Best SCMS/CMS for Non Festoolian

[GreenGA]

I have a friend who is just starting out with tools in general; primarily for projects around the home.  Friday he purchased his first circular saw, a decent Makita; I could not talk him into a TS55 or 75.

Anyway, over the weekend he built the required workbench and realized he needs a CMS.  What would you folks recommend?  No, I cannot talk him into a Kapex; nor would he want to purchase my DeWalt so "I" could purchase a Kapex.  :

Thanks.

 

[Dan Clark]

Green,

Like most tools, "Best" in a CMS/SCMS is dependent on a number of things:

Usage - Will he be cutting a lot of tall crown or molding?  If yes, then a 12" SCMS might be better than a 10". 

Portability/Weight - Does it need to be portable?  Will he be taking it to the work site?  Even if he's going to use it at home, if he's going to retrim the entire house, it could be a major pain to run back and forth to to the shop for each cut.  Same goes for building a deck.    It would be a lot better to have it handy.  For portability, weight is a big piece of this.  DAMHIKT.  OTOH, if it's only being used in a shop, weight becomes a non-issue. 

Dust Collection - If only used in the shop, he can rig up permanent dust collection and it will probably work pretty well.    If used in the rest of the home...  Well, you know the routine.

Cut Quality - If he's using to cut 2X boards for a deck, cut quality isn't too important.  I.e., in this situation, the miter saw is just a rough-carpentry tool.  OTOH, if he's running trim, or cutting rails and stiles, he needs to consider the miter saw a precision instrument and buy accordingly. 

Regarding what's on the market now, here are my opinions:

Kapex - Has received a bad rap in the pro community because of turntable issues, including scraping and stiffness.    These issues appear to be resolved, but the perception remains.  OTOH and as everyone here knows, it is precise instrument, that is very light, has excellent capacity, and very good dust collection.  The major issue with the Kapex is cost.

Makita LS1016 ($500 - $550 street) - A brand new 10" miter saw.  It has quickly gotten a lot of fans because it light, relatively quiet, has very good capacity, is pretty well made, and has some very nice features.  The turntable is exceptional.  It rotates very smoothly and locks solidly.    OTOH, the dust collection is only fair and to get past 45* in bevel, you have to make an alignment adjustment with a screw. 

The biggest issue with the 1016 is a QC or design issue - a substantial portion of the 1016's have runout (blade wobble).  This causes problems with aligning the lasers, gouges in the cut surface, and the cut is not as precise as it should be.  For some folks who have had this issue, it's a concern.  For others, it's a showstopper.  IMO, it's a big issue. 

Milwaukee 6955-20 ($750 street) - This is a relatively new 12" saw.    I don't know much about it, but it has received excellent reviews.  Dust collection is supposed to be excellent, capacity is exceptional (cuts 6 1/2" vertically), and has a digital miter readout.    OTOH, it's very heavy.  Weight is listed at 65 lbs, but I've been told it's actually over 70.  WAY too heavy for me.

Dewalt 717 (about $600 street) - Very new 10" miter saw.  Has received good reviews.  OTOH, the stock blade is apparently mediocre so you to get a new one.  And the biggie is that it's a Dewalt.  I'm biased; I don't buy their saws any more.

I know a fair amount about the Makita LS1016L because I bought one...  And took it back because of blade runout.  The replacement had blade runout too and was noisier than the first.  So I returned it too. 

Since I'm VERY tired of hassling with problem tools, I just ordered a Kapex.  I hope I made the right decision.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[justinmcf]

i recommend the makita LS1013. great all round saw.
i have been using them for years. you cant kill them!
not as good as a kapex, but close enough.

regards, justin.

 

[Dan Clark]

I agree with Justin.  If you can find an LS1013, buy it.  It's long in the tooth (introduced 10 years ago), but an excellent saw nevertheless.  The issue may be finding them.  A lot of retailers are now stocking the 1016.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I had a bosch 12" SCMS for a couple years, it was a great saw.  Heavy, dust collection (ha thats funny), up front controls, very smooth.

Just sold it yesterday and ordered a kapex, which did not show up today .

So, I liked the bosch alot, hope to like my kapex even more.

 

[James Watriss]

One more vote for the 1013. I'm not real big on Makita's cordless drills, but that saw has treated me very well for many years.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Come on guys, we're talking about a hobbyist who's starting out here. No way does he going to need the type of tools professionals need.

Based on the needs of the average hobby wood worker/ home decorator, I'd recommend the green Bosch PCM 8S.

I don't know if you have this green hobbyist line of Bosch tools in America, and if you have, the model number might probably be different. But really, a starting hobbyist will be very satisfied with this miter saw. You'd be crazy to try to talk a starting hobbyist into a Kapex. There's a reason there's a distinction between professional tools and hobbyist tools.

 

[sw1211]

I could be wrong but I believe the only green options in NA are Hitachi and Festool.  (sorry to put the two in the same sentence)

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I all ready cast a vote for Bosch.

