Bowed festool 1.4M guide rails

[HughWP]

Has anyone else encountered a bow in their guide rails, causing curved cuts from track saw? I have recently discovered this issue which I can only account for as a manufacturing defect. A couple of years elapsed between purchase and use so now festool are refusing to replace as it is out of warranty period, even though the defect is clearly due to a manufacturing issue rather than use/misuse. Poor customer service and quality from a top of the range manufacturer trade of a reputation that hasn't been met in my case at least!

 

[Packard]

Festool’s tracks are aluminum extrusions.  They are asymmetrical in design.

If you run asymmetrical extrusions too fast, they have not fully solidified the aluminum before exiting the extrusion die.

The result of this too-fast-extrusion-rate is often bowed pieces.

The usual reason for this too-fast-extrusion-rate is a purchasing department that is squeezing all the profit out of the extruder’s equipment.  To offset that squeeze, they either use aluminum from brokers who cannot guarantee the material specs, or they run the machinery as fast as they are able.  Sometimes that is too fast, and the arc appears in the extruded parts. 

Management puts pressure on the purchasing department for lower prices.  The purchasing department puts pressure on the vendors.  The vendors put pressure on the production managers.  The net results are what you are seeing now.

They will get complaints which will go down the hierarchy until the production manager slows the extruders. 

But in the absence of “quality-over-expense” mind-set, this will be a recurring event.

Very often it requires that CEOs be replaced before problems disappear.

 

[peter halle]

The usual reason for this too-fast-extrusion-rate is a purchasing department that is squeezing all the profit out of the extruder’s equipment.  To offset that squeeze, they either use aluminum from brokers who cannot guarantee the material specs, or they run the machinery as fast as they are able.  Sometimes that is too fast, and the arc appears in the extruded parts. 

Management puts pressure on the purchasing department for lower prices.  The purchasing department puts pressure on the vendors.  The vendors put pressure on the production managers.  The net results are what you are seeing now.

They will get complaints which will go down the hierarchy until the production manager slows the extruders. 

But in the absence of “quality-over-expense” mind-set, this will be a recurring event.

Very often it requires that CEOs be replaced before problems disappear.

A heck of a lot of assumptions being made in this situation where there isn't any direct knowledge.

Now on to the original post, yes, from time to time members have written here about non straight rails.  Also about rails that were at one straight but then became less straight.  Often time non-straight rails will become two shorter rails with the offending area removed.

Peter

 

[Packard]

I’ve seen that problem crop up in manufacturing in the past.  It will happen with aluminum extrusions and resin extrusions. 

Speeding up the cycle rate on injection molded parts will result in similar issues including excessive shrinkage. 

In all the cases I have seen the problem was precipitated by an effort to reduce costs. 

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Given that the guide rail tracks are an extruded product, it's a bit of a game of darts whether they'll be "dead" straight or not. It's entirely normal for guide rail tracks (from a variety of manufacturers) to have very slight variations, usually most noticeable in the guide rib when connecting tracks.

I've run across a handful of Festool guide rails which weren't sufficiently straight for my needs, my solution was to cut them down into shorter lengths for specialty tasks where the bow was either irrelevant, or simply eliminated.

As a rule, I just assume that aluminum extrusions are not perfectly straight. That's why the aluminum extrusion on most sliding table saws has certain areas that are milled as reference surfaces to be dead-straight, the rest of the extrusion is not to be considered a reference surface.

I'm no Festool apologist (I refuse to buy their new tools with Imperial scales), but I don't see how you can fault them for abiding by their well-documented three year warranty service time frame.

 

[mino]

Let's get some facts into this Fear Uncertainty, Doubt game going on here:

1) Festool rails are as straight as it gets, pretty much the best on the market from all I am aware.
This is FULLY warrantied and should one get a non-straight or bent rail, it will be replaced as a defect product. No Ifs, No Buts.
[member=74278]Packard[/member]

2) Tracksaw rails are precision instruments. Let me repeat: Precision instruments.
Unless they are treated as such (this includes no sudden temperature changes, not rough handling, etc. etc.) they WILL lose their precision over time. That is not a "fail" "defect" or anything of the sort. It is the property of metals which are amorphous materials.*) It is why any metrology kit is mandatory to calibrate regularly.
[member=82826]HughWP[/member]

---
With all due respect folks, a new user posts a semi-rant. Himself admits it is not really substantiated - after a few years, who remembers what (ab)use a rail was subjected to. And we jump on the talking point like flies onto ...

