Biscuit vs Pocket Screw vs Domino...

JSands said:
Wow, is that new?  did not recall it....

btw, it says 4x20mm, is the 20mm the width or length?   can't find the other dimension.

Yep, this thin domino now is stealing what little thunder the ol biscuits had remaining  :-)

I fear buying one now...   :-)

It's been out for maybe a year.  You'll need the 4mm bit too.  The 20mm is the domino length, although mine are actually measuring 18.5mm long and 17mm in width.
 
I wanted to start making mitered cabinet doors, so I have a biscuit jointer that I havent really used, Im sure a domino would do the trick but to spend 850 buck for a tool when I own one that will work didnt make sense so I performed this test Saturday.

>>Test: Strength of a miter joint using biscuits.
Experiment: In order to verify whether biscuit joinery can successfully be used to make mitered kitchen cabinet doors.
SCOPE: I only had on hand F/F , #0 and # 10 biscuits. I used mitered 3/4 x 2 1/4 oak and 3/4 x 2” maple for material to be mitered. Titebond II was used as the adhesive and collins clamps were used as the clamping devices.
Tooling used:
KApex 120
MFT 3
PC 557 Biscuit Jointer
Clamp Essentials
Colins Clamps
Small Plastic Hammer
Please note: The limited clamping pressure of the Collins clamps for this application is taken into account.

1) The 3/4 x 2 1/4 Oak was selected as the first species of material to be mitered. I used my Kapex 120 to cut 2 ea 45 degree miters in the sampled. First experiment was testing the miter using a #0 sized biscuit. The slot was cut and The Titebond was applied to the jointed surfaces, slots in the materials and the biscuit.The collins clamps were then attached.
The glue was allowed to dry for 4 hours.
The collins clamps were removed and the miter joint was then struck repeatedly with the plastic hammer.
The joint easily separated after a few blows.

2)The 3/4 x 2 1/4 Oak was selected as the first species of material to be mitered. I used my Kapex 120 to cut 2 ea 45 degree miters in the sampled. First experiment was testing the miter using 2 #0 sized biscuits. The slot was cut and The Titebond was applied to the jointed surfaces, slots in the materials and the biscuit.The collins clamps were then attached.
The glue was allowed to dry for 4 hours.
The collins clamps were removed and the miter joint was then struck repeatedly with the plastic hammer.
Note the joint due to the limited clamping pressure of the collins clamps could not completely close.
The joint easily separated after a few blows.

3) 3/4x2” Maple was selected as the first species of material to be mitered. I used my Kapex 120 to cut 2 ea 45 degree miters in the sampled. The third experiment was testing the miter using a #0 sized biscuit. The slot was cut and The Titebond was applied to the jointed surfaces, slots in the materials and the biscuit.The collins clamps were then attached.
The glue was allowed to dry for 4 hours.
The collins clamps were removed and the miter joint was then struck repeatedly with the plastic hammer.
Surprisingly the single #10 biscuit held the joint together tightly

4) 3/4x2” Maple was selected as the first species of material to be mitered. I used my Kapex 120 to cut 2 ea 45 degree miters in the sampled. The third experiment was testing the miter using 2 ea #10 sized biscuit. The slot was cut and The Titebond was applied to the jointed surfaces, slots in the materials and the biscuit.The collins clamps were then attached.
The glue was allowed to dry for 4 hours.
The collins clamps were removed and the miter joint was then struck repeatedly with the plastic hammer.
Surprisingly the 2 ea #10 biscuit did not hold held the joint together as tightly as the single #10 biscuit.

Conclusion:

When applied with proper clamping pressure it appears that a appropriate sized biscuit can securly and tightly hold a miter joint together for a kitchen cabinet door.However over the course of the long term the tester feels that the strength of the biscuit is unconclusive.>I feel my test was inherently flawed. Because I didnt use the proper clamping pressure. But I noted that in my report.
I also feel that half a miter joint hanging unsupported and being stuck with hard blows but a hammer puts different stresses on the joint that normal wear and tear of a cabinet door being slammed repeatedly flat onto a f/f or cab edge (eurostyle)
would produce. I feel I put much more stress on the joint. I noticed the single #10 biscuit didnt fail. I think it was because it did have the proper amount of clamping pressure. However it would be stronger and the same with the double #10 biscuit joint if I had used the proper clamping pressure.

I also feel if I would of used a different type of glue such as gorilla glue which is water activated would of increased the strength of the joint by virtue of the water swelling the biscuit more and quicker then Titebond does.

I do feel that the the biscuits would work over the long term but I cant make that conclusion based on my experiment.
 
