Building a workbench for permanent outside use - impossible mission?

[RC]

As many already know, I don't have the luxury of a workshop so I've been toying with ideas of how to approach my want to have some vices available for hand tool use in the back yard.

One option that I have given a hard look at is the Milkman's Workbench with more modern Benchcrafted or Veritas vices substituted in it. I would mount this to my MFT/3 table if I end up building this and it could probably fit into our garden shed (unheated, but has four walls & a roof) for storage between uses. Not sure if even this would work around the year due to wood movement.

Another option I've considered would to build a proper Split-top Roubo work bench with guidance from the Woodwhisperer guild build to permanently stand on our backyard's deck under the balcony. I have a roof on the first third of the deck (3m deep) where I would have to put a big bench like this so direct rain is not going to hit it normally unless its raining sideways, but would be totally exposed to direct sunlight, wind, snow, freezing temperatures & extreme dryness in the winter, high humidity spring/fall and heat & medium humidity during summers.

Now question I'm asking is is it possible to build something like this with moving parts like the vices in wood to stand outside around the year and still actually work with the natural movement of wood involved? Also would any species of wood realistically last out there without rotting or disintegrating from the weather? (Reasonably priced wood at that considering the quantities involved in a massive workbench)

 

[w802h]

Reiska,

This sounds like a tough path.  How would you prepare your stock for this project?  With hand tools?  I don't think a solid top would stay flat left in the elements. 

A massive bench - one that can absorb the forces applied by hand tools - is different than what a lightweight, portable set-up can offer.  In your shoes, I would probably opt for a rugged base with the ability to change various tops that would be stored inside.  For the base, instead of premium materials, I would probably make something out of 2x4s that had a limited lifespan, but was heavy and wouldn't shift. 

For the top I could picture a variety of scenarios.  Sections of laminated wood that were dominoed (but not glued) that could be moved unassembled and re-assembled for storage.  Or a portable, solid, reduced footprint top with MFtC-style extensions for assembly tasks.  The combination would be what ever best served your needs. 

As a carpenter that works mostly in the field (as opposed to the shop), I've often have to improvise work stations.  Your situation gives me a greater appreciation of my small shop space at the same time.  Instead of focusing on my own shop's inadequacies, I'm grateful for that perspective. 

 

[sgryd]

I built a heavy-duty work bench that stand outside all year around in rain/snow/etc. I don't use it for wood working, but for heavier stuff like welding. But a flat surface is as much needed for welding as for glue-ups.

The bench has a welded frame (25x25mm square tubes) which I sent for galvanizing. The work top is made out of the kind of ply that are used on trailers. I'll see if I can dig up some photos from the build if you are interested.

//Michael

 

[sgryd]

I found a render of the bench for now. I think I should have some real project photos somewhere.

[attachthumb=#]

 

[RC]

Thanks Michael & w802h,

Your work table looks good for the type of stuff you are doing on it, but I guess welding doesn't really require much work holding or is served by the metal working-kind of vices made of full metal vs. carpentry vices with wooden jaws.

My primary questions are:

- Is it possible to build wooden vices that operate even when stored outside? i.e. so that they work even though wood expansion and contraction requires a 'sloppy' installation at least half a year (during dry season)
- What kind of non-pressure treated wood could last outside or would I be stuck using pressure treated lumber for an outdoor workbench?

I know that marine ply (the trailer stuff) can take a beating year round without a missed beat, but it's not really good on a workbench where you would want a level non-slippery and non-marring surface against your work piece. As far that I can tell the outdoor ply comes in two varieties of which one has a coarse texture on the ply (used in trailers) and the other one is slippery flat surfaced.

My own gut feeling is that I'm grabbing at straws here and the logical answer is 'No its not possible; go with a Milkman-style detachable vice-plate overlay that can be stored inside somewhere or win the lottery and buy a house with shop space' but thought it a good idea to ask around if anyone has tried to do something crazy like this here on FOG  [unsure]

 

[Sparktrician]

Reiska,
    You might want to consider making a full-size Roubo, and add a "dress-up" top to it to make it into a dining room table when you're not making sawdust.  You could conceivably use the Roubo clamping to hold the dress-up top in place until you choose to use it for other purposes.  Look at it as a heavy-duty trestle table. 

