Battery tech wish / prediction

[silence2-38554]

I'm sure a good handful of folks in here follow Milwaukee as well as Festool.  Personally, I supplement my Festool collection with Milwaukee gear that Festool either doesn't offer yet or never will.  That said, I've been keeping an eye on this year's Pipeline event & took notice of the new Milwaukee FORGE batteries.  I wanted to know what exactly they were doing, as their High Output batteries already use the latest & greatest 21700 cells, equivalent to Festool's 4.0Ah battery (and 8.0 for countries lucky enough to have it).

These new FORGE batteries, however, are offering similar performance to the 21700 High Output batteries, but at almost half the weight and size.  Doing a bit of research, it looks like this is because they're no longer using cylindrical cells.  These are "pouch" batteries, similar to what's used in laptops and cell phones.

Seeing Milwaukee offer this gives me hope that Festool is on the same track.  Primarily, because I really, really want to pick up a CTC SYS, but the current run time with the dual 4.0 batteries is just barely even usable for what I'd need it for.  Now, if they follow suit & release some 8.0Ah batteries with the same form factor as the current 4.0's, man o man would that be sweet!  Just imagine a CTC SYS with a minimum 20 minute run time & max of around 45 minutes!  Fingers are crossed for this.  Part of me thinks they designed the space constraint of the CTC SYS battery compartment as it is on purpose, with this new generation of batteries in mind.

But first, can we get the damn 8.0's in the US already??

 

[neeleman]

The long awaited 8.0 High Power battery is still nowhere available, even not in Europe.
Release time is oktober 2023 (Europe).
The form factor of this battery will be quite large and will not fit the CTC SYS.
Unless Festool also jumps on the  pouch battery trend which btw was started by DeWalt.
[attachimg=1]

 

[mino]

...
Doing a bit of research, it looks like this is because they're no longer using cylindrical cells.  These are "pouch" batteries, similar to what's used in laptops and cell phones.
...

Carefull what we wish for.

Generally, the price to pay with the prismatic cells is reduced reliability.

There are almost no packs, I am aware, which can reliably handle 10+ yrs of active use while that is seen as nothing special for the packs Festool sells ...

 

[demographic]

The long awaited 8.0 High Power battery is still nowhere available, even not in Europe.
Release time is oktober 2023 (Europe).
The form factor of this battery will be quit large and will not fit the CTC SYS.
Unless Festool also jumps on the  pouch battery trend which btw was started by DeWalt.
[attachimg=1]

Err, theres an 8 Ah Festool battery HERE.

 

[jeh]

Will the 8ah batteries work with the CSC SYS? If so I'll be picking some up in Europe later this fall. The CSC SYS 50 really needs longer laster batteries.

 

[squall_line]

Will the 8ah batteries work with the CSC SYS? If so I'll be picking some up in Europe later this fall. The CSC SYS 50 really needs longer laster batteries.

Based on the way the batteries mount, it should be able to accept the 8.0 Ah batteries unless they are also appreciably wider instead of just taller (like the 4.0 compared to the 3.1, where the 3.1 is narrow enough on a TSC to clear things that the 4.0 isn't).

 

[mkasdin]

Will the 8ah batteries work with the CSC SYS? If so I'll be picking some up in Europe later this fall. The CSC SYS 50 really needs longer laster batteries.

I talked with the rep at the Festool Experience and asked him what was coming out in the future like a longer run battery or other stuff? He said this year was a big roll out. Next year not so much but the year after, there’s some good stuff. I wouldn’t be surprised if they come out with a higher capacity battery let’s say 6amp for the ctc sys that would give us a slightly better increase in the higher setting and a noticeable increase in the mid setting. It would be very useable with two 8 amp batteries or a battery to plug converter or a way to charge the batteries in the vacuum plugged in? Better yet no batteries and wireless Bluetooth power.

 

[mino]

Will the 8ah batteries work with the CSC SYS? If so I'll be picking some up in Europe later this fall. The CSC SYS 50 really needs longer laster batteries.

I talked with the rep at the Festool Experience and asked him what was coming out in the future like a longer run battery or other stuff? He said this year was a big roll out. Next year not so much but the year after, theres some good stuff. I wouldn’t be surprised if they come out with a higher capacity battery let’s say 6amp for the ctc sys that would give us a slightly better increase in the higher setting and a noticeable increase in the mid setting. It would be very useable with two 8 amp batteries or a battery to plug converter or a way to charge the batteries in the vacuum plugged in? Better yet no batteries and wireless Bluetooth power.

Do not count on it. The most you can hope are the 4.0 HP packs "upgraded" to 5.0 one some time around 2030 or so. We are very close to the theoretical energy density limits of LiIon tech. That is why most makers are moving to 21700 cells these days. There is simply no space for improvement within the original form factor. (21700 cells have about +135% cells volume and 150% theoretical capacity. So where the 18650 cells top at 3.5 Ah or so, the 21700 will top around 5.0 Ah or so once the market matures a bit more).

The CTC SYS is constrained by space so a limit its battery capacity is the trade off - I guess the idea was that a CTC SYS is inherently suppossed to be small and light, while it already has a pretty small bag capacity as it is. So extending its operating time was a no-go.

CTC SYS is one of the typical niche products of Festool - IF you need it, it befomes a must-have and you just live with the inherent limitations. If you are just "thinking about" ... just pass it.

As for the "charge batteries while in vac" that has no place in a CTC SYS (space, weight, remember it is suppossed to be taken on a ladder etc.). But I cannot comprehend why the CTC Mini/Midi does not include this. It is such an obvious avenue!

 

[todor4o83]

Look at  this TSC55KEB/2x8Ah

 

[jronman]

Doing a bit of research, it looks like this is because they're no longer using cylindrical cells.  These are "pouch" batteries, similar to what's used in laptops and cell phones.

From my understanding only the m18 6.0 ah Forge battery uses pouch cell technology. The m18 12.0 Forge and the two Forge offerings in the MX Fuel line are using tab-less cells. I am not very knowledgeable in tab-less cell technology but basically it means more power. I think the m12 High Output are tab-less cells too. Flex (usa) on the other hand is pouch cell across the board. They don't offer any 21700 cell batteries to my knowledge.

 

[simonh]

https://www.youtube.com/@TorqueTestChannel Is an excellent channel for geeking out on some of the battery technology that's around. Dewalt came out with the PowerStak and the Forge is Milwaukee's offering. 

It seems in terms of power delivered some of these batteries and motors are capable of delivering very high outputs equivalent to mains powered tools (although often for too brief a period). Not sure where it's all going as the big manufacturers such as Dewalt and Milwaukee can go toe to toe and I'm sure they soon recover their R&D costs with the size of their market and range of tools.

Other manufacturers such as Mafell have gone into licensing deals with Metabo for motors and batteries for the KSS5018MBi, but that can often mean they aren't as leading edge as they have siginificant costs to recoup to pay for deals and tooling to produce machines and therefore have to charge very high prices that are getting too hard to justify. Festool seems to be somewhere in the middle, they have their own battery platform and motors but are never going to be mainstream so mid-high price such as the HKC55.

I'm all for innovation and free markets, but with the incompatibility of battery packs which are essentially just a bunch of 18650s or 21700s or now pouch batteries, I suspect we are all going to leave the planet and next generation with an inordinate amount of part used lithium batteries!