Belt sander or big orbital for worktops etc

[sancho57]

Belt sanders can go wrong in a heart beat. You have to be careful with them. They can dig into the wood and ruin the piece in a heart beat.

If your sanding in place Rotex is the way to go if they are beat up and you have to take down a lot of wood fast. Otherwise, I would say to remove the tops, and find a cabinent shop with a drum sander and pay the owner to run the tops through the drum sander for ya. It would take a little longer, cost the HO a little more in labor cost (removing and reinstalling the counter tops, sink etc. But You would end up with a much finer product.

Sometimes though its more work, its easier to do and get better results

Actually IMO the drum sander would give you the flatest, cleanest surface IMO.

 

[tbellemare]

I've used my Rotex 150 and DX 93 with everything (sink, etc) in place to refinish some Boos hard maple counter tops between renters. You have to be careful when edging but it goes pretty fast.

The exiting renter was supposed to oil them regularly but the bottle was still unopened and there were stains everywhere. I sanded them down starting with (I think - it's been a while) Cristal P60 and went through the Rubin grits to 150 (I think). Below 120, I used gear-driven orbital then without switching grits, a pass in random orbital. At 120, just RO.

If you hold the machine at the tail and let it float in RO, you can get it very smooth and flat. You can feel if it is hitting a bump or different density wood, like a knot.

It was about 20' of counter top and it would have been considerably more tedious with the 125. It's about 2/3 as fast over large areas.

Tom

 

[Michael Kellough]

Makes sense not to remove the tops. I haven't really thought about how to cope with fastened tops.

But I do know this: I've flattened my "fork-dented" oak table with RO125. It was a pleasure going through all the grits and the table came out nice. After buying the BS75 I revisited the table and I can tell you that it was a whole lot easier, booth in terms of speed and outcome (flatness). The table was oiled, but I don't recall the RO125 bogged down less than the belt sander. The belt sander was bogged down a couple of times, but that was solved in two seconds with a piece of raw rubber to clean the belt.

I have done the same thing with MDF coated door blades. After doing this with BS75 I see no point using the R125 other that for the last grits. The BS75 leaves as flat a surface that your eyes hurt

I agree if you have a table top or Worktop which is not fixed the belt sander would be the way to go I suppose, it's just the original poster said redo kitchen worktops so im assuming they would be fixed and I'm thinking from in the past when iv sanded worktops in place it can be awkward round corners with tall units etc on smaller kitchens  and a belt sander would be kinda useless.

I would like the bs75 but its alot of money and I hardly ever use my Makita belt sander

An RO is great at feathering and smooting (creating the illusion of flatness) but it follows the surface it doesn't actually flatten it like a BS/frame will.

To sand the full surface with a BS/frame there has to be room for the frame to extend over the edge.

Sancho said "Belt sanders and finish sanding can go wrong in a heart beat." This is true for a raw BS with no frame. With a frame you can leave the sander running and unattended and nothing will happen if the frame is adjusted to raise the sanding platen. Think about that. If you have to turn an adjustment knob to bring the sanding platen down to the work, what can go wrong? Set to barely touch the surface in one area as you move it around and it starts to grab you know you come to a high spot and the BS/frame will cut it down. If you'd been using an RO sander it would have been cutting low and high spots all the same maintaining the semi-flat surface.

That said, whenever you run the frame off the edge it has to be at a diagonal. If you are running parallel to the edge and let a full side of the sander run off the edge then the sander can lean and overcut the edge. With practice you can compensate for that but in general I wait to run parallel until the grit is fine and a lapse in attention is less consequential.

For sanding installed countertops I think a combination of RO and RTS (or ETS) would work well. If the wood is already flat and it isn't softwood there isn't too much that can go wrong with an RO since you don't need aggressive grits for that work.

If you're making a solid wood countertop in the shop and you can't send the thing trough a wide-belt sander than the best tool is a BS/frame combo.

 

[Jalvis]

We really need more information about the kind of tops that are being worked to give sound advice. 

I've refinished end grain maple Boos Islands and they were unable to be sanded.  Even with 60 grit paper.  The problem is what was mentioned earlier which is the wood is oiled.

The first thing that comes to my mind is planing.  I would be tempted to use the Festool 850 since you have an unlimited stop.  This is a perfect example of why this feature is so great since you can plane against the wall.  I would set for a shallow cut and move across the entire surface a couple times and then finish with the RO150.  I think this would be the fastest method and least costly since less paper will be needed.

