Buying Advice

[Dionysus480]

Hi all,

This first post may be premature since I don't yet own Festool, but I have decided to invest in the T55 and I had a few questions.  Searching around on the web, there are certainly lots of opinions, but I decided to ask folks that have real experience with these tools before I start spending money.

For background:  I am a hobbyist and a dad.  I have a day job and don't intend (yeah, I know...) to sell my projects.  Historically I have made small projects (Rocking horses, small chests, etc.) and generally tackled other small one-off (or at least limited number) projects.  However, I have just moved to a new place that will allow me to have a small (single car garage) workshop where I can expand my woodworking and grow my skills.  I have considered purchasing a table saw, but since safety is huge on my list, I looked at the Sawstop line and its just out of my price range. My other issue is that I work alone, and putting sheet goods across a table saw safely (with good results and in my small space) is tough.  I have a bandsaw and jointer, and will probably also purchase a small thickness planer for dimensioning.

My current intention is to get into face frame cabinet making - as there are several closets and rooms in the new house where I could put in nice custom cabinetry (not to mention potentially redoing the kitchen/bath someday).  I'd like to be able to make some furniture (headboards, nightstands, TV stands, etc) as well as small projects (the boys have outgrown the rocking horses, but the girls would love doll cradles) I have several routers, and a table that I can use for cabinet doors, tongue and groove, dados, etc.

So - to begin my Festool adventure, I wanted to ask a few questions:

I'm beginning with (or intend to begin with) the TS55, but I actually want to replace my old radial arm saw and preferably forgo a table saw.  Speed is no factor.  Safety is number 1, and being able to get good results with patience is number 2. (If I can't build it square I'll get frustrated.)

So - my initial list is TS55, 55" rail, 75" rail, connectors, and possibly a MFT/3.  Are there other accessories I really need to look at to start up? When do I choose a TS55 REQ versus a TS55 or TS 75?  Do I need all of these parts?  And - if there are naysayers out there I'll ask... Should these wait until after a table saw?  Is there some major task in cabinetmaking that could not be done with these tools, some brainpower, web surfing, and patience.

Second question, what size dust extractor? How do I even figure this out?

In addition to the dust extractor, I would really like to be able to add a sander, because I just hate breathing the sawdust as I sand, and I'm not always good about the mask...  Can the  ROTEX 125 or 150 serve as a finish sander as well as for wood removal?  Would I also need a DTS 400?  Does this figure into the extractor size?  (The extractor also could be used with my current sanders correct?)

Thanks for any advice or comments.  I realize how utterly naive I am (or maybe I don't.)  I also realize that if I purchase all of the tools above I spent more than the Sawstop... just don't tell the wife...  she still thinks her car goes in the garage...

PS - I have my sons in my shop frequently.  My youngest (7Y) loves to sit out and build small cars or birdhouses while I work.  The Festool system also seems like something that I can put up out of reach when he's around and I'm not cutting.

 

[jimmylittle]

Just my 2 cents-

The TrackSaws are great at breaking down sheet goods. I use mine all the time.  If you're just doing plywood, the 55 is plenty.  If you do thick or solid wood, the 75 is necessary.  I use a 55 daily, and have no problems even cutting through the occasional 2" thick walnut live-edge slab. 

As far as safety goes, I think a table saw can be one of the safest tools in the shop.  With proper use, blade guards, and common sense, there's less chance of injury from a blade that's locked into the center of a metal table than one that you carry around like a circular saw.  That vein said, there are few other tools that can lop off a finger in an instant because of a lapse in concentration or attention. 

How do you do your face frames?  If you buy pre-dimensioned lumber (i.e. 1x3 S4S or 1x4 S4S), and attach them to plywood boxes, a track saw will suit you well.  If you buy board-feet of lumber and need to rip small strips to 2 or 3 inches, a table saw is a much better option.  With scrap stock to level the guide rail and a little patience, you can do a 2" rip out of a 3" board on a track saw, but it's quicker and safer to do it on a table saw.

