Apollo hvlp in Cabinet Grade Clear

[Scott B.]

Here is a a little footage from this week of some cabinet grade work we are doing with the Apollo 1050vr 5 stage hvlp in clear wb.

 

[VictorL]

Are using water based stains also? Which companies make decent and top quality water based stains?

Thank you,
VictorL

 

[duburban]

that looks really good. is there a big difference when spraying latex with a 5 stage vs 6? thats the only thing making me look at the capspray more than this apollo.

 

[Scott B.]

that looks really good. is there a big difference when spraying latex with a 5 stage vs 6? thats the only thing making me look at the capspray more than this apollo.

d

No, there really isn't a big difference. Its like, whats the difference between 400 horsepower in a sporty car and 450. Both will spin the tires and lift the front end. The Apollo is a 5 stage, and that is plenty. The video posted above is unthinned material and we are running at 3.4 psi. The unit goes up over nine. And, we have the fluid at less than half.

With hvlp, it gets way overthought. It is possible with the right turbine and gun combo, to run a 2.0 on everything and not worry much about reducing and viscosity cups. I think those things come more into play when running a 3 stage. Turbines are kind of pretty much turbines, so the decision from one to the next is ergonomics. (Note: the hose and gun combo are different from the first video above to the second (below), because we do run dedicated setups when we go from clear to paint grade and vice versa, the video below is a bastardized and non stock hose/whip setup, while the first vid is the bone stock)

What the Apollo has that others dont, is aircraft grade (lightweight) fittings, a handy as heck gun docking station that works even in transport, a fan size control ring at the gun (omg), a lightweight 5/8" hose with no whip, so it is very lightweight and manageable, and does not heat up. We have had hose melts on other rigs when pushing them in viscous material for hours on end. This one is different.

So, here it is on the other end of our spectrum in unthinned latex, still not exceeding 7 in psi, unreduced and with some headroom in the fluid control.

 

[Scott B.]

Are using water based stains also? Which companies make decent and top quality water based stains?

Thank you,
VictorL

Victor,

These are critical considerations. In the video above, we used oil based gel stain from Modern Masters (for a variety of reasons which I can expand upon if it is of interest). The best waterborne cabinet grade stain option is dye stain, and I prefer Lockwood. It sprays and brushes well, dries fast and doesnt blotch out much. That is really the best option at a high level. The big box grades are (mwax) are not at this level.

However, the clear being sprayed in the video is oil modified waterborne, which means that it is an oil base, suspended in a waterborne platform, which gives you all of the working attributes of waterborne (visually, smell, dry time, cleanup wise) but on curing, you are left with an oil based feel and durability level, and it is compatible with everything in the world. We have been using this as our "house" clear since '07 with much pleasure.

 

[tiralie]

These are critical considerations. In the video above, we used oil based gel stain from Modern Masters (for a variety of reasons which I can expand upon if it is of interest).

Yes, please. Thanks.

However, the clear being sprayed in the video is oil modified waterborne, which means that it is an oil base, suspended in a waterborne platform, which gives you all of the working attributes of waterborne (visually, smell, dry time, cleanup wise) but on curing, you are left with an oil based feel and durability level, and it is compatible with everything in the world. We have been using this as our "house" clear since '07 with much pleasure.

Scott:
What brand/make is the oil modified waterborne you refer to here?

Tim

 

[Scott B.]

These are critical considerations. In the video above, we used oil based gel stain from Modern Masters (for a variety of reasons which I can expand upon if it is of interest).

Yes, please. Thanks.

However, the clear being sprayed in the video is oil modified waterborne, which means that it is an oil base, suspended in a waterborne platform, which gives you all of the working attributes of waterborne (visually, smell, dry time, cleanup wise) but on curing, you are left with an oil based feel and durability level, and it is compatible with everything in the world. We have been using this as our "house" clear since '07 with much pleasure.

Scott:
What brand/make is the oil modified waterborne you refer to here?

Tim

Hi Tim

The reasons for choosing oil based gel stain over waterborne dye stain (or penetrating oil stain or anything else) in this case were as much functional as aesthetic. The oak used in the room is reclaimed antique, milled from old timbers recovered from some 100+ yr old factory somewhere in middle America. The oak is/was bone dry, and loaded with tiny pinhole sized wormholes that would have been difficult to saturate with dye stain (which we prefer to spray), on such a large amount of vertical surface. Manual stain manipulation was best for grain filling purposes here. Also, while dye stain typically isnt a high blotch risk (in my experience), it will blotch more than gel stain, and this kind of oak invites the blotch. Even the panels in the walls are glue ups of this old stuff, instead of typical sheet goods, and its alot of surface, so it was nice to not have to be concerned about these issues. Once you start something like this, you are in it, for better or worse. You can see in the photo below that we prefinished the panels prior to installation, so that if the stiles and rails ever did move (not likely to shrink, but you never know), there would never be any unstained blind spots revealed. The other, mostly practical, reason was that we had to color match the stain in this room to a piece of furniture owned by the homeowner (in an entirely different vintage of wood), and MM Early American was dead nuts. I had plenty of time to stare at this during the carpentry aspect of the room, and as the product specifier, felt this was the best approach.