I have never tried the planer method but it would be the first thing I would attempt.  If you dont have the 850 get a demo or use the 30 day trial period......but if it works you buy the machine!

 

[jmbfestool]

Hi all, just an update with a few more details..
The tops will always stay in place due to tiles, sinks, costs, lack of space in Victorian England etc,
Kitchen tops I work on are usually varnished and in poor condition so I need a fairly aggresive option,
Current sanders are RO125, RAS115, DX93, RTS400 and Mirka Ceros, so I can do aggresive but I want
to get very flat over a large area before finishing off with the Ceros.
From your experiences I have pretty much discounted the BS and I'm looking closely at the RS100.
My favourite sander is the RTS - I use it everyday to flatten paint and I feel the RS100 would suit my style of sanding.
The other thing I like is that you can buy pad savers and rolls of Abranet that fit perfectly (115x10m).
My only dilemna now is the difference between the RS100 and the RS100C - they have the same specs, stroke, power but are clearly different. Do you get either in the US?  I'm leaning towards the first one - it looks more of a beast!

Thanks for all the input
Paul

I would also like to know the difference between the rs100 and rs100c.   At the moment all I can tell is price and appearance that's all and one is maybe more heavy duty???

That does seem like a good sander for sanding a Worktop already fixed in position.

 

[jmbfestool]

We really need more information about the kind of tops that are being worked to give sound advice.  

I've refinished end grain maple Boos Islands and they were unable to be sanded.  Even with 60 grit paper.  The problem is what was mentioned earlier which is the wood is oiled.

The first thing that comes to my mind is planing.  I would be tempted to use the Festool 850 since you have an unlimited stop.  This is a perfect example of why this feature is so great since you can plane against the wall.  I would set for a shallow cut and move across the entire surface a couple times and then finish with the RO150.  I think this would be the fastest method and least costly since less paper will be needed.

I have never tried the planer method but it would be the first thing I would attempt.  If you dont have the 850 get a demo or use the 30 day trial period......but if it works you buy the machine!

Ummm I like my ehl850 but no way would I attempt doing that not only will u leave alot of places untouched  because u can't get right into corners etc. but u will leave lines and create a very uneven surface very quickly, not only that it won't always be possible to go with grain direction.   Very dodgy.

Like Kev said  your better of using a fine hand plane or a scrapper/high angle hand plane to get the thick layer of finish off before sanding.    

 

[Deansocial]

I think using pad savers etc isnt going to help you get a flat finish. You want a hard pad to keep it flat rather than pad savers making it softer so the soft bits of wood sand down faster. What about a cabinet scraper?

 

[jmbfestool]

Makes sense not to remove the tops. I haven't really thought about how to cope with fastened tops.

But I do know this: I've flattened my "fork-dented" oak table with RO125. It was a pleasure going through all the grits and the table came out nice. After buying the BS75 I revisited the table and I can tell you that it was a whole lot easier, booth in terms of speed and outcome (flatness). The table was oiled, but I don't recall the RO125 bogged down less than the belt sander. The belt sander was bogged down a couple of times, but that was solved in two seconds with a piece of raw rubber to clean the belt.

I have done the same thing with MDF coated door blades. After doing this with BS75 I see no point using the R125 other that for the last grits. The BS75 leaves as flat a surface that your eyes hurt

I agree if you have a table top or Worktop which is not fixed the belt sander would be the way to go I suppose, it's just the original poster said redo kitchen worktops so im assuming they would be fixed and I'm thinking from in the past when iv sanded worktops in place it can be awkward round corners with tall units etc on smaller kitchens  and a belt sander would be kinda useless.

I would like the bs75 but its alot of money and I hardly ever use my Makita belt sander

An RO is great at feathering and smooting (creating the illusion of flatness) but it follows the surface it doesn't actually flatten it like a BS/frame will.

To sand the full surface with a BS/frame there has to be room for the frame to extend over the edge.

Sancho said "Belt sanders and finish sanding can go wrong in a heart beat." This is true for a raw BS with no frame. With a frame you can leave the sander running and unattended and nothing will happen if the frame is adjusted to raise the sanding platen. Think about that. If you have to turn an adjustment knob to bring the sanding platen down to the work, what can go wrong? Set to barely touch the surface in one area as you move it around and it starts to grab you know you come to a high spot and the BS/frame will cut it down. If you'd been using an RO sander it would have been cutting low and high spots all the same maintaining the semi-flat surface.