If you go the TS55 route, I'd skip the 75" rail for now.  You're going to want the 55" rail (for crosscuts) and either a 109" rail or another 55" rail and the splice kit to connect the two 55" rails into a 110" rail for full sheet rips.  I use two 55" rails now, as I can't justify the price of another tool to buy a 109" chunk of aluminum.  I have a standard rail and a 55" "holy rail" that has the drillings for 32mm cabinet building.  I can quickly connect these to make a full sheet rip when needed.

As far as dust extractors go, they all have the same suction, so it's a space/price thing.  I have a CT26, but a Mini or a 46 would work.  I kind of wish I had gone with the larger capacity 46  when I bought.  I rarely take mine out of the shop, and the bags are not cheap.  Bigger bags = less bags.  If space is a premium or if you travel your rig, a smaller vac is a good idea.  The 26 or 36 are good mid range options that can still roll under your work surface.

Can't help you on the sanders, I'm still using my trusty Bosch random orbits.  I'll go Festool when they die, but they're still going strong.

No matter what you choose, it seems like you'll enjoy doing the builds with your son, and that's the most important thing. Good Luck.

 

[Holzhacker]

Very good advice by jimmy so far.
To add to that, if you aren't going to cut a lot of 2x go for the 55. I have a 75 since I do cut a fair amount of 2x and sheet goods. The 75 is a bit bulky for just sheet goods.
My ets125 gets used for all around sanding. The dts doesn't get used much anymore since I got the RO90.
As far as sanding my go to combo are the RO90 and the 150/3. Between the two I can sand out anything that comes along. For what you've said you'll be making I don't know that I would recommend the RO125 or 150, seems like bulky overkill. Don't know that I'd want to try and sand face frames or smaller items with those.
I have two ct22 and a Fein turbo II. The Fein is my shop vac. Mainly because the Fein doesn't rely on or care about bags. Its also very easy to take off the top, put a garbage bag over it, tip it over to empty and done. Also works great for wet stuff. The CT's work just as well but for the shop, buying and changing bags doesn't work well for me. I've tried it and don't like going through that many bags. When I cut in the shop I tend to cut a lot so they fill up. For on the go there's nothing better than a CT with the needed systainers stacked on top. Roll into a job and you are ready to go.
As far as why spend the money on festool, and I know this may sound like a commercial, its because it is a system that works. Yes there are other options out there but from my experience they tend to be individual pieces rather than a designed system that works together in many ways.
An mft and a tracksaw is a great starting point for what you want to do. The tools are designed to be accurate. How accurate depends on your skill level. Sure I could cut accurately with an old PC or Skil running along side a clamped down straight rail. Could I repeat that same cut multiple times with the same accuracy? Not really.
One of the other great things about Festool is organization and time savings. Having tools that serve your needs and are organized cuts down on wasted time. You can get more done on a project rather than farting around looking for stuff or setting up.
I wouldn't worry about buying lots of accessories to start. Get the basics and you'll figure out what else you need as you work.
As far as safety, I hate table saws, always have. I wouldn't want one in a home shop with kids around. It isn't always your kids you just have to worry about, its their curious little friends who come over. Never underestimate the sheer stupidity of a few little boys and power tools. Flipping the switch on a table saw is a no brainer for little boys. Getting a 55 out of the systainer, plugging in the cord on both ends and then cutting their fingers off would be a stretch.

 

[Stone Message]

Hi Dionysus

The first item that I got rid of when I turned to Festool was my big table saw and the extra space has allowed me to set up an area for breaking down sheet goods using my TS55 on folding trestles. I do now have a CMS-TS and so have a small, portable and highly capable table saw but that was not part of my original strategy.

My idea was to use the TS and rails for all sheet goods and wide boards. Anything unsuitable for that scheme would be put through the band saw - cuts in thick stock or cuts from stock too small to be done with the TS. From there solid wood would go to the planer/thicknesser. This is my main approach now.

I use the CMS-TS for accurate work (it is great for rebates) and, with care, leaves a finish that just needs 120 the 180 grit for finish.

