Bicycle commuting

[Coen]

Before electric bikes, for decades we used to have 2 categories of mopeds, one with a speed up to 25 Kph, and a blue license plate, where you do not have to wear a helmet, and one with a speed up to 50 Kph, and a yellow license plate, where you do have to wear a helmet.

50=45
And the 25 used to be "motor assisted", so still had pedals, but that requirement was eventually scrapped.

And with the Dutch being Dutch... about 96% of the 25 kmh category is "tuned" and rides way way faster, so starting July 1st 2022... they have to wear a helmet too. One of the most stupid things; creating a new law founded on the basis of not enforcing an existing one.

If you don't pedal, the electric motor won't kick in. But, you don't need to put a lot of force in it, just keep the pedals moving, that's all.

That also depends on what kind of ebike you have. The ones with torque sensor you actually do have to really pedal yourself and the assist is a certain ratio. The ones with front or rear motor usually only have a sensor to pedal movement... and yes, those can be ridden with minimum input. A familymember of mine recently got one with a rear wheel motor. I rode on it one trip. I really disliked it. It stops the motor too late when you stop pedalling, once you go faster than 25 you have to drag the death weight of the motor and battery along and at 40 km/h (just me) it became unstable, like most women's bicycles.

I have not seen any electric-only bikes here in Holland.

I've seen them. They are just more rare.

People who want to stay healthy using a bike should not get an e-bike but a normal one. Here most people see the bike as a form of transportation, to get from A to B, and not as a workout.

Yes, exactly. However, in the US all the distances are longer, because in between everything there is a car park.

Another added benefit of doing grocery shopping by bicycle is that you will learn quickly to cut out the soft drinks.

Regarding people going 25 kmh while not being used to it... well, same applies to car drivers, that still are causing most death on the road. They could have done slightly different with the speed limit though. Now it is 250W limit and 25 km/h limit. Personally I'd rather have 100W and no speed limit.

People falling with their ebike is usually the dumb bicycles with front motor. They are ridiculously unstable.

 

[Packard]

Years ago they were trying to promote bicycle commuting on Long Island and I wrote to Newsday (a Long Island newspaper) and this got published.

"Efforts to promote bicycle commuting will fail until these two conditions are met:
1.  Secure lockup facility for the bicycles.
2.  Shower facility at the destination location."

Some laborers would be OK to commute and not shower, but most office workers would not.  I am still of the opinion that unless both conditions are provided for, efforts to promote bicycle commuting will fail.

 

[pixelated]

I've bicycle-commuted with and without the availability of showers. In most environments it's doable without showers, certainly a shower is the most effective freshening up option, but not the only one. Further, in most places, most of the heat and sweat generation is in the afternoon going home, so presumably the shower availability is good for that part of the trip. [smile]
If one is inclined to commute by bike, but not doing it solely due to shower availability, they are making it into an excuse, IMHO.

As for electric assist, I'm in the process of converting my wife's bike to electric assist, we live in very hilly terrain, and she has back problems that make riding up hill problematical. The system I'm adding only works when pedaling, and you can select how much assistance it provides.
It's an experiment however, and yet to be tried, as we don't have the wheel back from the builder, I'm hopeful it will work out.

 

[Packard]

A coworker's daughter has had an electric-assist on her wheelchair for 20+ years.  (The electric-assist began with Yamaha's wheelchair back in the 1990s.)

It should be noted that this is not controlled by a throttle.  The assist measures the amount of effort used to advance and when that effort exceeds a preset amount assist comes into play. 

In the USA electric assist does not require any special license.  A throttle-controlled bike would require a license in some areas and in all areas if it exceeds a fixed speed limit (20 to 30 mph in most areas). 

In some places it cannot be made legal no matter what you do.  And you simply have to hope that law enforcement ignores the breach. 

 

[Coen]

Years ago they were trying to promote bicycle commuting on Long Island and I wrote to Newsday (a Long Island newspaper) and this got published.

"Efforts to promote bicycle commuting will fail until these two conditions are met:
1.  Secure lockup facility for the bicycles.
2.  Shower facility at the destination location."

Some laborers would be OK to commute and not shower, but most office workers would not.  I am still of the opinion that unless both conditions are provided for, efforts to promote bicycle commuting will fail.

