Bicycle commuting

[DeformedTree]

It was never designed around 1 car per adult, but nothing was done to prevent excess cars...

Prevent excess of cars? You must hate capitalism and the American dream!  We have 1.37 cars per adult, which I think is a drop over where it was. That is also register cars, so non operating ones would bring they number up.

If someone tried to reduce the number of cars here they would be run out of the country on all fronts.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Prevent excess of cars? You must hate capitalism and the American dream!  We have 1.37 cars per adult, which I think is a drop over where it was. That is also register cars, so non operating ones would bring they number up.

If someone tried to reduce the number of cars here they would be run out of the country on all fronts.

Number of cars won't be reduced here either, more and more people get cars. But in America you have all the space of the world, and here space is very limited. While we may not have the highest number of cars per capita, I do believe we have the highest number of cars per square kilometer. And it shows, streets are flowing over.

I am very happy with the change to electric cars. That really makes things a lot more liveable gain, as pollution and noise are sersiously going down.

 

[Bob D.]

"I am very happy with the change to electric cars. That really makes things a lot more liveable gain, as pollution and noise are sersiously going down"

I believe the transition would occur faster if there was a more extensive charging network in place here AND we did not have all the parallel proprietary charging systems. Need Level 3 DC Fast chargers to be as prevalent as gas stations.

 

[Coen]

It was never designed around 1 car per adult, but nothing was done to prevent excess cars...

Prevent excess of cars? You must hate capitalism and the American dream!  We have 1.37 cars per adult, which I think is a drop over where it was. That is also register cars, so non operating ones would bring they number up.

If someone tried to reduce the number of cars here they would be run out of the country on all fronts.

Yes, car addiction is real. It's a personal blessing and a collective pain. More working age people are killed car drivers then by colona.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

I believe the transition would occur faster if there was a more extensive charging network in place here AND we did not have all the parallel proprietary charging systems. Need Level 3 DC Fast chargers to be as prevalent as gas stations.

This ^^^^^^ Here in the UK, it's only Tesla who seem to have charging stations everywhere .... even at many of our major freeway service areas, you're still lucky to find 1 or 2 charging points - plus no guarantee that the charger plug is going to fit your EV socket. IKEA have rows of them on the car parks of every store though !! Very forward-thinking of them. If only everyone else was as focused on this.

 

[Coen]

I believe the transition would occur faster if there was a more extensive charging network in place here AND we did not have all the parallel proprietary charging systems. Need Level 3 DC Fast chargers to be as prevalent as gas stations.

This ^^^^^^ Here in the UK, it's only Tesla who seem to have charging stations everywhere .... even at many of our major freeway service areas, you're still lucky to find 1 or 2 charging points - plus no guarantee that the charger plug is going to fit your EV socket. IKEA have rows of them on the car parks of every store though !! Very forward-thinking of them. If only everyone else was as focused on this.

In front of the Ikea here is a row of bicycle parking that is being used too  [cool]. That does way more for the environment than any amount of e-cars.

Many of the people going to work by car only do so because when they go on bicycle they don't like the amount of assholemobilism. I'd say about 5% of people driving qualify for their license being snipped. That would immediately reduce the amount of cars on the road by 5% and the traffic deaths by 50%. Less assholes in cars when they cause a rise in cycling, a reduction in obesity and an increase in general happiness.

Now this is different in the US where cities were partly demolished to make everyone car dependent.

Oh btw on asholemobilism;https://www.npr.org/2021/06/03/1003...ked-to-drivers-risky-behavior-during-the-pand
[mad]

 

[squall_line]

In front of the Ikea here is a row of bicycle parking that is being used too  [cool]. That does way more for the environment than any amount of e-cars.

The disturbing recent trend is the rise of electric or electric assist bicycles.  Once everyone is going 25+ MPH and plugging in their bike every night like an e-car, is there much difference?  Granted, the electrical use is probably lower than a car, but to what degree?

I've considered an e-assist bike to commute because we live in a valley and I've tried to climb out of it on my old Schwinn 3-speed.  Aside from the fact that the bike isn't designed as a commuter (too hig of a low gear, too low of a high gear), making that climb every day turns me off of the idea of commuting on a regular bike every day.

Then an e-bike costs almost as much as a low-end 250 or 500cc motorcycle or scooter, and I already have a motorcycle and endorsement, so why not just go with a motorcycle?

And so I stick to my car, because it's just more convenient and weather-resistant than any other option, and car seats don't mix well with any of the other options well enough to completely get rid of a car.

