Are 1/2" stub tenons strong enough for cabinet doors?

[Packard]

I read online that someone claimed that 1/2" stub tenons are not strong enough.  And that he adds two dowels to all the joints.

There is a paywall for this article so I will just post the image:

I make mostly Shaker cabinet doors using 3-1/2" wide stiles and rails.  It would be far faster and easier to just make the stub tenon 3/4" or 1" deep than it is to add dowels. 

Any thoughts on this? 

 

[Michael Kellough]

I wouldn’t expect the glue to hold up in that cross grain joint. If you shoot 18 gauge nails into the overlapping parts it would probably last if the the panels aren’t too heavy. If the panels are ply or veneered mdf they could be glued and you wouldn’t have to worry about the rail/stile joint.

 

[ChuckM]

The rule of thumb for the tenon length is 2/3 of the width of the stile (vertical component). If yours is 3-1/2" wide, the tenon length should be 2-1/3". 1" tenons are too short for your proposed doors. If the door is thick/heavy, I would do at least 2".

For light doors on tracks, shorter tenons are perfectly fine.

 

[Packard]

I looked at the displays at the home stores and they are all using 1/2" stub tenons, as are my 30-year-old cabinets at home.

The total glue-up area is increased with the wide rails and stiles.  I don't understand why they would require more length too.

I make mine on the table saw so I can make them any depth I want.  But Whiteside and Freud both make shaker router sets and those are strictly 1/2" stub tenons. 

The extra depth of the tenons does not affect the appearance of the door; it merely adds a small margin of additional cost.   

 

[semenza]

Unless these are some sort of extraordinarily, out of the ordinary,  doors there should be no problem. Are they extremely heavy? In a commercial setting?

I mean the whole point of rail and stile sets are to make the joints. I use rail and stile joints that are "stub" tenons. Glue and clamp.

I have a bunch of doors that are done that way and are in a commercial setting (restaurant / bar). Opened, closed with knee, slammed, probably a hundred times a day. Going on two + years now. No failures of the door joints. If anything is going to go down it will be the hinges .... so far those are good as well.

Seth

 

[Kpp80202]

I've used 1/2" stub tenons for bathroom cabinet doors with no problems. I'd be surprised if any force that was strong enough to break the tenon loose wouldn't tear the hinge out first. For a bigger door or something that would be subjected to more abuse, I'd use a deeper haunched tenon.

 

[Sparktrician]

If sagging is an issue and you want to use mitered corner doors, you might want to try using lock dominoes. 

 

[Crazyraceguy]

As has been stated above, if you use a "stable" panel, you can just glue it in and it will never be a problem. With solid wood panels, I generally throw in a Domino. It's more for peace of mind than anything, I have never had a failure.

That said, a whole lot of commercially available cabinets are made with just the stub tenons and they seem to be ok? If not, they would step-up and do what would be needed.

 

[Packard]

I just glue about 2" of each rail and stile in the middle.  It keeps the panel from rattling and allows for an expansion/contraction of the rails and stiles (obviously the MDF or plywood is stable. 

Are you guys suggesting that I glue the entire length of the rails and stiles?  I had not thought to do that.

 

[semenza]

 

Are you guys suggesting that I glue the entire length of the rails and stiles?  I had not thought to do that.

I'm not suggesting that. I just glue the joint.

Seth

 

[tjbier]

Every custom door/drawer front maker around here either uses 1/2" Mortice & Tennon or a CNC machine with a larger domino.
Myself included, I see absolutely no reason to add dowels or dominos to a 1/2" M & T, unless YOU want to try it. Certainly would not be time/cost efficient  for production.
We never glue the panel in either, 1/2" plow in all rails and stiles, then a .250 space ball, then the panel gets set in 5/16" to put slight tension on the space balls so the panel can move but not rattle.

 

[Packard]

I made some oversized doors once, and I increased the stub tenon to 3/4" and that worked well.  I used the cabinet for 13 years and then sold.  It probably is still in use.  That would be about 20 years worth.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Nearly everything I do goes into a "commercial situation", so some amount of hard use is expected. I'm not necessarily saying abuse, but people can be a bit rough on things that they don't own or have a particular reason to care about. Retail is even worse.
So, with that in mind, sure I would have no problem with gluing an MDF or ply panel in place, and have many times. It's more likely on painted doors though. I probably wouldn't on a veneered door, just to avoid the risk of getting glue on the panel.
If you glue them, it is not necessary to go crazy with it. Enough to immobilize the panel will do it.