Half my fellow bicycle commuters park their bicycle outside the company's fence instead of inside in the fence in the provided shed because it saves them 500m. This includes ebikes. Never heard of any being stolen. But next to a busy road, so I guess that helps.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Until the company I work for moved (almost 2 years ago) I was a bike commuter for several years. No electric stuff, just pedaling. It was about 8 miles each way and crossing over the river that divides the city from north-south. That meant going down into and climbing back up the valley that accommodates it.
The move to over 21 miles kind of killed the commute though. It's not too far to ride, I do 20 mile rides all the time, but it just takes too long to do that early in the morning.
I did it year-round in central Ohio, so the weather was quite variable.
The worst part of it by far was the cars. Early in the morning was fine, there were very few cars to deal with. The ride home was quite different, many times changing my route because of the traffic. There is a way to do this ride, at least partly, on bike trails that get away from the cars, but it adds a few miles to the distance.
Around here it is totally illegal for an adult to ride a bike on the sidewalk, with or without a motor. You have to ride on the road going with traffic and obeying all traffic signs/laws just like a car.
Between losing the commute and the pandemic, I have dropped from 4500-5000 miles per year to 1200-1500. I love my bikes and need to get back into riding more.

 

[Coen]

Yes, the self-enforcing car addiction; no infrastructure... no cyclists = car industry gets cycling infrastructure blocked by it's lobby. Combine with oversized cars, no real requirements for a drivers license and voila; you end up with a near 4.7x higher deathrate per cycled km. Also 55% higher death rate for vehicle km's though...

The 8 year old kid that kills himself with daddy's gun always gets in the news even on the other side of the ocean. But the 27.000 Americans each year that would not have "died in traffic" if the USA had the same rate as we do... nope; no news.

 

[WillAdams]

Commuted at my previous job (~7 miles each way) for a couple of years, taking a hobo bath in the sink/bathroom stall year-round. It worked well, had to get off the road at one or two points, but mostly it worked well.

New job is more distant (~11 miles) and either along much busier highways, or even longer (~14 miles), and I'm able to carpool w/ my wife, so haven't, despite there being shower facilities.

 

[semenza]

The point I was trying to make isn't about the details of showers, weather, highways, distance , etc.  Those were examples attempting to illustrate that things quite simply not the same everywhere. Those are the things that make the difference, but not the point.

My point is that a lot of people assume that what will work for them where they live, in the conditions and circumstances of their local and situation will work for everyone else. Which is a patently false assumption.

Seth

 

[jcrowe1950]

    In many places it is not lazy or an excuse. I would like to see you bicycle (electric or otherwise) to work in the winter where I live on any regular basis, city or country, good luck. Summer would not be too bad as long as there is a shower waiting for you at work. It is also common for commutes in my area to be 20 - 30 - 40 miles each way. Probably add 5 - 10 more if you want to avoid highways. Your 25 mph scooter will be OK  if  conditions allow.

    There are lots of very real reasons and situations. Point is not every place is even remotely ideal or even borderline doable for two wheel commutes if you want to do something in life other than commute and work.

    Seth

Good points....

    Back in the early 80s, I commuted to work by bicycle almost every day in Austin, TX. We did have shower facilities and Austin was much smaller back then. I knew people who commuted in winter in New Hampshire, but I considered them, um, well, quite mad. Given my experience as a longtime cyclist, there's no way I'd ever consider bicycle commuting in an urban environment today...too many people distracted by cell phones and the like.

    To the point of electric bicycles, they are improving but battery viability in extremely cold environments will always be an issue. Greg Lemond has a business in Knoxville making carbon fiber based electric bicycles at Festool prices. They start at $4.5K. They really do look great but dang....

 

[Coen]

Given my experience as a longtime cyclist, there's no way I'd ever consider bicycle commuting in an urban environment today...too many people distracted by cell phones and the like.

Mainly the drivers that are distracted are the problem. And so once again; a self re-enforcing circle of some assholes in cars that causes... more cars.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I've been bicycle commuting in an urban environment all my life. I always feel prefectly safe on my bike. I think a huge problem with people who can't make it work is their mentality.

 

[Coen]

I've been bicycle commuting in an urban environment all my life. I always feel prefectly safe on my bike. I think a huge problem with people who can't make it work is their mentality.

The rate at which American drivers kill cyclist is 4x higher than it is where we live. You can have bad drivers like we do in NL as long as the infrastructure is 'fine' (NL), or bad infrastructure with good drivers (Germany) but bad infrastructure with bad drivers is rather unattractive.
The share of SUVs has something to do with it too. That type of vehicle requires a certain "fuck everyone else" attitude to buy to begin with, has huge blindspots and when it then does collide with a cyclist or pedestrian the weight and height make it do way more damage.

 

[semenza]

You know ..............  a lot of people actually use SUVs to transport stuff too. And pick-up trucks and vans. And half the SUVs on the market now are smaller than many cars used to be. Heck it used to be that a VW Golf was a small car. I owned one and it was about the same size as a lot of SUVs. Anyway, I digress.