 

[Coen]

In front of the Ikea here is a row of bicycle parking that is being used too  [cool]. That does way more for the environment than any amount of e-cars.

The disturbing recent trend is the rise of electric or electric assist bicycles.  Once everyone is going 25+ MPH and plugging in their bike every night like an e-car, is there much difference?  Granted, the electrical use is probably lower than a car, but to what degree?

I've considered an e-assist bike to commute because we live in a valley and I've tried to climb out of it on my old Schwinn 3-speed.  Aside from the fact that the bike isn't designed as a commuter (too hig of a low gear, too low of a high gear), making that climb every day turns me off of the idea of commuting on a regular bike every day.

Then an e-bike costs almost as much as a low-end 250 or 500cc motorcycle or scooter, and I already have a motorcycle and endorsement, so why not just go with a motorcycle?

And so I stick to my car, because it's just more convenient and weather-resistant than any other option, and car seats don't mix well with any of the other options well enough to completely get rid of a car.

How is the rise of ebikes disturbing? The improvement for the environment of someone switching from car to eBike is way bigger than someone switching a SUV for an heavier SUV with battery...

Not everyone is going 25 + MPH with them. The limit here is 25 km/h for the common eletric assist bicycle without license plate, 45 km/h with license plate. No plugging in every night because the common 500 Wh battery will easily last 100-200 km... And yes, that capacity is 1/160th of a Tesla Model 3 battery that will only go twice as far...
not to mention the amount of resources for making a Tesla vs bike....

I don't really care for the 25 km/h ebikes. I usually ride just a bit faster on a bicycle without e-assist, so it would be death weight for me. I don't want the 45 km/h version because of the helmet and license plate.

 

[AlexThePalex]

The disturbing recent trend is the rise of electric or electric assist bicycles.  Once everyone is going 25+ MPH and plugging in their bike every night like an e-car, is there much difference?  Granted, the electrical use is probably lower than a car, but to what degree?

To the degree of moving 80 to 90 Kg on a bike compared to a Tesla that weighs 20x as much at 1800 KG. With greatly reduced air resistance and ground friction also. And that car can go on the highway at 120 Kph, while the bike is limited at 25 Kph, mostly. Energy use ratio is probably around 1 to 80.

Of course the car offers many advantages over a bicycle, but in pure energy efficiency per kilometer, the bike wins by miles.

 

[DeformedTree]

I've considered an e-assist bike to commute because we live in a valley and I've tried to climb out of it on my old Schwinn 3-speed.  Aside from the fact that the bike isn't designed as a commuter (too hig of a low gear, too low of a high gear), making that climb every day turns me off of the idea of commuting on a regular bike every day.
...

And so I stick to my car, because it's just more convenient and weather-resistant than any other option, and car seats don't mix well with any of the other options well enough to completely get rid of a car.

How is the rise of ebikes disturbing? The improvement for the environment of someone switching from car to eBike is way bigger than someone switching a SUV for an heavier SUV with battery...

Not everyone is going 25 + MPH with them. The limit here is 25 km/h for the common eletric assist bicycle without license plate, 45 km/h with license plate. No plugging in every night because the common 500 Wh battery will easily last 100-200 km... And yes, that capacity is 1/160th of a Tesla Model 3 battery that will only go twice as far...
not to mention the amount of resources for making a Tesla vs bike....

I don't really care for the 25 km/h ebikes. I usually ride just a bit faster on a bicycle without e-assist, so it would be death weight for me. I don't want the 45 km/h version because of the helmet and license plate.

Because there isn't a limit on them here. Also a lot of them work without the person pedaling, so they are just using them as small electric motorcycles.  Some bike shops won't sell models that will run without pedaling, but plenty of places will.  So now you have a person going car speeds on sidewalks.  There is no helmet license laws for them.

In the end, his post sums up the situation for a lot of folks.  The idea of commuting on a bike sounds good. But so few could ever make it happen.

1) Commute is too long
2) They would have to travel on roads, as dedicated bike paths are very rare, even in most major cities.
3) If you have to go on a road, death is pretty much certain before long.
4) Climate/Weather.  There is only a narrow band across the US where it just isn't way to hot most the time, or way too cold most the time.  Very little of the US has a climate like Netherlands.  No one wants to be bundled up for 0F and in a snow storm commuting on a bike, No one wants to ride a bike to work when it's in the upper 70s and beyond, and the south of this country is more like 80-105F most the time.  Then you also have stuff like rain too.  When you find that happy zone, there is not a lot of cities in that zone.