I have the CT26 which has the same power as the other extractors in the series. I use a Dust Deputy and drop box to extend the life of each bag to 1 year (I change it despite it being empty as the really fine dust gets through and coats the inside of the bag).

I think that a Rotex sander is a must and for a first purchase the RO90 would be ideal and give you the added bonus of delta capability.

The Domino has changed my whole approach to woodwork and is a joy to use. The DF700 will probably be too big for your needs but is one of the two most beautifully designed and engineered woodworking tools in the world (the other is the Festool OF2200).

You will need a router and the OF1400 is a really good all rounder and has the guts to do just about anything you want.

Festool has revolutionised my work. Everything comes together square first time, joints are strong and accurate and things get done in half the time. You will love using the tools and your pleasure will increase as you do more and use more Festool kit.

Peter

PS

I went back to the workshop and my Kapex got mad at me for not mentioning it - again a super piece of engineering and the dust capture is brilliant. I better not leave out the MFT3 - a perfect platform for sawing and all sorts of work holding and jig work.

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

I have an inquisitive eight year old daughter and feel that my shop tools are safe. Just be sure to pull plugs and have a main power switch in a lock box.  If you go the Festool vac route, then I suggest considering the CT 26 with either a metal Oneida cyclone and homemade ply box or the Laguna D16 with a Thein baffle. (The Fein sounds interesting, just never tried it.) Also, consider a more permanent dust collection system and build a small closet around it.

IMO, the TS75 is too heavy for the flimsy aluminum guide rail system. For your purposes, the TS 55 or REQ will be perfect for breaking down sheets. Can you do this outside? I don't like the mft for this. Two 2x4's on the floor or building a dedicated sys for this is safer. There are plenty of great ideas in FOG for this. ( I use a Mafell MT55 with the Aeofix System and folding saw horses.)

I would build a bench that suits my needs, rather than buy an mft table.  If you want the holes and the sides, then you can buy those parts individually.  A homemade bench would be cheaper and sturdier...unless you think you need something that has to be folded up.  If you do buy the mft/3, then I recommend getting a good square to keep it calibrated - because it needs to be calibrated often. Consider using parf dogs rather than the Festool's flimsy system. (A real disappointment.)

The Festool sanders are all worth every penny. I highly recommend having a short stroke orbital sander for finishing...either the ETS125 or the ETS150/3. I also have an RO90.

The OF 1400 is a great router. I have the CMS GE set.  Works well. If I had the room, I would get a router table with a cast iron top.

My Kapex saves me quite a bit of time.  It's a fine machine. I have a homemade miter table with the Fastcap wings.  I love the Festool and Forrest blades.

I own both the Domino 500 and the 700XL. My favorite, by far, of the two is the 700XL, but I use the 500 more. Some guys use the 700 with the after-market smaller bits to cover the capacity of both machines. I like having two machines.

Hope this helps.

 

[Paul G]

Great comments thus far. To add, I love table saws but in a shop that size it's a space hog. One cut that Festool track saws can have a challenge with relative to a table saw is a bevel cut, the issues being since the saw isn't locked to the rail it can want to flop over sideways, also if the rail doesn't maintain continuous solid contact to the material the cut will not be straight. These issues can certainly be overcome with mindful use, just not as simple as the typical vertical cut. As far as rails go I wanted the no limitations length for cutting 4x8' sheets and that means the ability to go corner to corner diagonal if the need ever arose and neither a 109" nor two 55" will get you there, but a 55+75 will, and make one of those a holed rail for drilling adjustable shelf holes. The rail connectors can be fussy but with care will do just fine especially for your volume of work. If you don't mind the extra weight, the lack of an inch scale and the added cost of the saw and blades just get the TS 75. I had a TS55 and ended up with a TS75 following the recall and I don't much miss the smaller saw.

Face frames need something to hold them together, dowels, pocket screws or dominos are all viable options, I prefer pocket screws for ease (assuming not filling the holes) since no long gluing clamps required. But I like dominos over dowels for when I don't want a pocket screw, dominos are simply much more versatile and can greatly assist in building the cases, banding shelves, etc.