    What is good for you is NOT necessarily good for everyone else and every other location on the planet.  And what is good for me is NOT necessarily good for everyone else and every other location on the planet.

    I will just reiterate that where you live is not the same as where other people live and vice versa. I am not sure why people can't seem to understand that.

Seth

 

[Vtshopdog]

I've been bicycle commuting in an urban environment all my life. I always feel prefectly safe on my bike. I think a huge problem with people who can't make it work is their mentality.

Totally agree but there are some urban areas I've visited where riding seems nominally unpleasant if not suicidal.
I actually owned a bike/ski store for 35 years before retiring and commuted maybe 300 days a year.  For me the key was not to "Assume drivers can't see you" but rather to operate under assumption that drivers did see me, were actually trying to hit me and it was my job to at least make that hard for them to do. 

 

[Coen]

You know ..............  a lot of people actually use SUVs to transport stuff too.

Yes right. And my grandma got vitamins from the raisins in the currant buns  [big grin]

And pick-up trucks and vans. And half the SUVs on the market now are smaller than many cars used to be. Heck it used to be that a VW Golf was a small car. I owned one and it was about the same size as a lot of SUVs. Anyway, I digress.

Yes, all the cars got bigger. But SUVs are still worse.

    What is good for you is NOT necessarily good for everyone else and every other location on the planet.  And what is good for me is NOT necessarily good for everyone else and every other location on the planet.

Not really. SUV's are bad everywhere except the showroom.

    I will just reiterate that where you live is not the same as where other people live and vice versa. I am not sure why people can't seem to understand that.

Seth

That's what I said; higher SUV share in the US makes cycling in the US worse.

I've been bicycle commuting in an urban environment all my life. I always feel prefectly safe on my bike. I think a huge problem with people who can't make it work is their mentality.

The rate at which American drivers kill cyclist is 4x higher than it is where we live. You can have bad drivers like we do in NL as long as the infrastructure is 'fine' (NL), or bad infrastructure with good drivers (Germany) but bad infrastructure with bad drivers is rather unattractive.
The share of SUVs has something to do with it too. That type of vehicle requires a certain "__________ everyone else" attitude to buy to begin with, has huge blindspots and when it then does collide with a cyclist or pedestrian the weight and height make it do way more damage.

If people would stop taking up cycling, we could get the death number lower as we kill off the existing cycling herd.  If more people keep cycling then the death rates will go up.

Funny you mention that. With muh Colona lockdowns traffic was reduced bigtime. In NL the traffic fatilities didn't lower in the same proportion. In the US... they even went up. Leave it to motorist to kill more of each other when there are fewer on the same wide road; 7.2% more deaths and 13% less miles traveled. 

The vehicles type isn't really the issue.  A VW golf hits you, or a tractor trailer, results are bad either way.  In the end, our roads are not built for bikes, and our road speeds are way faster.  Surface roads, with businesses/houses/everything on them that are posted 50mph with everyone doing 65mph on them are everywhere in urban areas, and those are roads you have to get on with a bike to get anyplace.

Well, that 50 mph limit translates to 80 kmh, the same default limit outside of buildup areas here too. In Germany that default limit is 100 km/h and I have cycled on those as well. As long as it's only German car drivers it's perfectly fine. However, all the close passes are the yellow plated cars... (read; Dutch drivers (the Germans have white license plates)).

The type of car that hits you is really the issue. An SUV strikes higher, does direct damage to the body and pulls it's victim underneath. While a VW Golf for example will hit the legs and throws it's victim on the windshield. It's not really that hard to imagine what is more likely to kill...

And the likelyhood is also increased because of bigass blindspots on those SUVs. Even parked they are a danger, because a cyclist will be able to look over a parked normal car while a SUV will block sight. Same goes for car drivers; they can look through another parked car, but not through a high up SUV.

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I've lived in bike friendly parts of the country, bikers got killed constantly. 

Yes, because US drivers are bad and because SUVs are especially deathly. Combine for extra drama. I'd also like to see your definition of bike friendly. It usually differs greatly from what we in NL would consider bike friendly.

We need dedicated trails for bikes, and those are rare in most areas. Also I'm curious how unified laws are over there on where you can and where you can not bike and how.

NL has a big share of "must use" cycle paths. These differ from pesky bad-surfaced ones that just are a bonus to car drivers to really nice asfalt paths. In Germany the cyclists went to court over "must use" paths and they won; even when "must use" signage is present, you can still lawfully ignore it when the path isn't suited (=is more dangerous).