In the end, bikes only work in a few limited places. 

 

[mino]

E-bike make commuting in a hilly city/town feasible for "normal" people.

Try riding a "Holland" bike in Prague, and you will very, very fast realize it is a no-go. The top speed is not an issue, on straight you can easily ride it faster and on the hill there is no way even with assist you will make 25kph.

In a pancake place like The Netherlands, it makes little sense indeed.
That is about it transport-wise.

I also do not agree about no-assist e-bikes being bad. If you classify them as "bad" then you are either an extremist who considers anything except walking and normal bicycle as "bad" or you are likely not aware of their /miniscule/ environmental footprint.

As mentioned. One Tesla owner is about as much a footprint as 100 ebike owners ...

 

[DeformedTree]

E-bike make commuting in a hilly city/town feasible for "normal" people.

Try riding a "Holland" bike in Prague, and you will very, very fast realize it is a no-go. The top speed is not an issue, on straight you can easily ride it faster and on the hill there is no way even with assist you will make 25kph.

In a pancake place like The Netherlands, it makes little sense indeed.
That is about it transport-wise.

I also do not agree about no-assist e-bikes being bad. If you classify them as "bad" then you are either an extremist who considers anything except walking and normal bicycle as "bad" or you are likely not aware of their /miniscule/ environmental footprint.

I think you miss understood. I'm referring to bikes that allow you to use the electric drive without pedaling as bad. Those bikes are still bikes, so they can go all the places bicycles go, yet are used as motorcycles, the people using them never pedal at all.  This has nothing to do with eco stuff, or "what is a real bike", etc.  It's a safety issue, and that is why some stores will not sell them. Until they ban them, this will be an issue.

Electric motorcycles are a great thing, and if folks want those, by all means get them. But they do not belong on sidewalks, bike paths, etc with other bikes, walkers, strollers, etc.

Electric assist bikes are a great things, like you say, it opens up the window where people can use them. But that function can't change the weather where a person lives. But, as it is, the cities where climate/weather is really good for bikes, are also cities where hills are thing and the electric assist is a big help.

 

[mino]

E-bike make commuting in a hilly city/town feasible for "normal" people.

Try riding a "Holland" bike in Prague, and you will very, very fast realize it is a no-go. The top speed is not an issue, on straight you can easily ride it faster and on the hill there is no way even with assist you will make 25kph.

In a pancake place like The Netherlands, it makes little sense indeed.
That is about it transport-wise.

I also do not agree about no-assist e-bikes being bad. If you classify them as "bad" then you are either an extremist who considers anything except walking and normal bicycle as "bad" or you are likely not aware of their /miniscule/ environmental footprint.

I think you miss understood. I'm referring to bikes that allow you to use the electric drive without pedaling as bad. ...

No, I interpreted the same. I disagree.

The reason for allowing bicycles where cars or bikes cannot go is NOT because they are human powered but because they are light and slow. Hence the risk of driving into someone AND causing a major injury is a couple orders of magnitude lower. They are also way more nimble too, so can safely move around where even a bike cannot.

Whether they are human or motor powered makes no difference. Key is weight and top speed.

A normal human-powered bike makes 20mph long term and 30mph short term or down a hill and weights under 50lbs. As long as a motor-driven vehicle fits into those/similar characteristics, there is no reason for making different rules for it.

This would be a long post- Instead I would recommend anyone who wants to dig into "what happens if everyone used bikes" to travel or watch videos from the Netherlands. No helmets, no cycling gear, relatively high speeds /where conditions allow/ and an absolute minimum of collisions with major injuries in relation to the people miles taken.

 

[Coen]

There are no weight restrictions on non-motorized bicycles, nor speed restrictions. However, if you allow what effectively are electric scooters into that mix, the speeds will be way way higher.

You can get an electric scooter (25 kmh or 45 kmh) just fine here. It does however come with a license plate. The 25 kmh "assist" version does not but requires you peddle as well. However, you fill still see lots of people just pedaling as little as they can; those are the same people that complain the battery won't last what was declared  [big grin]. Previously however these people drove a car, so it's still a big improvement.

The power to weight ratio is also a thing, the e-stuff can accelerate like 99% of 'human on a bicycle' can't.

Personally I ride a velomobile; no helmet, no license plate, the thing weighs 33 kg empty and I ride up to 60 km/h with it. And oh; no battery. And in NL I can freely choose between bike path and main road because of it's width.