As for the "no support". Per above, after a few years there is exactly zero way to know what happened to the rail for Festool. No one will warranty the accuracy of a precision piece once it is out in the field. Good luck buying a Starret $500 precision square and going back to them, 5 years later, complaining "it is not up to the spec".

The only real lesson - not knowing more - is:
Take good care of your rails and check them for straightness once in a while.

_______________________________________________________
*)Like any metal piece, there are internal stresses present which may be "released" by rough/wrong handling and/or fast temperature changes. Such stresses cannot be avoided at manufacturing at the low(-ish) costs these rails sell. Sure, with full tempering and milling, some stabilisation can be achieved. But no one will pay $1000 for a 1400 rail to get that.

 

[HughWP]

Thanks for replies, interesting to learn about potential shortcomings of aluminium extrusions.

To clarify my original post. I bought the rails and then they were safely stored for two years without use, due to working somewhere where I didn't need my own kit. So they don't have years of wear on them.

Festool aren't offering me a three year warranty, only two years and they were bought just over two years ago.

Not sure what relevance being a new users has to my post but sense some hostility there and a bunch of assumptions about how I have used the equipment. I believe as a consumer who has committed to using festool products, which comes at a premium I have a right to complain when the quality falls below reasonable expectations.

 

[luvmytoolz]

[member=82826]HughWP[/member] Have you checked the tracks themselves to see if they're out of straight, or did the timber itself curve after cutting due to internal pressures in the timber being released?

 

[mino]

Not sure what relevance being a new users has to my post but sense some hostility there and a bunch of assumptions about how I have used the equipment. I believe as a consumer who has committed to using festool products, which comes at a premium I have a right to complain when the quality falls below reasonable expectations.

Sorry if it was seen as hostility. None was meant ref. your OP.

New user here means no one knows anything about you here. This includes only a guess what "a couple years old rails" means.

Either case, I reacted mainly to the "yeah, extrusions tend to not be straight" notions which are mostly conjecture and only tend scare folks not too familiar with the matter.

Then I was referring to that the returns policy cannot assume anything - i.e. a 2 yrs old rail is a 2 years old rail. And, frankly, improper storage is as likely (more actually) of an issue and it would not be covered by warranty. E.g. storing a rail on its edge for a prolonged period is a sure way to damage/bend it. Even in original packaging. Also a damaged/bent rail received due to improper shipping is *very* common too and impossible to notice without using/checking it. The packaging cam be completely intact while the rail can be bent from the whole package hitting the ground, not damaging the cardboard. Can think of it as a glass jar in a box ..

I did infer you are not too familiar with precision items to appreciate how sensitive these things can be to proper storage and handling. Rails are like high precision engineer's straight edges. A highly sensitive thing if accuracy is to be preserved.

For context, there are two ways to safely store a rail (or a precision straight edge):
a) flat, same way it is placed on the stock
b) vertically on its end

Thanks for replies, interesting to learn about potential shortcomings of aluminium extrusions.

And here you see the problem I reacted to - those "shortcomings of aluminium extrusions" mentioned are valid as a general rule, but are mostly irrelevant to the issue at hand. It addresses potential improper manufacturing which would be a "Festool problem". In practice we know the FS/2 rails, when not damaged, have bends which are about half as big compared to the competition. Yes, I have checked this myself on a 10+ rails sample.

Should a non-straight rail come out, it would have been thrown out by Festool. BTW, that is why US-local manufacturing of rails was abandoned lately. They could not get the quality they get from a supplier in Germany, had too many rejects making it non-economical. True, there can be a QC miss, but that is pretty rare and you would have /presumably/ caught this when you got the rails ..

To clarify my original post. I bought the rails and then they were safely stored for two years without use, due to working somewhere where I didn't need my own kit. So they don't have years of wear on them.

Festool aren't offering me a three year warranty, only two years and they were bought just over two years ago.

About warranty, the rails are not a "tool" so there is only a "basic" manufacturing defects warranty for them (in EU 2 years, I think 1 year in US).

But even if the rails were 6 months old, them being bent would not really be covered - as mentioned above, it is pretty easy to damage a rail by improper storage even in original packaging. This makes any "warranty" claim relating to straightness a can of worms. I personally do not know *any* maker of precision items that would accept such a warranty claim after several months. And I am talking of items that go $1000 for a straight edge, not low cost stuff.

-----
As for the practical terms, you mention to have two rails, are they bent both the same way possibly? If so, that would clearly point to a storage issue.

Either way it would be best if you can take them to either a Festool dealer or some place where there is a reference straight edge available - to check/mark which parts of the rail are affected and which are good.