As far as vacs go, since its staying at home get the biggest the budget affords, the point being changing bags less often. I also have a shop vac/dust deputy combo that works great but for sanding the adjustable suction is a really nice addition and the tool activated power will have you spoiled in no time.

For sanding get a RO 90, it's simply too versatile to not have. For larger sanding I use Rigid sanders I have from my pre-Festool days, they sand well and when hooked up to a vac hose they do good dust collection but in no way would I call the hook up process convenient. When they die I'll probably get a RO 125.

 

[Dionysus480]

Thank for the help guys.  

Yes - a new router was on the list, and frankly I was looking at a 3HP Triton to mount in my table for handling the big bits for raised panel doors.  My other routers are craftsman (a bit clumsy but they work), and a tiny old antique Stanley trim router (all steel and looks cool anyway.)

I was also planning on building the workbench design by CR Paulk as a workspace.  He has a crosscut jig system that can be added.  I was considering dropping it to 6 feet just to conserve space.  I may/may not add the router table portion also to consolidate.  

If I were to buy the accessory kit for the rail, would this workbench serve as a huge MFT, or is the MFT still recommended?  

Is the recommended OF1400 able to cut the edge profiles of the raised panels (if I don't need an MFT then a Festool router might be an option.)?

Another bit of interesting information from the posts above (perhaps I misunderstand) - Can the rail for the lr32 system be used as an extension rail for the track saw?  I actually usually use a pegboard template I made to drill those holes slowly.  Works well enough, but there are applications that I've wondered about the track and hole drilling kit.

I was planning on pocket screws for attaching the face frames.  Domino seems like overkill, but it sure is cool.  Are there real advantages in favor of Domino?

Oh - and I generally buy 4/4 S2S although for a fee the supplier will put an edge on it for me.  I thought the TS55 might be good enough to put that edge on, and I was surfing around and found a simple jig for ripping to width (pretty sure its posted here on FOG in several places).  I don't usually get too expensive in the wood.  Walnut and Cherry are about as exotic as I get on cabinets and stuff.  Although smaller projects like desk accessories or doll cradles might involved some imported woods.  I can see me needing to resaw 8/4 for panels, although I was planning on the bandsaw with a fence to handle the task. I haven't ever done that particular procedure.

Thanks again.  I must say I'm also impressed that most of the threads I've read on FOG seem to involve genuinely helpful folks taking the time to give less experienced people really good advice.

And yes - I know how to use a table saw safely, and my son is well behaved and probably would never mess with it (friends are another deal).  My issue is that he is usually in the shop, and my attention could be distracted for that crucial moment that results in injury.  If its a choice between my sons working with me and learning (albeit slower) and a table saw, I'd like to plan the shop without the table saw if possible. (Screwing up a cut because I get distracted using the track saw and wasting a piece of wood is one thing, but cutting a finger off is another. I really like the TS automatic retraction into the housing so I can stop let go and dash if needed without any exposed spinning blades left behind.)

Lastly - yeah - I've been doing enough woodworking to know that the best possible tools set up to cut by an amateur (like me) will never give the same results as a professional tradesman with a hand saw and a measuring tape.  I just don't want to fight the tools I use.  I'm hope as I use the TS system, my skills grow and my cabinets look good. (Heck - thats why I'm starting with Shop, Garage, and Closets before anything guests would see.)

 

[Sparktrician]

Yes - a new router was on the list, and frankly I was looking at a 3HP Triton to mount in my table for handling the big bits for raised panel doors.  My other routers are craftsman (a bit clumsy but they work), and a tiny old antique Stanley trim router (all steel and looks cool anyway.)

If you're using a traditional router table, the Triton would be a decent choice, but I'd prefer to use a Porter-Cable 7518 motor in a good lift like a Woodpeckers PRL-V2 or the like for doing raised panels.

Is the recommended OF1400 able to cut the edge profiles of the raised panels (if I don't need an MFT then a Festool router might be an option.)?

The OF 1400 will handle bits to about 2-3/4" in diameter.  The OF 2200 will handle bits as large as 3-1/2", but isn't a real all-purpose router at 18#, although the form factor is wonderful and very comfortable to use.  I prefer to use the OF 2200 when doing raised panels, but the OF 1400 is a great all-purpose router. 