 

[rnt80]

I had the 12" Bosch SCMS before I bought the Kapex.  It was huge.  If space is not an issue then it's a nice saw.  I had mine on a Ridgid MSUV and that helped some.  If it's on a bench then it will need alot of room in back of it.  It also isn't the lightest thing on the planet so if you'll be moving it frequently you may want to look at something else.  As someone else mentioned the dust collection is nonexistent.  The lasers aren't active until you start the blade which was a big nuisance for me. 
The clamp down is nice and it has extending tables with a flagstop on the end. 
I'd agree with the previous poster that said that a Kapex is overkill for the hobbyist.  While it has some great features there are quite a few good saws that will suit just about anyone for a lot less money.

 

[score0matic]

Im going to be contrairian
I think he needs only the simplest cheapest single bevel cms he can buy, that will cut 45 and then back to 90.

Reason.
1 Until he reaches a certain level of ability the differences of a fair and a great saw will be lost on most dyi homeowners 
2 saving $200, $300 or $1000 will allow him to buy other tools that he Needs in order to have the basic tools he needs to complete projects.  or allow him to purchase material to start some. 
(commentary, Festool tends to change wood workers into toolophiles where the hobby shifts from doing projects to acquiring really neat tools for their own sake.  The disease is even more pronounced when it comes to OLD AMERICAN ARN see www.owwm.org    I see this tendency in my self and it is HUGE in others....... Now there is nothing wrong with it in it self  (says one who pours the Koolaid for others ;D ) but it often produces responses that are skewed to say the least.  also as Alex stated Advice from pros to novices in any category often is ill suited to the beginners needs.

Craig

 

[Dan Clark]

My  current miter saw is a Bosch 4410L.  It's a decent miter saw, BUT it weighs 75lbs with the two stand adapters (maybe a pound or two each).  If it's for a shop and does NOT get moved around, it's a reasonable choice.  Portable?  Forget it!.

Dan.

 

[VictorL]

GreenGA,

There is no answer for your question. From your description your friend never owned power tools. Did he ever use them? If person never worked with tools he doesn?t understand difference between $70 (on holiday sale in HD) all plastic CMS Ryoby and plastic $1300 CSMS Kapex. For people who didn?t do anything handy they are ?just? saws. It is hard to explain difference between $70 Ryobi and $200 DeWalt. (They will both cut the lumber, right?).  If he will just cut a couple moldings or build a deck cheap saw is an answer.  What he?s saying about your DeWalt saw? (How old is it, and how much are you asking?) . Does he need CMS or CSMS? 
Just let your friend to grow-up. He?ll understand some day difference between professional tool and disposable crap. 
You can show him a trick. Bring a piece of veneered plywood and scribe two straight lines across grains. Then ask him to make a nice straight cut with his Makita (I suppose it is not railed?). Then make cut with TS-55 with fine teeth blade. Jaw drops guaranteed. (You can connect it to vacuum for stronger effect.)
You can try to sell your De Walt now. 

Regards,
VictorL

 

[GreenGA]

As a matter of fact, he is well aware of the difference in tool quality.  He thought long and hard before he bought his Makita CS.  He read every review he could get his hands on and asked as many people as he could, myself included, before making his decision.  I think he secretly wanted to purchase a TS55/75 but just could not justify the price for where he is, at this stage of woodworking.

That all said, his first project, a simple garage workbench, turned out quite nice.  Straight, level, square, without even a wobble.  All 2-by material, though accurate and square as possible, was cut with some difficulty since he had to place them on upside down buckets while he knelt on them to hold them still.  Even his sheets of plywood were cut pretty square without the use of a rail or guide, just his straightest 2x4.  I think he will do quite well as time progresses.

His goal now is to prepare for building a shed in the spring.  Hence, a few strategic tool acquisitions, some small around-the-house projects and he hopes to get his skill level up to match the upcoming task.  Which is why I asked about a SCMS/CMS recommendation from the forum.

All of the postings from Dan Clark's initial detailed account of his experiences through your own, have been very informative.  Especially the underlying question to a lot of the remarks/responses... What does he intend to do with the tool, does he have the room or experience to handle it.  Excellent questions all, and ones I should have thought through and addressed before posting my initial question.

There is no answer for your question. From your description your friend never owned power tools. Did he ever use them? If person never worked with tools he doesn?t understand difference between $70 (on holiday sale in HD) all plastic CMS Ryoby and plastic $1300 CSMS Kapex. For people who didn?t do anything handy they are ?just? saws. It is hard to explain difference between $70 Ryobi and $200 DeWalt. (They will both cut the lumber, right?).  If he will just cut a couple moldings or build a deck cheap saw is an answer.  What he?s saying about your DeWalt saw? (How old is it, and how much are you asking?) . Does he need CMS or CSMS?  
Just let your friend to grow-up. He?ll understand some day difference between professional tool and disposable crap.  
You can show him a trick. Bring a piece of veneered plywood and scribe two straight lines across grains. Then ask him to make a nice straight cut with his Makita (I suppose it is not railed?). Then make cut with TS-55 with fine teeth blade. Jaw drops guaranteed. (You can connect it to vacuum for stronger effect.)