That said, whenever you run the frame off the edge it has to be at a diagonal. If you are running parallel to the edge and let a full side of the sander run off the edge then the sander can lean and overcut the edge. With practice you can compensate for that but in general I wait to run parallel until the grit is fine and a lapse in attention is less consequential.

For sanding installed countertops I think a combination of RO and RTS (or ETS) would work well. If the wood is already flat and it isn't softwood there isn't too much that can go wrong with an RO since you don't need aggressive grits for that work.

If you're making a solid wood countertop in the shop and you can't send the thing trough a wide-belt sander than the best tool is a BS/frame combo.

Yeah I get what the frame is for and if I was the buy the bs75 der is no way I wouldn't buy it with out a frame. As I believe if you don't have it with a frame your just buying an overpriced regular belt sander lol

 

[AlexThePalex]

My only dilemna now is the difference between the RS100 and the RS100C - they have the same specs, stroke, power but are clearly different. Do you get either in the US?  I'm leaning towards the first one - it looks more of a beast!

The RS 100 is NAINA so North Americans know nothing about it. Even very few people in Europe know about it as it is not one of Festool biggest sellers.

I briefly had an RS 100 C but I sold it again because it was no match for my RO 150 in material removal. Not by far.

The difference between the RS 100 and RS 100 C is the fact that the C model has no active dust extraction itself. If you want dust extraction with this model you will always have to attach an external vac. The RS 100 without the C has a built in rotor in the grey encasing just above the pad. A sort of mini vac built in, like most orbital sanders have, so you can use it with an attached dust bag instead of an external vac. Of course you can still use it with an external vac too.

There is nothing more "beastly" about the RS 100 over the RS 100 C. Just the active/passive dust collection
 

 

[jmbfestool]

My only dilemna now is the difference between the RS100 and the RS100C - they have the same specs, stroke, power but are clearly different. Do you get either in the US?  I'm leaning towards the first one - it looks more of a beast!

The RS 100 is NAINA so North Americans know nothing about it. Even very few people in Europe know about it as it is not one of Festool biggest sellers.

I briefly had an RS 100 C but I sold it again because it was no match for my RO 150 in material removal. Not by far.

The difference between the RS 100 and RS 100 C is the fact that the C model has no active dust extraction itself. If you want dust extraction with this model you will always have to attach an external vac. The RS 100 without the C has a built in rotor in the grey encasing just above the pad. A sort of mini vac built in, like most orbital sanders have, so you can use it with an attached dust bag instead of an external vac. Of course you can still use it with an external vac too.

There is nothing more "beastly" about the RS 100 over the RS 100 C. Just the active/passive dust collection
   

Cheers,  that explains why that one u can by a filter bag for it then

 

[Flashman]

My only dilemna now is the difference between the RS100 and the RS100C - they have the same specs, stroke, power but are clearly different. Do you get either in the US?  I'm leaning towards the first one - it looks more of a beast!

The RS 100 is NAINA so North Americans know nothing about it. Even very few people in Europe know about it as it is not one of Festool biggest sellers.

I briefly had an RS 100 C but I sold it again because it was no match for my RO 150 in material removal. Not by far.

The difference between the RS 100 and RS 100 C is the fact that the C model has no active dust extraction itself. If you want dust extraction with this model you will always have to attach an external vac. The RS 100 without the C has a built in rotor in the grey encasing just above the pad. A sort of mini vac built in, like most orbital sanders have, so you can use it with an attached dust bag instead of an external vac. Of course you can still use it with an external vac too.

There is nothing more "beastly" about the RS 100 over the RS 100 C. Just the active/passive dust collection
   

Thanks for that Alex. There must be a bit more to it, though - they look quite different. I'll be using my Midi for extraction so it's not an issue.
There's not enough detail on the Festool UK site about the two machines. The 100c breifly mentions max speed and number of strokes - the 100 doesn't. Their other specs are the same.
I now realise that half sheet sanders are much more of a European thing. To avoid having to learn German and go on to their forums I've asked Festool directly.

 

[AlexThePalex]

There must be a bit more to it, though - they look quite different.

