Big Doors with Domino XL--upper limit?

[Cheese]

I'd be concerned about having that much door above the top hinge.

I second that opinion...you'll have over 3' of a large, wide, heavy door unsupported above the top hinge location. Are these entrance doors that will be constantly opened & closed or something used less often for more aesthetic purposes?

It'd be interesting to figure out how much weight is in the unsupported upper panel. Because the panel is 3' x 6', I'll bet it's a lot considering the door material and the tempered thermo-pane glass.

 

[SitkaZach]

I second that opinion...you'll have over 3' of a large, wide, heavy door unsupported above the top hinge location. Are these entrance doors that will be constantly opened & closed or something used less often for more aesthetic purposes?

It'd be interesting to figure out how much weight is in the unsupported upper panel. Because the panel is 3' x 6', I'll bet it's a lot considering the door material and the thermo-pane glass.

Good points. I'll do some testing to see how the joints behave. I think I can do (3) double rows of dominoes, and can also back the strap hinge with steel well into the upper rail. But you both have valid points, well worth considering. Certainly most of the weight of a door and hinge load is on the upper part of door and upper hinge...and that's a serious mechanical disadvantage. I may need to go to traditional joinery, which I would feel very confident in strength. I've also considered building with dominoes, then thru doweling with 1" dowels.

Glass is about 130 pounds, give or take, for the top panel. Total wood weight is under 250 for 3X stock.

Thanks for the caution.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Obviously the top hinge needs to be extremely strong. I’m not familiar with high capacity hinges but can you even find one that can take large enough screws?

The door frame will need to be reinforced too. Assuming stud frame wall construction I’d want to open up 2 or 3 cavities and strap the studs together and add blocking to spread the load from the hinge. Not just for the initial load but to resist allowing the door to sag over time.

Do these doors need to be frame and panel construction. If not could be a good place for Sing Core hollow torsion panel doors. You could add thinner stock to simulate frame and panel style.

 

[smorgasbord]

I'll third (or fourth/fifth) the hinge placement concern.

Here's a capture from a document from Soss on hinge placement:


Note how when they add a third hinge, it's in the top half, and even the 4th hinge isn't that far down from the middle, and then the 5th hinge is again above the centerline. This says to me that hinges above the middle are more important, and your design precludes that.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but these are big, tall doors and so they're going to be heavy. Making the door structurally sound is one challenge, making the jamb equally strong (or having studs near enough that the screws can reach) is another, and the hinges themselves a third, and the screws needed a fourth.

Challenging, but do-able if you're willing to put in the effort.

 

[SitkaZach]

I'll third (or fourth/fifth) the hinge placement concern.

Here's a capture from a document from Soss on hinge placement:
View attachment 381472

Note how when they add a third hinge, it's in the top half, and even the 4th hinge isn't that far down from the middle, and then the 5th hinge is again above the centerline. This says to me that hinges above the middle are more important, and your design precludes that.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but these are big, tall doors and so they're going to be heavy. Making the door structurally sound is one challenge, making the jamb equally strong (or having studs near enough that the screws can reach) is another, and the hinges themselves a third, and the screws needed a fourth.

Challenging, but do-able if you're willing to put in the effort.

Thanks! That's a fantastic diagram, and one I heartily believe in. The three hinge configuration in the diagram make much much more sense than standard middle placement.

My apologies that I didn't see notifications of posts.

To start with framing, I should have specified. I have 10X12 timberframe posts.
Here's what the doors would look like in the space. Overall width outside of post to outside of post is 28'.


I adjusted the design to look a bit better. Skinnied up the styles to 3X6, and bumped the bottom rail to 3X12. A friend gave the rule of thumb that bottom rail should be 2" greater, to allow higher joinery in the bottom of the styles. Makes good intuitive structural sense, and it's a proportion we're used to seeing.



Concerns of all that weight above the hinge is well founded.
A cabinetmaker friend suggested a design like the right.
Unfortunately that moves the hinge from going over the middle style.

I'm talking with a custom hinge outfit that makes big roller bearing hinges to see if a custom hinge can carry the weight. One possible option is to put the upper hinge strap arm up at a 45°. Some of the bigger strap hinges also have backing plates.

I also think that panels between rails can serve to provide rigidity. I can dado the timbers to the inside of panels, and start with a plywood base. Of coarse I'd be a fool to glue all four edges of the plywood inside the panel, but I think I could get away with gluing and/or fastening the hinge-side style and upper rail. That would provide immense support.

It's still a work in progress, and I appreciate all of your thoughts so far. Thank you.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Glad to see the frame is really stout and strong already.

I think this project calls for hand forged strap hinges.
Also because the fasteners will be in shear and sufficient sized heads to carry the load won't be a problem to fit within folded leaf hinges.