The clear finish we used is Zar Ultramax Satin. It is an omu (oil modified urethane). We use this on the majority of clear finish work that we do. [attachimg=#]

 

[tiralie]

You can see in the photo below that we prefinished the panels prior to installation, so that if the stiles and rails ever did move (not likely to shrink, but you never know), there would never be any unstained blind spots revealed.

Scott:
Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated. Just to clarify, the rails and styles in the photo had not been stained yet hence the "blonde" color of the oak, right?

BTW, the wood/grain of that reclaimed oak looks really good in the photo.
Tim

 

[Scott B.]

You can see in the photo below that we prefinished the panels prior to installation, so that if the stiles and rails ever did move (not likely to shrink, but you never know), there would never be any unstained blind spots revealed.

Scott:
Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated. Just to clarify, the rails and styles in the photo had not been stained yet hence the "blonde" color of the oak, right?

BTW, the wood/grain of that reclaimed oak looks really good in the photo.
Tim

Correct, Tim, in the photo just the flat panels are stained, the rest of the room is raw.

 

[alfa]

Hi Scott,

I just picked up the 1050 VR and tried shooting Benwood® Stays Clear® Acrylic Polyurethane onto cabinet grade plywood that had the grain lifted and then sanded with 320. Didn't come out like I wanted: orange peel and when it dried was actually rougher than what I started with.

If you were to shoot Benwood® Stays Clear® Acrylic Polyurethane - what settings would you put the 1050 VR and would you thin the Benwood® Stays Clear® Acrylic Polyurethane?

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[mattfc]

Hi Scott,

I just picked up the 1050 VR and tried shooting Benwood® Stays Clear® Acrylic Polyurethane onto cabinet grade plywood that had the grain lifted and then sanded with 320. Didn't come out like I wanted: orange peel and when it dried was actually rougher than what I started with.

If you were to shoot Benwood® Stays Clear® Acrylic Polyurethane - what settings would you put the 1050 VR and would you thin the Benwood® Stays Clear® Acrylic Polyurethane?

Thanks for your thoughts!

its usually either bcause you are holding the gun too far away, of the finish is too thick and needs to be thinner. If too far away, given the turbine air gets hot the atomised paint starts to thicken in transit. If the distance is 6-8" think about thinning.

above is juts based on what I have tried, I am no expert

 

[tiralie]

its usually either bcause you are holding the gun too far away, of the finish is too thick and needs to be thinner. If too far away, given the turbine air gets hot the atomised paint starts to thicken in transit. If the distance is 6-8" think about thinning.

above is juts based on what I have tried, I am no expert

Agreed. Before i thinned, I would hold the gun closer. The general rule is to use the distance between your pinky and your thumb when your hand is spread open. Without seeing it I would guess that you have a combination of dried poly dust landing on the wet surface and fish eyes.

What type of wood are you spraying and where (outside or inside)are you spraying? Why did you choose polyurethane? A clear lacquer is a little more forgiving as you can sand out your mistakes much easier.

Congratulations on getting the 1050. It's nice machine. It should have no problem atomizing the Benwood as it only has 38% solids.

Tim

 

[Scott B.]

Hi Scott,

I just picked up the 1050 VR and tried shooting Benwood® Stays Clear® Acrylic Polyurethane onto cabinet grade plywood that had the grain lifted and then sanded with 320. Didn't come out like I wanted: orange peel and when it dried was actually rougher than what I started with.

If you were to shoot Benwood® Stays Clear® Acrylic Polyurethane - what settings would you put the 1050 VR and would you thin the Benwood® Stays Clear® Acrylic Polyurethane?

Thanks for your thoughts!

Hi Alfa

Sorry I just noticed this thread. Orange peel means you put too much on (too heavy, too much pressure. I don't use that product alot, and never spray it, but I do know the viscosity of it and I would want to be spraying it at 5 psi or less with the gold (B) set. Start there on the air and dial the fluid control at the gun for the right mix (atomization). I dont think you should have to reduce it with water, but it might help a little to make it more fluid, stay wet a bit longer, which allows more leveling time, which in turn eliminates orange peel. That is what orange peel is, it means the paint tacked up and dried before it could level. The way we avoid that, as in the video above, is to overlap passes up to 50% at times so that you end up with a double coat effect, where the first coat act as the tack coat for the overlapped coat. Waterborne/acrylic poly tends to want to tack quickly. The key is to use that to your advantage, and not let it work against you.