There is nothing more to it. They look different because the RS100 has active dust extraction built in, and that's it. Why Festool felt the need to develop two different models for that is beyond me.

There's not enough detail on the Festool UK site about the two machines. The 100c breifly mentions max speed and number of strokes - the 100 doesn't. Their other specs are the same.
I now realise that half sheet sanders are much more of a European thing. To avoid having to learn German and go on to their forums I've asked Festool directly.

The RS100 has a no load rpm of 6000 while the RS 100 C has 6300 rpm. They have the same motor, the difference is of course because of the active dust extraction.
And the RS100 weighs 3,3 Kg and the RS 100 C 3,0 Kg. These two specs are the only difference.

Half sheet sanders are by no means a European thing. Americans also have enough of them I think. It's just that Festool doesn't sell the RS100 over there. They do sell their other half sheet sander, the RS200 there, albeit in the older RS2 version. 

 

[oldie]

An interesting thread.

I’m thinking out aloud, so some repetition of good points made already, and, perhaps a bit ramblerly on my part – apologies in advance.
Dan’s comment, for me, sums it up – ...not an easy task which ever route you go I guess.”

The preparation seems to fall into two areas – whilst wanting quick results, resulting in a flat surface ready for whatever coating is applied.
Removing the finish, and, final sanding.
In this context, how to best remove the finish seems to fall also into two broad camps – depending partly on the finish/coating to be removed I guess.
Sanding vs Sraping.

Sanding:  you already have a good spread of sanders (and acknowledge that RO125 “...can certainly take off material.”)  Perhaps a RO150 would be worth the investment – much quicker.  But need to buy the sander and another size of abrasives.  (maybe then sell the RO125 ??)
I have the RO150, RS100Q, RS200EQ.(btw the  RS100’s have no speed adjustment.)
I went for the RS100Q because of the extra weight (thought the little extra weight might help somehow) and can use a dust bag if necessary – never used the bag though; also, I thought the ever so slightly slower speed possibly advantageous with courser grits.
OTOH, the RS100CQ isn’t so ‘bulky,’ so fancied might be easier to see what you’re doing in some circumstances – but I’ve had no such issues with the RS’s I have.
In addition, right or wrong, happen to be more confident that I’m getting a ‘flat’ surface; with me not having to concentrate so much as I would with the RO.
I would (somewhat tentatively – lol) disagree with Alex about the RS100s.  I find the sander brilliant – reminds me of the old days; when the Rotex was just a twinkle in someone’s eye.
Basically, for me, easier to handle and less bulky than an RO – just not so cumbersome for what I do a lot of.  One example only, would be when sripping a surface with many layers of paint, (you know - you’re just getting to through to the wood) I find the RS easier to control than the RO150 – less tiring in some way.  Ok, not ultimately so aggressive when removing material – but my life, I think it’s very good at what it does.  Have only used Rubin / Brilliant2 with them so far – would love to try Granat (so expensive to buy as only available in 100 packs) but who knows; Granat might be a bit of a life changer so to speak; will think more about it when current stocks run low.)  One big advantage of the RO, is the wider availability of different Festool abrasives.
I am so impressed with the RS sanders, that have on occasion gently pondered on whether or not I really need the RO 150 anymore.
One thing to bear in mind, is that the RS pads are not completely flat – they gently taper off at each end.  This has to borne in mind when sanding into corners for eg.  I do understand why this is done, but not sure I agree

Scraping / planing might well be the way forward – hence my interest in this post.
Tend to agree with those that have suggested this option – for the reasons given.
Ok, investment in getting appropriate scrapers/planes + possibly  gear to keep them sharp – but once done it’s done.  Also maybe have to invest time in familiarisation, so as to get the best out of the tools
So...less need to get hung up on sanding for coating/finish removal – and can concentrate on flat finish sanding.
Would initially suggest the RS200 for that
Richard.

 

[Flashman]

Thanks for all the advice etc
I've gone for the RO150 in the end. Got a cracking deal.
Like I said it's mainly for refinishing kitchen surfaces and tabletops in conjunction with my Mirka ceros, deltex and RTS.
First one will be a bar in a tennis club. I'll be taking all my tools to impress the ladies.

Why do they ship with a soft pad? I'll only use a hard one, so what's a soft pad for?

Paul.