Another bit of interesting information from the posts above (perhaps I misunderstand) - Can the rail for the lr32 system be used as an extension rail for the track saw?  

The LR 32 rail is perfect for extensions to any other Festool rail.  I personally use two LR 32 1400 rails for just about everything and rarely use the standard rails any more. 

I was planning on pocket screws for attaching the face frames.  Domino seems like overkill, but it sure is cool.  Are there real advantages in favor of Domino?

Pocket screws are wonderful for clamping strength, but the Domino provides better joint alignment and more joint strength over just pocket screws alone.  Don't discount the possibilities of using the Domino. 

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

Yes, the "holy rail" works with the TS. Good choice. If you link up the tracks, check into the Betterly connector.

Perhaps a contractor table saw?... The new DeWalt, the Mafell Erica, the Bosch, the CMS TS...I'm still waiting for the Sawstop portable - that's in development.

Many guys use the Paulk. I don't have room for it.

Pocket-hole systems are good for face frames.  I have used the Kreg jig.  Many pros use them. Some guys use pin nailers to line up the joints and then fasten with auger screws. I like using dominos.  I am faster and more accurate with them.  Some guys use dominos to align and support with pocket-holes. I use dominos for almost every build.

 

[Sparktrician]

I don't think that I would buy the Domino if I only made cabinets.

Hmmm...  That's where I seem to use the Domino the most. 

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

I don't think that I would buy the Domino if I only made cabinets.

Hmmm...  That's where I seem to use the Domino the most.  

Yeah, Willy. I must have been deleting that sentence while you were posting. Since I have the Domino, it's the only thing that I use for cabinets, too...and love it. I have two more cabinet builds, on deck, that I will only use the Domino for.

 

[Sparktrician]

Yes - a new router was on the list, and frankly I was looking at a 3HP Triton to mount in my table for handling the big bits for raised panel doors.  My other routers are craftsman (a bit clumsy but they work), and a tiny old antique Stanley trim router (all steel and looks cool anyway.)

If you're using a traditional router table, the Triton would be a decent choice, but I'd prefer to use a Porter-Cable 7518 motor in a good lift like a Woodpeckers PRL-V2 or the like for doing raised panels.

I was of the same mind until I started adding up the prices. You're looking at an easy $600 from normal retail outlets for that combo vs the $250 and, if you care to, $50 or so for a pre-drilled compatible insert. Half the cost and it seems to be a real winner in the table. Collet locks at full plunge - that's friggin awesome. Lift is built in, just need to remove the spring.

My thinking is that I'd prefer to leave the 7518 permanently in the lift, were that my choice for a router table, using another router for portable applications.  The concept of remembering to insert or remove the spring depending on application bothers me, for some reason.  I don't mind the additional funding, provided I get more bang for the buck and the selection meets my needs better.  That explains my own choice to buy the CMS with its ability to use multiple routers as befits the need.  I don't need to remove any springs when I install the selected router with the CMS.  The ratcheting collet works on the OF 1400 at full extension, too.  The routers that fit the CMS also have the lift built in.  What's not to like here?  (Aside from price, that is.)

 

[Dionysus480]

Thanks all.

Generally I'm hearing:

TS55 will probably suffice.  Consider the TS75 if the size doesn't bother me.
Dust Collector is next importance.  Consider the Dust Deputy to save bags.  Might allow a smaller unit to work for me.
MFT might not be necessary.  (I wonder if I could buy the flip down hardware separately.)
Sander of some sort (ROTEX) is probably next importance.
Interesting - I think Domino might be next on my list.  I dowel everything right now... a task I don't really enjoy.  If domino takes the drudgery out of it, perhaps its worth it.
Then routers.  I guess one thing for me is it makes no sense to mount a Festool in a table and not get to handle it.  Seems like any motor spinning a bit in a router table could get it done, and there are less expensive ones than the Festool line for sure. (yes - I see in the recent replies - I don't intend to swap my table based router in an out... another task I find unrewarding.)