In the US, the rules are different in ever state,

Well, in that sense you can compare US states to European countries.

and within the states can vary by counties and even towns.  Some places, you must bike on road, never on sidewalk, other places never on road, must be on sidewalk, some areas such as downtowns, biking on street is illegal, bike must be on sidewalk, but you must walk the bike,

Lol. That is ridiculous. Afaik in the UK they defacto allow sidewalk cycling for kids up to 10 years.

so what is the point of using the bike if you have a couple miles you have to walk it. What side of the road should you be on? Depends on the state.  If I'm on my bike and have to go with traffic, but if walking must go opposite of traffic which side of street do I go on when walking the bike?

Dutch rule about what side to walk on if no sidewalk is present was scrapped ~25 years ago.

Distracted drivers are an issue, and pedestrian deaths are on the rise, but that is in part person in car on cell phone, and person crossing street on cell phone.

Well, what percentage of pedestrians on the phone cross the street without looking while not having priority? And even if they do; they are the only victim in 99% of cases. In case of drivers that aren't looking... they tend to kill, not be killed. That is why the fines are different too.

Every day we can read about the most retarded "accidents" in the newspaper. Like the death woman in the toppled car besides the road with an open text message on the phone; "I'm tired but don't want to      ".
Or right in front of the house here; a low-use parking lot exit with perfect view lines onto the priority cycling path. And still those drivers manage to ram a few each year. The local government now placed completely redundant shark teeth. Or like we had half a year ago; middle of the night, empty road, 50 km/h limit. Some woman manages to crash her car into a parked car, pushing it forward into yet another car; "I might have been on the phone". Or when they 'cut the road' and placed a 'bus trap' with way over the top signage. Still half a dozen cars that crashed into that in the first year. And before the street was 'cut' they fined 80%+ of drivers whenever they did some radar speed limit enforcing. That stuff got published in the local newspaper; "Limit 50 km/h, total cars passed; 1237, average speed 65 km/h, maximum 95 km/h, 980 fines"

While in all that time since the road was cut way more cyclists passed the same street and the worst I've seen is some girls cycling side by side crashing into each other because they held each other's handlebar  [huh].

 

[semenza]

You know ..............  a lot of people actually use SUVs to transport stuff too.

Yes right. And my grandma got vitamins from the raisins in the currant buns  [big grin]

And pick-up trucks and vans. And half the SUVs on the market now are smaller than many cars used to be. Heck it used to be that a VW Golf was a small car. I owned one and it was about the same size as a lot of SUVs. Anyway, I digress.

Yes, all the cars got bigger. But SUVs are still worse.

    What is good for you is NOT necessarily good for everyone else and every other location on the planet.  And what is good for me is NOT necessarily good for everyone else and every other location on the planet.

Not really. SUV's are bad everywhere except the showroom.

    I will just reiterate that where you live is not the same as where other people live and vice versa. I am not sure why people can't seem to understand that.

Seth

That's what I said; higher SUV share in the US makes cycling in the US worse.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

    My main point is not about SUVs. My main comment is not about SUVs.

    It is about this idea that bicycle commuting will work for everyone, everywhere.

      What is good for you is NOT necessarily good for everyone else and every other location on the planet.  And what is good for me is NOT necessarily good for everyone else and every other location on the planet.

      I will just reiterate that where you (not you specifically) live is not the same as where other people live and vice versa. I am not sure why people can't seem to understand that. And continue to push something that is not workable in all places. And even if it is demonstrated to not be workable will simply default to ...... ' oh, that is just an excuse'  or ' it's your attitude' .  When the truth is that they do not have enough "in my shoes" information. And then when that info is provided they simply dismiss it or choose not to believe what they are told.

    My main point is not about the details or specifics e.g.: SUVs, weather, roads, distance, and so on. Those are all reasons, yes actual real world reasons, why bicycle commuting will work wonders in some places and not so well in others.
 
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    And for the sub topic  ................................. 

          No,  cars have gotten smaller not bigger. Every car type / size is smaller now (within it's category) than it was in previous years. Even SUVs are smaller now than they used to be. Yes, there are still giant SUVs. But what I see most are small to midsize on the road. And overall they are all smaller than the previous decades SUVs. Maybe it is the opposite where you live though?

       

      And you can believe it or not but there are some people that  do  transport things in an SUV.

      But this is not really about SUVs.

Seth

         

 

[Coen]

Interesting on cars getting smaller in the US. But then again the starting point was way out there...

Yes, cars are really getting bigger here. Not really, but more people are buying bigger cars. Especially the height and width are annoying and more dangerous.

If I'm killed by a Focus or killed by a Suburban,  I'm still killed either way, size didn't matter.  I don't want to be hit by any of them.

The SUV is 1) more likely to hit you and 2) more likely to kill you if it hits you. This is confirmed by studies that all arrive that 2-3x higher likelyhood you die when hit by SUV vs normal car as a pedestrian.