Everyone is different in their practices, but this is the way it has worked well for us with this machine.

 

[riffin-rich]

I've also got an Apollo 1050VR and I love mine.  I don't have a lot of experience with it but I've had fantastic results.  I added the deluxe tips kit (4 extra tips) and also upgraded to the 3M PPS cups/liners (both the quart size and cup size). 

As far as product, I was turned-on to Target Coatings' products and they've worked really well for me and their support is exceptional, not to mention their forums, which are moderated by their employees.  I've been spraying EM-6500 and SC-9000 over the top.  Exceptional.  I had started thinning the products but recently learned that it wasn't necessary.  EM6500 through the 1.3mm tip and the SC9000 through a 1.0mm tip ... both at 3.4 PSI on the dial.

I experienced some fish-eye spraying some stuff I left in one of my liners for a couple of months ... switched to fresh product and no problems.

With the 1050VR, I like being able to dial it down to dramatically reduce the overspray, but my very inexpensive home-made booth really helps with that problem too.  And the finish is many times better spraying via the booth because the overspray is sucked-out instead of roughing up the surface. 
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[Scott B.]

Great project, rich. Thanks for sharing.

 

[JHC]

Nice projects. Scott I have read about pretty much all the stain work in that study. Really impressive, but I am wondering why you chose the hvlp approach instead of AAA.

 

[Scott B.]

Tommy

Good questions, and I know you know Todd and I well enough to know that we batted that around for weeks...maybe months as we watched that room get built. In the context of a 10k sf paint grade home, THAT was the last room finished. The lollapalooza.

It was mostly about time.

We had the 395 parked on that job for almost a year, as you probably saw, doing all of the primer and paint grade. And at the time of the study being gel stained, the 395 was still parked in the basement shooting up the first floor doors.

The fundamental decision came down to just a few things. We knew we would shoot ultramax as the clear. We knew we could convert the 395 to pristine clear grade form in a couple of hours. (you know the drill). We would have had to really do a dental hygiene job on it to trust it in clear in that room, but we could.

We have run ultramax in it before, and we have run ultramax in hvlp. In the context of a finished home, we felt that we would get alot less airborne mist with the hvlp at like 3.5 psi compared to the 395 which would have probably needed to be at about 600. The amount of turbulence at the tip would have been greater, which would have meant our masking would have to be more aggressive. We had to tape and mask the floors and the drywall ceiling square perimeters in the coffers, as well as the windows. We were mostly concerned about tearing up the ceiling by heavier masking. When we chose to go hvlp, we were able to use the yellow tape (frog and intertape) and we ended up having no blowouts. Plus, the superior fan size control on the hvlp would be very handy in all the cabinet corners. With the aaa you got what you got, and you fly through the cab carcasses and hope it hangs.

What drove the final decision was quantity. We knew it would take less than two gallons to do the room with hvlp, whereas with aaa we would have been between 2-3 (@$60+/). Plus the additional cleanup time of the pump, hose and gun versus the simple breakdown and cleanup of the apollo. Todd has that down to about the 8 minute mark.

In the end, we knew we certainly could do it aaa, but we really would have had to move. The 1050 was just made for that scene, its what it does best. And it works it so comfortably and at a relaxed pace. We didnt have a single issue with the clear laying down, even inside all of the builtins, etc.

I'd make the same call again for sure. In general, the aaa v hvlp decision for us is driven by quantity of material to be dispersed.

PS. It is worth noting that that Todd was leaning toward the 395 during most of the decision making process, mostly because that room scared the bejesus out of us in the sense of needing a one and done scenario, and he has logged hundreds of hours, er probably thousands, of hours on the 395 in the past couple of years, so his comfort level is very high with that machine. He fell in love with the 1050 for this type of work when it was all said and done. Prior to this room, he had about 8 hours on the 1050. Also worth noting that if the room had been paint grade, it would have been a no brainer to do it with the 395 (as we did the kitchen and dining room - see my latest tcr post), not that the 1050 cant do paint grade, but it would have been much slower.

 

[JHC]

That makes perfect sense. Two things not cleaning the 395 and making it clear ready and the extra masking.

 

[Scott B.]

That makes perfect sense. Two things not cleaning the 395 and making it clear ready and the extra masking.

I just despise the paint to clear conversion. Todd is nutty like you...he enjoys it in some twisted way. Freaks me right out.

 

[JHC]

You don't have an excuse, you have enough gear to leave one for paint grade and or clears only. I would be a little freaked out about tiny flecks of white in the ultramax as well to be honest.  [scared]