 

[bkharman]

I went to a roof top party in NYC a year or so ago and the guy had a billiard table outside. Not covered or anything, my best guess is that it was aluminum and probably cost a fortune. He said that it had been up there for three years in sun and snow and still was flat as can be. 

My dad had a table saw with a granite top table saw which I suppose could be used like an MFT if you want to core out some 20mm holes on 96mm.

Tough situation mate, wish you had better options. Maybe a camper or caravan? 

 

[Kev]

Your place sounds like a proving ground for outdoor furniture [eek]

 

[RC]

You are unfortunately very correct Kev  [crying]

I'm having heck of a time on trying to find out if there are any reasonable materials that could hack our climate with four seasons and temperature swings from +35C to -25C and humidity going from 65% (summer) to >90% (Nov/Dec) every year with usually a rainy fall, snowy winter and dry hot summer. Spring usually is rather pleasant but can vary from hail & snow to sunshine - you never know...

I should build a whole backyard table & chair set as well as more weather resistant storage cupboards/benches onto the balcony (which doesn't have a roof). Currently I have aluminum, glass & plastic up there which seems to hold up fairly well, but is generally speaking uncomfortable and don't really like to looks either as being too plasticy.

What I would like to do is build a terrace roof extension to cover the whole terrace (43m2) and have glass walls & ceiling to make it semi-inside space that could be kept at something like +4C & dry around the year for a reasonable heating cost, but unfortunately the housing complex we live in (a row house) doesn't support the building of one. Same goes for building a roof on top of our balcony & installing glazing on it.  [mad]

 

[Runhard]

Reiska,

You should look at using some composite material  to build your bench:

https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=AwrB8pQcGAJTXwwARJWJzbkF?p=outdoor+composite+work+table&fr=yfp-t-901&ei=utf-8&n=60&x=wrt&y=Search

Also look at out door marine fish cleaning tables for ideas:
https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=AwrB8pFiGQJTp18AaL2JzbkF?p=outdoor%20marine%20fish%20cleaning%20tables&fr=yfp-t-901&ei=utf-8&n=60&x=wrt&fr2=sg-gac&sado=1
https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=AwrB8pkNGgJTnkIA7WCJzbkF?ei=UTF-8&n=60&y=Search&fr=yfp-t-901&p=outdoor+woodworking+benches&fr2=sp-qrw-corr-top&norw=1

You could also build the Benchcrafted Moxon vise to use on the bench and keep it stored inside when your not using it.

[attachimg=#]

Daniel

 

[hrrb]

Hi Reiska

Have you considered using 80/20 or Rexroth aluminum profiles for a frame + legs etc? It should be able to handle the climate changes you describe.

If I were to build an outdoor work bench for woodworking I think I'd use 80/20 profiles for frame + legs and add a top made from Ipe decking boards.

I'd drill some 20 mm holes in the Ipe top so I could use parf dogs and clamping stuff as on an MFT/3.

As fas as I remember you can use clamps in the slots on the 80/20 profiles (please correct me guys if I'm wrong). Otherwise you can add a Moxon vise as Runhard suggests (or a Sjöberg Smart Vise).

When not in use I'd take all accessories inside and pull a water proof "garden furniture cover" over the work bench.

[attachthumb=#]

Kind regards
Henrik

 

[RC]

I actually looked at the Moxon and other Benchcrafted vices as options, but read somewhere... maybe in the installation manual... that the Benchcrafted vices are not stainless i.e. they rust in humid spaces so I kinda dropped them quickly out of the option list. Of course the Moxon vice would be small enough to take inside when not in use as it's meant to.

If I'd be building an aluminum frame table I might as well just build a modified milkman's bench to put on top of my MFT/3 with cross-members - I suppose that would be about as stable as any other pipe-frame.

I've been thinking if I put a Veritas Twin Screw Vice at the end of a Milkman table like laminated slab and a Veritas Quick-Release Front Vice (Link at the other end on the front side instead of the wooden screws in the original plan and make dog holes in the slab and clamp that to my MFT/3 it would probably add enough weight to to the table to not flex or wobble too much? Not that I still have a space inside for a slab that size, but at least it would fit into the garden shed when not in use so it would have a roof and four walls around it. My MFT has survived in the shed for a number of years now with no visible damage to give you an idea how damp the shed might be.   

The cheapest weather proof 2x4 material available is pressure treated deck lumber (mostly pine I think) - I wonder would using that in a laminated top be a totally crazy idea? Since its poisoned enough to last direct contact to the ground for years it will not rot in the air, but how would working on stuff like that be? Would it discolour work pieces since the treatment is always either green or brown in colour or just be toxic to the touch?