I started with biscuits.  Somehow, they never really worked for me.   Everything was always fractionally misaligned, not perfect.   I'm a hobbyist, so it could be down to practice, but I aways found myself breaking out the sander.  

I got a domino, and I'm not more careful and precise with it (occasionally I'm downright sloppy), but the joints are better.  I have no idea why.   The range of uses is immense, I've used it to knock together ply boxes that are too thin for biscuits, making frames....heck, last weekend I was using it 20 feet up an oak tree while I was making a tree house - it made the floor frames a snap to get together.  

I still have the biscuit jointer, and I use it for the natty hinges that Lamello make, and for edge jointing thin ply.
 
One advantage of pocket screws when used without glue is that the joints can be disassembled, so if you are working on something temporary, or something you will later take apart for storage...

You could probably still cut either biscuit or domino slots and glue into one side only to help with alignment in that situation?
 
HI...please forgive me for bringing up an old topic but I have an additional question on this topic.  I'm a hobby woodworker with simple skills.  I've been using Pocket screws with success.  But I have hit my last straw after having the screws in the way when I needed to drill a hole into the screw (yeah yeah..poor planning).  The pockets are indeed ugly.  I'm having lots of trouble aligning the pieces before attaching.  I've tried many clamps and techniques.  The domino method seems to assist because the tenon will help me hold stuff and avoid attempting to grow another hand/arm.

Could I ask whether the dominos are faster or slower than using pocket screws?  I built my pocket screw station with foot pedal and I felt that it sped up the process without having to invest in a Foreman (which I don't like anyway).  With experience, will a Domino be a similar speed - speed of creating the mortises and assembly vs drilling pocket holes and assembly?

PS...I should have mentioned that I make very simple projects - a box with a shelf or two, I want to make small crates to hold my yarn, little wood trays to hold my tools.  Nothing fancy, not "heirloom", or "craftsman".  Simple utilitarian things in custom sizes that you can't buy at the store.
 
TealaG said:
With experience, will a Domino be a similar speed - speed of creating the mortises and assembly vs drilling pocket holes and assembly?

Maybe, but I doubt it. You can get very quick with a domino, but this is usually in a production setting. The dominos will hold the carcass together but a good corner clamp can do that for you cheaper.
The Domino is over kill for your stated purposes. Spend the money if you want one, they are great tools but they won't save you any time.
Get a good second hand biscuit joiner and use that. Way faster and easier to assemble and glue up your boxes without having to make dadoes and rabbets and you don't have ugly pocket holes to look at.
Tim
 
I am a hobbyist and do own a Domino, a biscuit joiner, and a Kreg jig.

I never used biscuits much and, when I did, I usually found that it was difficult line up the parts, especially when gluing edge to edge for a wider board.

I used pocket holes quite a bit for drawers and cabinets in my shop. They are easy, strong, but it is also difficult to keep the parts from moving just that a tiny bit. It's annoying and, to me, degrades the quality of my work.

The Domino, however, recently changed my entire way of thinking. I made a nightstand and used nothing but Dominos for the joints which otherwise would have been true mortise and tenon joints. This included some Dominos plunged in the middle of the underside of a bottom shelf that permitted the shelf to appear suspended above the support underneath. These joints were fast, extremely accurate, and very strong; I feel as strong as true mortise and tenon joints. In fact, I would suggest that, for me, the Domino joints may be stronger than my mortise and tenons on other projects because the Dominos fit more tightly than my other joints and, therefore, yield a much stronger glue joint. Plus, when you do the glue up, the result is a perfectly square joint in such projects as drawer boxes.

The Domino would be my choice for almost any project. I generally use a few Dominos even when just gluing up a top or shelf. By referencing the same face on each board, the top is virtually perfect and requires almost no sanding to get rid of the glue line ridge (if any exists). I have the time and, while the Dominos may take slightly longer than a pocket hole, the result is better.
 
I have and use both both but I don't think it's an either/or kinda thing. 

I often use dominos for alignment and then pocket screws for strength.  Sometimes a pocket hole is easier and works.  Sometimes it's a domino and that's it. 

As for speed, I've never found the domino "fast".  I do find the assembly faster after I have used dominos.  The alignment is perfect.  Is speed really that much of a concern for a fellow hobbiest?  Even on my paid work, I don't find that either method slows me down that much.  I don't do much production work though (well none)

 
in the workshop my go to tool for joining/ aligning anything is the domino. I've had it for two years now and it just wipes the floor with a biscuit pointer.