You can try to sell your De Walt now.     ;D

 

[Aegwyn11]

I've got the Makita 1013 as well. Pretty happy with it. Not too thrilled about the bevel locks being cast directly into the table. Because of this, you have to adjust the fence to get everything square, which can be tricky as its pretty much all trial and error (adjust the fence to square, then make the fence straight, readjust to square, restraighten, etc etc). Took me a while to dial everything in, but its nuts on now. Also, I wish the laser was dual like on the Kapex...moving it from one side of the blade to the other is a little annoying, but works just fine.

Also, with a little modification, dust collection with a CT (or shop vac) is every bit as good as I've seen with the Kapex. You just take the crappy little rubber flap behind the blade and use it as a template to cut a much larger rubber flap from some rubber stock that goes all the way down to the table when the saw is down (stock one leaves a several inch gap between flap and table). A side note about the dust collection mod...I've loaned this saw to a friend that used it both pre and post mod. He always just used the bag for DC and noted that DC with the bag got MUCH worse after the mod. So I would guess thats why Makita designed the stock flap the way they did.

Also, my friend has finally decided he needs his own SCMS and has been looking at Craigslist. He's seen a couple of 1013's for $200-$300, so that might be a decent option for your guy.

 

[JeromeM]

As a matter of fact, he is well aware of the difference in tool quality.  He thought long and hard before he bought his Makita CS.  He read every review he could get his hands on and asked as many people as he could, myself included, before making his decision.  I think he secretly wanted to purchase a TS55/75 but just could not justify the price for where he is, at this stage of woodworking.

That all said, his first project, a simple garage workbench, turned out quite nice.  Straight, level, square, without even a wobble.  All 2-by material, though accurate and square as possible, was cut with some difficulty since he had to place them on upside down buckets while he knelt on them to hold them still.  Even his sheets of plywood were cut pretty square without the use of a rail or guide, just his straightest 2x4.  I think he will do quite well as time progresses.

His goal now is to prepare for building a shed in the spring.  Hence, a few strategic tool acquisitions, some small around-the-house projects and he hopes to get his skill level up to match the upcoming task.  Which is why I asked about a SCMS/CMS recommendation from the forum.

All of the postings from Dan Clark's initial detailed account of his experiences through your own, have been very informative.  Especially the underlying question to a lot of the remarks/responses... What does he intend to do with the tool, does he have the room or experience to handle it.  Excellent questions all, and ones I should have thought through and addressed before posting my initial question.

What kind of material or what jobs he is planning on doing is very important.

Personally I have no intention fo doing any crown molding work, nor do I want a SCMS that will cut more than  about 50mm. And while the Kapex is a great saw its cost benefit does not work for me.

I do want one that is as accurate as I can get with reasonable dust collection. (I also find  the TS55 is big enough for me) so the SCMS that I will get when I can get it to me is the Makita LS0714 you can find them for GBP 290 x VAT or with the stand for GBP 328.69 x VAT both include a Drill Driver.

If you can get your mate to take a look at Craigs video post http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=7879.msg79608 Dust Collection Pics

That may be the kind he will want.

 

[Tom Ryan]

I was just about to recommend the Makita 0714 when Jerome beat me to it.  It's a little cheaper than the 1013, I've heard very good things about its accuracy, and it does everything I need it to.

      Product Description From the Manufacturer
      Weighing 27.6 lb, Makita model LS0714 Quad 10 Amp 7-1/2-Inch Sliding Compound
      Miter saw is equipped with 4 steel poles designed to support motor head for deep
      cutting capacity, and 4 linear ball bearings to ensure accurate and vibration-free cutting.
      Precision-machined aluminum base accommodates 2 x 12 in. lumber at 90? and
      2 x 8 in. at 45?. Featuring double sliding mechanism and 7? in. blade, saw utilizes
      10 Amp motor that delivers 6,000 rpm with 9 positive stops at 15, 22.5, 30, 45?
      right or left and 0?.

 

[John Stevens]

Personally I have no intention fo doing any crown molding work, nor do I want a SCMS that will cut more than  about 50mm. And while the Kapex is a great saw its cost benefit does not work for me.

Hmm.  I could use a SCMS for some trim work, but what I really want is one that's accurate enough to use for furniture--a SCMS that can cut accurate miters in material up to 50mm thick.  And yeah, dust collection is very important.  Thanks for the tip--until now I'd been thinking of the 12" Milwaukee, but was put off by the weight.  Kapex isn't out of the question, but price matters.  I find it hard not to buy Festool, but the Kapex doesn't seem to have the same ratio of value to price that the saws and sanders have.

Regards,

John