 

[w802h]

Reiska,

I would stay away from PT if it's anything like what is available in New England.  The moisture content would be unacceptably high for starters.  Secondly, it has a copper content that is corrosive to aluminum if you are using that as a base material.  If you wanted an inexpensive top, I would use Spruce, but would still bring the material inside stickered before glueing it up so that your heating system can lower the moisture content from 15%.  You'll obviously have some work to do jointing it before you work with it.  If you are concerned with spruce weathering as a base material you could of course paint it. 

 

[sgryd]

How about sibirean larch? It's kind of sticky from start, but it'll dry out. Gets grey pretty soon and stands weather better than most.

You could also consider a foldable lid that sits on the top at an angle and is foldable to the back of the bench when you use the bench. You could put green roofing paper on the lid to get it to blend in with the garden.

 

[Stone Message]

I have a pair of Pitch Pine benches which I bought second hand in 1987. They have been outside every day and night since then. There is just a tiny bit of damage where I suspect there was an existing defect. The legs were not original and I have replaced these once and need to do that again soon.

Whatever wood you choose Reiska I would give it a generous coat of Osmo and repeat the process frequently.

Peter

 

[Kev]

Probably hard for you to get hold of, but Australian Ironbark could be a worthy adversary for your weather [wink]

 

[hrrb]

I actually looked at the Moxon and other Benchcrafted vices as options, but read somewhere... maybe in the installation manual... that the Benchcrafted vices are not stainless i.e. they rust in humid spaces so I kinda dropped them quickly out of the option list. Of course the Moxon vice would be small enough to take inside when not in use as it's meant to.

If I'd be building an aluminum frame table I might as well just build a modified milkman's bench to put on top of my MFT/3 with cross-members - I suppose that would be about as stable as any other pipe-frame.

...I would of course bring the Moxon/Sjöberg vise inside the house when not in use.  [wink]

I don't own an MFT/3 so I can't judge its stability when used as a bench for planing or other kind of tasks using your muscles...if you get what I mean. I've only had hands on in the dealers showroom. And I've only read comments here on this forum about the lack of stability when working "heavy duty". But you MFT/3 owners know better than me  [wink]
I've been project manager on several projects where we've used aluminum profiles for framework etc. If built properly using correct assembly parts it can get VERY stable.

However if you don't need the stability but only need vises for light duty work I'd save my money (aluminum profiles are not cheap here in Denmark) and find a good solution for the MFT/3 that you already own.
Moxon, Sjöberg, Veritas, whatever..I'd always bring it inside when not in use.

I don't know the quality of pressure treated lumber in Finland. But here in Denmark it's absolutely third range wood! Twisting and bending accordingly to seasonal climate changes so definitely not good for an outdoor workbench.  I'd stay away from that. [unsure] If I was to build an outdoor wooden bench I'd choose some tropical hardwood and give it a good coat of oil twice a year, spring and autumn.

Good luck with your project...looking forward to see how it ends!  [smile]

/Henrik

 

[RC]

To my understanding Siberian Larch is about the only readily available and somewhat reasonably priced naturally rot resistant species here. Its usually used for decks and fence posts instead of pressure treated lumber.

I'll have to look into it at my next visit to the local lumberyard what dimensions are available. At least it seems that wholesale you can get anything upto 45 x 145 (2"x6") directly which should be good enough for a top I guess.

 

[Stone Message]

Reiska, I have had one of my nutty ideas...

Could you design a bench which when not in use can be configured as a piece of furniture just inside your apartment near the balcony? Then your only issues are moving it in and out and making sure that it is not in use (inside) when you need it (outside) and vice versa.

Peter

 

[RC]

Not so nutty Peter  [wink]

I actually did do some rough sketches toying with the idea of building the bench in such a manner that with a light tabletop with clamping holders for locking in place in the vices could be used as a outdoor dining table when not in workbench use and act as a rain cover at the same time for the bench...  [huh]

[attachimg=#]

Its just that with a substantial base, the vice handles and probably a bit too high height to start with I don't think it would make a comfortable dining table.

Moving one in and out would be a bit of hurdle since the doors are 900mm wide and there is a step down to the terrace so I'd need someone to help lifting everytime even if there was space for another table in the living room.