Big problem using Domino - User incompetence - HELP!!

[jmatz]

This should be a series of simple stile-and-rail joints for a set of french doors, but I've got a total brain-cramp on how to do this.  I thought I had it right, went ahead and cut most of the mortices, but now I've potentially got $350 of scrap lumber, a bunch of crappy, amateur joints and a huge headache (and 4 hours lost !!!!!).

Cherry stock is all milled perfectly square.

What the hell am I doing wrong???      I know it isn't the tool.

photos:

1 - diagram of what I'm trying to do (two 8x50 dominos per joint).  No big deal, right?

2 - photo of pencil mark-ups - shouldn't need these - shouldn't this all be indexed?

3 - cutting mortices in rails - ok here, using trim stop to center on stock, and fence height for distance from edge of stock to mortice.

4 - but when cutting the matching mortices in the stile, I have no way to precicsely index the cut from the end of the stock to the mortice that is furthest away from the end, because the fence woudn't go that high.  So I tried to use a pencil line in the rubber pad that is the center line of the bit and line it up to the layout mark on the wood.  NO WAY could this possibly be the right way to do this.  It came out really crappy with alignment of the joint skewed (angled) by 1/16" and misaligned at the end by more.

5 - detail of pencil mark on rubber pad.  If I try to flip the tool around and set the trim stop / fence to sit on the end of the stock, I might get good alignment for the first mortice, but the second one that is further away from the end can't be done that way because the fence won't go that high.  Some of the mortices are at a slight angle, even though I took great care to position the tool carefully and hold it securely, and made sure that the trim stop was set to hold the stock firmly and the stock was clamped to the MFT.

At this point, I'll have to fill all the mortices with dominos and cut them flush and start all over again - huge pain in the butt.

Is there a tutorial on this type of joint somewhere?

Thanks in advance for any help.

John M

 

[rjfarel]

I think the face of the dominos should be parallel to the face of your rails and stiles.

 

[jmatz]

I think the face of the dominos should be parallel to the face of your rails and stiles.

I was wondering about that... it would certainly be more similar to how I've used the domino for simple edge-joining.  I seem to have chosen the most difficult way to do this.

Thanks RJ - I might try that if no one points me in another direction with this problem.

I just hope they don't take my Domino away from me !

JM

 

[Brent b]

John, it's taken me a bit of trial and error to get the swing of the Domino, but have faith, it really is a wonderful tool once you get the feel of it.  Any time that you think your wasting on this is actually classtime in learning a new technology.  I'm using it almost every day now, even if it's just to line up something that I'll end up screwing together.  One thing I've found important when contemplating a joint I haven't tried is to use scrap wood to test the application.  What referral said, which I take to mean turning the domino's 90 degrees is how I would execute that joint.
Brent

 

[jmatz]

John, it's taken me a bit of trial and error to get the swing of the Domino, but have faith, it really is a wonderful tool once you get the feel of it.  Any time that you think your wasting on this is actually classtime in learning a new technology.  I'm using it almost every day now, even if it's just to line up something that I'll end up screwing together.  One thing I've found important when contemplating a joint I haven't tried is to use scrap wood to test the application.  What referral said, which I take to mean turning the domino's 90 degrees is how I would execute that joint.
Brent

Thanks Brent - any reason for me to fill the bad mortices, or can I just cut new ones as long as there is plenty of contact area left between the parts?

 

[Brent b]

John, If it were me I wouldn't unless it caused problems with the newly morticed domino's fit, or was going to cause problems with the indexing of the pins.  I don't think there are any structural issues with having voids in the rail and stile.  When I was starting out as a carpenter an old timer pulled me aside when he saw me whining about all the mistakes I was making and told me you never stop making mistakes so get used to it, what changes is how quickly you can get out of them.  I thought this was sage and let it guide me when trying to get past a flub.

 

[jmatz]

John, If it were me I wouldn't unless it caused problems with the newly morticed domino's fit, or was going to cause problems with the indexing of the pins.  I don't think there are any structural issues with having voids in the rail and stile.  When I was starting out as a carpenter an old timer pulled me aside when he saw me whining about all the mistakes I was making and told me you never stop making mistakes so get used to it, what changes is how quickly you can get out of them.  I thought this was sage and let it guide me when trying to get past a flub.

Thanks Brent.  You have now taken the place of the old timer.  I'll take that advice and proceed with more mistakes but not stress-out about it. 

JM

 

[Michael Kellough]

John, ou really are trying to do this the hard way. On the green piece, you're trying to register the tool by eye in 2 axis. Only Superman with his X-ray vision could get that right.

If the stock is a thick as it looks you should be using 4 dominoes in that joint and they should be parallel to the face of the stock so the fence takes care of one axis of registration.

 

[jmatz]

John, ou really are trying to do this the hard way. On the green piece, you're trying to register the tool by eye in 2 axis. Only Superman with his X-ray vision could get that right.

If the stock is a thick as it looks you should be using 4 dominoes in that joint and they should be parallel to the face of the stock so the fence takes care of one axis of registration.

Thanks Michael.  That was very simply put and gets to the essence of the problem.  I'll probably reduce the size of the dominoes and use 4 instead of 2.  And I will only make one of the mortices the exact width - the rest will be a bit wider so they don't rely on exact side-to-side registration.

JM

 

[Tinker]

John, If it were me I wouldn't unless it caused problems with the newly morticed domino's fit, or was going to cause problems with the indexing of the pins.  I don't think there are any structural issues with having voids in the rail and stile.  When I was starting out as a carpenter an old timer pulled me aside when he saw me whining about all the mistakes I was making and told me you never stop making mistakes so get used to it, what changes is how quickly you can get out of them.  I thought this was sage and let it guide me when trying to get past a flub.

I worked with a sage old carpenter years ago who said much the sme thing.  His saying (among many) was "A good mechanic is one who can talk his way out of any mistake he makes."

Tinker

I nevr mak mistooks

 

[Gary Nichols]

What a coincidence, the first three years of my apprenticeship was with a sage old journeyman plumber (my dad) who told me "It ain't a mistake unless someone else catches it before you have and already started to fix it first. Until then, it's not a mistake, but a.... "change-of-mind"..."

Gary

"You can learn a lot from other people's mistakes.... and I've been a hell of a teacher all my life"..... (me)

 

[jmatz]

OK... fixed my mistakes, I mean, I tried this a different way and everything worked out.  I now have two very nice solid, square door frames completed.  Just have to set the glass and hinges and put those suckers up !!!

Thanks everyone for the Domino advice.

JM

 

[Dave Rudy]

OK... fixed my mistakes, I mean, I tried this a different way and everything worked out. 

How about "using exceptional ingenuity with a little help from my friends, I developed a methodology that turned really good work into exceptional work"? .  Since the name of the game is hiding the "design changes", you couldn't have picked a better place to make the design changes than in the mortises that noone except you (and us) will ever see.