But contrary to most of the (e)scooters I actually do consider safety of overtaking...

Anyway; demolishing cities to "adapt" them to the car will spawn a situation that is hostile to cycling, and that in itself reinforces the "drive everywhere" thing that the USA suffers from.

Once you increase density, cars become more and more of a curse. And the more you get rid of cars in a high-density area, the more livable it becomes. The city I live in has a perfect ring road around the city center, but the car addicted club still drives straight through. So the city is now 'cutting' some roads where you simply get shoved aside to the ring road if you attempt to drive all the way through. Local car addicts are ticked of course, but I'm pretty sure that in my city they will lose and the livability of the city will increase.

Funny bike fact; Brompton folding bikes sells two versions of their frame suspension block. A "normal" version that in Europe is the default option and as option the "stiff" version "for heavier people". In the US they apparently fit the stiff version by default

 

[mino]

There are no weight restrictions on non-motorized bicycles, nor speed restrictions. However, if you allow what effectively are electric scooters into that mix, the speeds will be way way higher.
...

A normal human-powered bike makes 20mph long term and 30mph short term or down a hill and weights under 50lbs. As long as a motor-driven vehicle fits into those/similar characteristics, there is no reason for making different rules for it.

Per bold. FOr traffic rules, it should not matter if has motor or not. If forces assist or not. Only the max /powered/ speed and weight should matter.

And on the speed part, I consider the 25 kph as an unfortunate choice that came from the wrong assumption at the time single-speed bikes were common /it was promoted by Toyota in the EU in the late 80s. It should be 30 kph instead.

In CZ today almost every e-bike is illegally "chipped" to have the limit lifted, but most people are OK with just "fooling" the controller the bike has smaller tires. /on a 29" bike the 26" setting gives you about 29kph top powered speed/ That tells you all you need to know that the limit is too low - for normal use - but "just by a little".

The thing is, if you have an e-bike which is configured for assist up to 25, you will be slowing-down surrounding /bicycle/ traffic which is between 25-30 kph on a flat or a slight downhill.
Most people do not want 50 kph e-bikes, but they do not like the choice between "slowing down non-powered bikers" and "not able to drive an e-bike /for the hilly sections/".

 

[woodbutcherbower]

‘Electric Assist’ is a BS term invented by marketing suits who sit around a table in corporate BS brainstorming sessions, who 100% know that the fat guy who buys the product will never use the pedals. Like - NEVER. Apart from the fat guys, this mantra also applies to 99% of other buyers - people are lazy and are always more inclined to press a speed control rather than actually make any effort. But hey - they provide pedals so people have a choice - right?

Reason?? Zero commitment. No committment to making just a tiny scratch on the imminent global fossil fuel extinction, no commitment to getting fitter, thinner and healthier, no commitment  to anything apart from getting to their destination as easily and as free from effort as possible, whilst dropping by at the nearest drive-thru-fat-burger-drenched-in-maple-syrup-deep-fried-in-beer-with-fried-chicken-pizza-mac’n’cheese-side-order joint on the way.

Hills, commuting distance, heat, cold and rain are pathetic, convenient, lame excuses. I never saw Bedouin or Maasai complaining that it was too hot. I never saw Inuit complaining that it was too cold. I never saw the citizens of Switzerland complaining about their country not being flat. These people simply adapted to their conditions - and they dealt with it. If your commute is a little far - get out of bed 30 minutes earlier. If it rains - wear waterproofs. Worried about death on the freeway? Use the settings on any decent GPS SatNav which will figure out a perfect small-road off-highway route instead. Excuses, excuses, excuses. Stuff like this is only a problem if you choose to make it one, or if you’re too bloated and lazy to invest some effort in committing to a solution.

And for those concerned about the impact of e-bike charging - have a think about we forum members (and 10’s of thousands of others like us globally) all plugging our Li-Ion batteries into chargers every night ……… I know that Greta Thunberg gets some bad press, but you have to kinda admit that she does have a point. What a shame that so many regard this as our children’s problem - not ours.

 

[semenza]

‘Electric Assist’ is a BS term invented by marketing suits who sit around a table in corporate BS brainstorming sessions, who 100% know that the fat guy who buys the product will never use the pedals. Like - NEVER. Apart from the fat guys, this mantra also applies to 99% of other buyers - people are lazy and are always more inclined to press a speed control rather than actually make any effort. But hey - they provide pedals so people have a choice - right?