I really appreciate the opinions and input.  When I speak with the salesperson, I feel like I've thought it through a bit and have a better idea of what I'm trying to accomplish.  Certainly additional advice is appreciated. I'll keep checking back.

 

[Sparktrician]

Then routers.  I guess one thing for me is it makes no sense to mount a Festool in a table and not get to handle it.  Seems like any motor spinning a bit in a router table could get it done, and there are less expensive ones than the Festool line for sure. (yes - I see in the recent replies - I don't intend to swap my table based router in an out... another task I find unrewarding.)

It's VERY easy to slip a Festool router into the CMS and remove it when done.  It really isn't a painful or tedious process at all.  Get your chosen dealer to show you how easy it really is before you make your choice.  If the dealer can't/won't demo it, get another dealer.  I seem to recall YouTube videos that show the same thing, too. 

 

[Len Coleman]

From a DIYer, my 2 cents

TS55 should be more than enough, MFT for sure......you will find you use it all the time.  I am debating adding a newer MFT/3 or build one.  Dust extraction,  I started with a mini and got a 36 to go with Kapex and CMS, so mni/midi should suffice for now. You wife will appreciate less dust.

After that I think the domino....for sanding if I was just picking one to start I would go either DTS400 or the RO90.

Len

 

[jacko9]

Hello,

Let me add my 2 cents.  I've been building furniture for the past 35 years and for the past 5 years I have been adding more and more Festool products.

For cutting sheet goods the TS55 with a dust extractor is a great start.  For most furniture building, I would save for a Table Saw one of the safest and indispensable tools in my shop.

I would highly recommend the ETS 150/3 sander which you should use with the Dust Extractor.

Next, I would buy the Domino which you will find to be one of the best tools for furniture building and it makes face frame construction simple and fast.

Good luck and happy building.

Jack

 

[jimmylittle]

Consider also -  if you're breaking down sheet goods with a track saw, you don't really need a BIG table saw.  I have the Bosch GTS1031.  It's a 10" portable saw, and very accurate.  I have a zero-clearance insert and it will do 18" rips.  I can also carry it with one hand like a suitcase the way the roll cage is built.

I mounted it with wing nuts to a table that folds out of my wood rack and sits on PVC legs.  It spends most of it's life folded up, but when I need to rip that 1x4 in half or some other small job that would be dangerous with a track saw, it takes about 15 seconds to fold it down.  It takes less than a minute to break the wing nuts and put it in the van if I need it on site.

As far as safety goes, if it's folded up and unplugged, little hands can't get to the switch or the dangerous bits.

 

[waltwood]

I want to add that I think the track saws are safer than a table saw. I have had and seen many bad things happen with a table saw. The blade retracts after each cut and there are no kickbacks with the tracksaws.

I just used mine in someones living room yesterday for the first time because it was raining out and it left almost no dust using the CT26. I have a $5000 table saw and I use it one third of the time after buying the TS55.

 

[Paul G]

I want to add that I think the track saws are safer than a table saw. I have had and seen many bad things happen with a table saw. The blade retracts after each cut and there are no kickbacks with the tracksaws.

I just used mine in someones living room yesterday for the first time because it was raining out and it left almost no dust using the CT26. I have a $5000 table saw and I use it one third of the time after buying the TS55.

Regarding kickback...http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/ts55-kickback/?all there are other threads also

 

[jacko9]

While some suggest that the track saw is safer than a table saw you need to consider what it is you intend to build with the saw.  If I were a carpenter using sheet goods I would certainly have a track saw. 

If you want to have the versatility to build furniture and cabinets then get a good table saw.  Using a track saw haphazardly can be as dangerous or more time consuming as compared to doing the same work on a table saw in my opinion.

I would suggest that you go to a unbiased source online with furniture and cabinet makers and ask the same questions.  There have been multiple times on here where the table saw/track saw comparisons have been discussed but, keep in mind that most people that have and use one or the other might not be doing the work you talk about.

Get more opinions from multiple sources and then make a decision.

Jack