This doesn't mean the BJ is done for though. Just this week I had to 're- align some kitchen worktoops in situ. There was no space to get the domino in there, so I had to use a router and biscuit jointer bit - job done. The order goes domino, biscuit jointer, pocket screws. If one cannot be used for whatever reason, you go down to the next option
 
I sometimes use pocket screws for small wall framing projects and adding blocking in walls very neatly and securely. Couldn't use the Domino for those things.
And I have used the Domino in combination with pocket screws for strength. Awesome !

I may have weird taste but I sometimes like to use pocket screws and plug the holes with a contrasting plug as a design element. I built a box for a guitar amplifier head out of MDO and used walnut plugs. I guess that is not unlike using a Domino as a through tenon.

Haven't touched the biscuit joiner since I got the domino.
 
smittyc said:
And I have used the Domino in combination with pocket screws for strength. Awesome !

This is a great combination for box type assemblies that can have PH screws in places that won't show. And eliminates the need for clamping if also gluing.

[member=59699]TealaG[/member]  The domino with no screws will work well for assemblies that would other wise have the screws showing. It will take care of the alignment shift that happens with PH screws (sometimes even if the pieces are clamped).

If doing a domino with glue and clamp assembly, the domino wins over biscuits because dominos will keep the pieces connected while putting the clamps on. They are tight enough to hold two or more parts together and pick up, flip, move the whole assembly to position clamps. This attribute of domino assembly is often over looked.

Seth
 
Guys...thanks so much.  I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who gets the slight "jog" when using pocket screws and hates it!  I like the idea of using the dominos, maybe with a pocket hole or two for strength.

I've been studying mortise jigs so that I can at least test the method and see if I really need to buy the domino itself.  It's hard to justify as a hobby person, but I want to try the method and see whether it would solve the issues I have. 
 
Just one quick comment . . . Others may disagree, but you don't need the pocket holes for strength. The Domino joint is a loose tenon joint which is strong in and of itself. I understand using pocket hole joints to hold things in place while the glue dries, but I personally use clamps. Since I am a hobbyist (you too) the clamping time isn't significant to me. I just usually glue, clamp, and move on to something else for awhile. Because the Dominos are a tight fit, the glue bond is very strong and the Dominos themselves are also strong.
 
Domino or pocket screw or both, depending upon the task needed.

I loved the biscuit and used it alot, however once I used the Domino, the biscuit cutter was sold and I've never looked back.
 
The addition of pocket screws in a joint that you want the ability to disassemble is a great combination with Dominos.  Years ago, I worked for a furniture store that imported knock-down European furniture.  Most was assembled with dowels and cam bolts and could be disassembled easily to move.  The cam bolts were easier to hide inside casework, but there are various plugs available for pocket screws that can accomplish the same end.  The pocket plugs might be a little more difficult to remove, but they probably look better than the plastic caps included with the cam bolts.
 
GhostFist said:


Mine arrived a day or 3 before we flew out.

I am thinking of just getting all the wood cut and edged at the shop that does that, and then getting stuck with the Zeta and some 32-mm holes for shelving.
 
I used the zeta for a 17' bar I just built and a pant load of tenso connectors. worked like a dream and no holes to fill!
 
I'll probably be drummed out of the forum, but it seems like madness to me to buy a domino for your needs. It's simply too expensive a tool. I would suggest a doweling jig (like the Jessem) at 1/10 or 1/20 the cost (depending on where you live) would suit you as well.

TealaG said:
HI...please forgive me for bringing up an old topic but I have an additional question on this topic.  I'm a hobby woodworker with simple skills.  I've been using Pocket screws with success.  But I have hit my last straw after having the screws in the way when I needed to drill a hole into the screw (yeah yeah..poor planning).  The pockets are indeed ugly.  I'm having lots of trouble aligning the pieces before attaching.  I've tried many clamps and techniques.  The domino method seems to assist because the tenon will help me hold stuff and avoid attempting to grow another hand/arm.

Could I ask whether the dominos are faster or slower than using pocket screws?  I built my pocket screw station with foot pedal and I felt that it sped up the process without having to invest in a Foreman (which I don't like anyway).  With experience, will a Domino be a similar speed - speed of creating the mortises and assembly vs drilling pocket holes and assembly?

PS...I should have mentioned that I make very simple projects - a box with a shelf or two, I want to make small crates to hold my yarn, little wood trays to hold my tools.  Nothing fancy, not "heirloom", or "craftsman".  Simple utilitarian things in custom sizes that you can't buy at the store.
 
Another application for Dominos is to use them as a cross-dowel to screw into end grain or MDF.  The wider Domino is stronger than a traditional dowel and is easier to "hit" with a screw.  Depending on where it will show, I cut the mortises either about 7/8s of the way through or all the way through at least the thickness of the material from the end before inserting the Domino and cutting it flush.  The cross-dominos make a virtually indestructible screw hold.
 
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