing saw on to anyone. I made a risk assessment and bought one. While the risk of having an incident is relatively low the result of it happening can be costly and potentially life-changing. I paid up front versus paying after an accident with the added benefit of keeping all of my fingers and thumbs. It worked out for me and cost me a few band aids. Additionally I have met people with knicks all the way up to someone missing their index finger, part of their middle finger, and most of their thumb.

I watched the video on the Bosch and it is a good implementation. The 2-shot cartridge is supposed to list for $100 (might sell for $75 as their list prices are fluff) and you don't have to set the blade aside for inspection/sharpening or purchase a new one. The only negative I see about the quick reset is that it might encourage a user to get right back to sawing versus standing down for a day to rethink their technique.

 

[jeh]

The bottom line is that all tablesaws are dangerous and are probably the least expensive tool that is capable of the most damage. A shaper is right up there with it, but they are not readily available in the home stores for $99 and up and most homeowner's don't have a need for one.

[member=652]JimH2[/member]
In reference to your damage statement above, about a month ago I came across some very interesting data and posted this on the FOG:
"According to the CPSC (Consumer Product Safety Commission), the table saw retail market is $200-$400 million per year, while the cost of the injuries from table saws, is estimated by the CPSC to be $2.36 billion per year."

My question at the time was, and it still is, how can a particular segment of a market continue to be a profitable entity when the damage it causes is over 8X its market capitalization?
Now that's the definition of a loss-leader.

As unbelievable as the numbers seem they may be right. I found a similar quote saying 40,000 injuries costing $2,000,000,000, which sounds unbelievable, but is only $50,000 per incident. Still seems like a high average, but an amputation or reattachment could easily exceed this number. Manufacturers make the saws and that's it. Damages resulting from using them is paid for by the end user (or their insurance company).

The move by Bosch will push Dewalt and others to come up with (or license) a solution or risk having them become loss leaders via lawsuits. I do see cheap tablesaws (sub $200 and certainly sub $100) will disappear and some companies will exit the tablesaw market.

Much like cars with their air bags, anti-lock brakes, backup cameras, safety glass, etc. all tablesaws will eventually get this type of safety device. A more timely example from the auto world is the sensors that detect and take action to avoid collisions. It's on the higher end cars now, but will trickle all the way down to the bottom.

I'm not pushing saw on to anyone. I made a risk assessment and bought one. While the risk of having an incident is relatively low the result of it happening can be costly and potentially life-changing. I paid up front versus paying after an accident with the added benefit of keeping all of my fingers and thumbs. It worked out for me and cost me a few band aids. Additionally I have met people with knicks all the way up to someone missing their index finger, part of their middle finger, and most of their thumb.

I watched the video on the Bosch and it is a good implementation. The 2-shot cartridge is supposed to list for $100 (might sell for $75 as their list prices are fluff) and you don't have to set the blade aside for inspection/sharpening or purchase a new one. The only negative I see about the quick reset is that it might encourage a user to get right back to sawing versus standing down for a day to rethink their technique.

The CPSC numbers might include related costs such as lost work days in their numbers. I have no idea if they do.

 

[Motown]

Thank you to everyone for chiming in. JimH2, I really appreciate you taking the time to write a really detailed overview and sharing your experience. I come a musical family and have played guitar since I was a child so the safety feature is not trivial. That said, I am looking to move up from a contractors saw (1.75HP) to a cabinet saw to have less vibration, increased safety and better results. I am typically pretty decisive when I purchase a tool but I've had a tough time landing on this one because a few of the big names are no longer made in US and as a result I've questioned if they are worth the premium they are asking.

Any feedback on the benefits of 5HP versus 3HP? I know the blade, fence alignment and the wood all play a role with kick back but I am curious if 5HP reduces the chance of kickback with hardwoods versus 3HP.

 

[Birdhunter]

I have the 3HP Industrial Sawstop. I typically cut hardwoods and the saw never seems to not have enough power.

I'd buy the Sawstop over it competitors for its quality and features even without the safety feature.

The blade change is just like my old Delta Unisaw except I check the gap between the teeth and the brake. I use a Nickel coin. It's exactly the right thickness. You need a different brake for dado blades and you have to have a dado with the right diameter.

 

[Motown]

Thanks Birdhunter, good info.

So question guys: I am running the numbers and it looks like a 3HP Sawstop will run me about $1400 more than a Powermatic PM2000 (if I wait until their next 15% deal). Does anyone have feedback on the Powermatic? Anyone switch from the PM2000 to the Sawstop? Thanks in advance....much appreciated.

 

[Birdhunter]

One more thing about the Sawstop is its dust collection. If I'm cutting near the very edge of a board, I get sawdust everywhere just like any table saw. If I'm making normal cuts, the dust collection is Festool-like. Simply amazing. Also, the mobile base (pump pedal to raise saw) is great if you need to move the saw. The blade guard with dust collection works extremely well.

 

[Jeff Zanin]

Sorry for continuing the hijack of your Jet thread...

I am puzzling over a similar decision with a Bosch 4000 in hand and a PCS 3HP as a possible replacement, with some side issues relating to dust collection (need something better than a ShopVac/CT22) and space (need to remove a 10" Craftsman radial arm saw which I have used for many tasks but which has been mostly replaced by Mr. Kapex).

I haven't done detailed price comparisons and the market is likely different in Canada, but even with "free" medical care here  [wink] I would happily pay a $1400+ premium to avoid the trip to the ER.

Currently I am the only user but these machines last a long time and you never know who else might use it and thus also benefit from not only the finger save potential but the overall quality.

I was measuring and checking out the PCS 36" at the local Lee Valley last Saturday, they do the hot dog demo which draws a few people.  I talked with two of them (customers not LV or SS employees as best I could tell) before and after the hot dog save, both had the PCS and could not say enough good things about it.

 

[Motown]

No worries Jeff. What started off as a Jet thread has turned mostly into a SawStop thread.....I am still interested to hear if anyone is using the PM2000.

The one thing that has come to my attention as a result of this post is that I've seen plenty of used Jet saws for sale but no Powermatic PM2000's or any SawStop saws which suggests that customer that have purchased them must be very satisfied. I've seen a number of 66's but no 2000's.  I've not seen a single Sawstop, any version, for sale.

 

[Birdhunter]

I was fortunate to have a dealer with Powermatic and SawStop models on the floor so I could really see both brands and turn them on.

I've got some big Powermatic machines and they are excellent machines. Looking at either the Sawstop Profesional or the bigger Sawstop Industrial right beside the big Powermatic, it was obvious to me that Sawstop was a much nicer machine. I preferred the bigger and much heavier Industrial model. I especially was impressed by its low noise level and zero vibration level.

The safety feature was a factor in the decision, but even without it, I'd have bought the Sawstop.

The two guys who delivered and set up my saw said they install most Sawstop machines in school shops. The schools are switching to Sawstop. My guess it is mostly a liability issue.

Try to go somewhere to see the machines side-by-side.