Reason?? Zero commitment. No committment to making just a tiny scratch on the imminent global fossil fuel extinction, no commitment to getting fitter, thinner and healthier, no commitment  to anything apart from getting to their destination as easily and as free from effort as possible, whilst dropping by at the nearest drive-thru-fat-burger-drenched-in-maple-syrup-deep-fried-in-beer-with-fried-chicken-pizza-mac’n’cheese-side-order joint on the way.

Hills, commuting distance, heat, cold and rain are pathetic, convenient, lame excuses. I never saw Bedouin or Maasai complaining that it was too hot. I never saw Inuit complaining that it was too cold. I never saw the citizens of Switzerland complaining about their country not being flat. These people simply adapted to their conditions - and they dealt with it. If your commute is a little far - get out of bed 30 minutes earlier. If it rains - wear waterproofs. Worried about death on the freeway? Use the settings on any decent GPS SatNav which will figure out a perfect small-road off-highway route instead. Excuses, excuses, excuses. Stuff like this is only a problem if you choose to make it one, or if you’re too bloated and lazy to invest some effort in committing to a solution.

And for those concerned about the impact of e-bike charging - have a think about we forum members (and 10’s of thousands of others like us globally) all plugging our Li-Ion batteries into chargers every night ……… I know that Greta Thunberg gets some bad press, but you have to kinda admit that she does have a point. What a shame that so many regard this as our children’s problem - not ours.

    ^^^ That sounds kind of good ^^^  [tongue]

    In many places it is not lazy or an excuse. I would like to see you bicycle (electric or otherwise) to work in the winter where I live on any regular basis, city or country, good luck. Summer would not be too bad as long as there is a shower waiting for you at work. It is also common for commutes in my area to be 20 - 30 - 40 miles each way. Probably add 5 - 10 more if you want to avoid highways. Your 25 mph scooter will be OK  if  conditions allow.

    There are lots of very real reasons and situations. Point is not every place is even remotely ideal or even borderline doable for two wheel commutes if you want to do something in life other than commute and work.

    Seth

 

[Cheese]

Wow this is funny…talking about going off topic, I hadn’t read this for the last several weeks because enough is enough about eBay…but now after tonight I’m in the middle of a bicycle war…very funny.

Of course if I had a valid ballot….the motorcycle would be king.  [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]

 

[AlexThePalex]

And on the speed part, I consider the 25 kph as an unfortunate choice that came from the wrong assumption at the time single-speed bikes were common /it was promoted by Toyota in the EU in the late 80s. It should be 30 kph instead.

Here in Holland that limit has to do with government regulation. Before electric bikes, for decades we used to have 2 categories of mopeds, one with a speed up to 25 Kph, and a blue license plate, where you do not have to wear a helmet, and one with a speed up to 50 Kph, and a yellow license plate, where you do have to wear a helmet.

With the advent of electric bikes they just followed these categories, up to 25 Kph, no helmet, no license plate, and regarded a normal bike, and above 25 and faster, the bike needs a license plate and you have to wear a helmet.

I am happy with the 25 Kph limit. I am on the road everyday with my bike ( I do all the pedalling myself) and you don't know how irrisponsable people are with their e-bikes when they suddenly go so fast without having to work for it. People who rode all their lives at speeds of 12 Kph now can go twice as fast, but their habits and reactions are not up to it and they create a lot of dangerous situations and accidents.

They also don't realise that falling at 25 Kph can do serious damage to themselves. At that speed you can fall, hit a curb with your head and have serious trauma. I found this out myself when I got my first fast touring bike with 24 gears, within a year I slipped on a wet bridge at 28 Kph, broke my clavicle and had a nice skid mark on my head, though it was only superficial. Neverthless, in the hospital they did some thorough checks on my head also. That was the same day Michael Schumacher banged his head on a stone and became a plant. I decided to wear a helmet from then on.

 

[AlexThePalex]

‘Electric Assist’ is a BS term invented by marketing suits who sit around a table in corporate BS brainstorming sessions, who 100% know that the fat guy who buys the product will never use the pedals.

If you don't pedal, the electric motor won't kick in. But, you don't need to put a lot of force in it, just keep the pedals moving, that's all.

I have not seen any electric-only bikes here in Holland.

People who want to stay healthy using a bike should not get an e-bike but a normal one. Here most people see the bike as a form of transportation, to get from A to B, and not as a workout.