And last point - I am presuming you are aware so just to be sure:
Be careful with cutting when placing the rail. Especially with the longer rails the anti-skid strips Festool uses are very strong. If you have a longer rail (2000 mm is enough for this) that is placed on the stock and when putting the rail on the mark raise/move only one side of the rail - without slightly lifting the middle - you can actually bend the rail laterally enough to get a 0.02" off in the middle. The anti-slip strips are just so strong they can allow you to bend the rail laterally even just placed on the stock. The rail is not damaged, it just acts like a spring, but the cut is ruined. To avoid this a longer rail or rail assembly must be lifted slightly and then placed on the mark, not pushed sideways just from one side like one would do with shorter cuts.

 

[rst]

My first 55 came with a rail that was 3mm out front on the middle to end.  Uncle Bob gave me F tools #, they sent me a new rail and told me to keep th defective one.

 

[SoonerFan]

My first 55 came with a rail that was 3mm out front on the middle to end.  Uncle Bob gave me F tools #, they sent me a new rail and told me to keep th defective one.

Uncle Bob is a name I have not heard mentioned around here for quite sometime. He was certainly a great dealer. If I remember right he sold out to Beaver Industrial Supply.

 

[rst]

I bought quite a few of my first “addictions” from Uncle Bob.

 

[ElectricFeet]

Has anyone else encountered a bow in their guide rails, causing curved cuts from track saw? I have recently discovered this issue which I can only account for as a manufacturing defect.

Before concluding that, do a search on “curved cuts from track saw” in the search above. There are several threads discussing this.

The first step to confirm the straightness of the track is to clamp it to the material, make a cut and then check it.

 

[kevinculle]

If I wanted to check the straightness of a rail, I would use a straightedge...a quality 6' level would be quite adequate to the task.

 

[ElectricFeet]

If I wanted to check the straightness of a rail, I would use a straightedge...a quality 6' level would be quite adequate to the task.

Unfortunately, that’s not going to work. From what I recall from Sedge’s videos (someone correct me if I’m wrong), Festool guarantees the straightness of the track, not the edges.

Placing a straightedge gently up against a cut splinter guard would work. However, you need a straight edge that is shorter than the rail, because the splinter guard will not be true to the track as you get towards the very end (where the saw will stray as it is no longer fully on the rail).

 

[woodferret]

Check against the raised rib.  That's what the saw registers against.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

It's important to note that the straightness of the cut is informed by a variety of factors, including:
-- Straightness of guide rail track (the rib is the important part here)
-- Length of cut (longer tracks are more likely to bend)
-- Blade selection (correct tooth count and geometry for the application?)
-- Diameter of blade (larger diameter blades are more likely to deflect laterally)
-- Feed rate (too fast and the blade will deflect)
-- Material being cut (Thin? Thick? Stable panel material or solid wood? Etc....)
-- Is the track clamped? (some applications benefit from clamping the track)
-- Is it a bevel cut? (these can be tricky)
-- Skill level of the operator (there's more to running a plunge cutting saw than just pushing it down the track)

Any of the above variables (and probably some others I'm not thinking of) can influence whether a cut is straight.

I have guide rail tracks which I know to be straight, which I can manipulate to produce a curved cut without too much trouble.

Sometimes it's the track, sometimes it's the setup, sometimes it's the user.

[member=82826]HughWP[/member] , That must be very frustrating to not be getting straight cuts. You've stated that your track is not straight:
-- Can you please elaborate on how you are coming to this determination?
-- Are you seeing the deviation in the track, or in the cut?
-- Can you quantify the deviation?

We've seen forum threads in the past where posters are losing their minds because their cuts are bowed by 0.1mm over 3m.... What is the acceptable degree of deviation? I have no idea, and I suspect that Festool (and all of the other brands) have an acceptable degree of deviation which is greater than zero.

Given that Festool will not warranty the track, I gently suggest you cut it down for other specialty work, purchase a new track, and check it for straight immediately. If you're upset with Festool, there are plenty of other brands which produce compatible tracks.

 

[TSO_Products]

Has anyone else encountered a bow in their guide rails, causing curved cuts from track saw? I have recently discovered this issue which I can only account for as a manufacturing defect. A couple of years elapsed between purchase and use so now festool are refusing to replace as it is out of warranty period, even though the defect is clearly due to a manufacturing issue rather than use/misuse. Poor customer service and quality from a top of the range manufacturer trade of a reputation that hasn't been met in my case at least!

HughWP - would you like some help from an experienced but unbiased source to "get back on track"?
email me your complete contact information and I will call you.

Hans@tsoproducts.com

PS: note - TSO is not a tracksaw dealer of any brand