Buying rough sawn lumber - quality expectations

[ReneS]

I am trying to figure out whether my local hardwood supplier is lacking in quality or I am expecting too much. So I have this question:

When you buy rough sawn hardwood what is a reasonable expectation regarding waste?

I picked through most of what my supplier had in cherry, and it was challenging to get what I wanted.

I got some good boards, but a number of them were disappointing. Things like a loose knot, some sort of checking deeper into the board (not on the end), and little defects in the grain or appearance. I would say I am loosing a good 20% of the material to defects that are too significant to be used where the boards will be seen.

Is this typical? Do you figure on losing a good 20% of what you buy when buying rough sawn hardwood?

Thanks!

 

[luvmytoolz]

Most of the sellers I've bought from here in Oz treat minor splits or checks as part of the unavoidable nature of wood, a big split at one end however they'll usually mark off the size, or more frequently, just drop the lineal price.

I used to try to work around what most would consider defects until it just got too costly and time consuming, now unless it's particularly bad I simply include it and deal with it as a feature wherever possible and suitable.

 

[onocoffee]

Perhaps I'm in lucky region of the country where I've got some great lumber suppliers within reasonable driving distance: Groff & Groff and Hearne Hardwoods are less than two hours away, Frank Thomas is 30 minutes and another sawyer is 2 miles from me.

If I go to either of the first three, I can find FAS dimensional lumber that is clean and clear, and at a little bit of a premium. My local guy harvests his own trees, mills it, dries, kiln dries and stacks it. He has some dimensional lumber as well as slabs. Unless someone askes me for the wood to be clear, I like the strange oddities in the wood and prefer the slabs. But of course, it's going to depend on needs of the project.

 

[smorgasbord]

There are many grades of hardwood:

https://www.woodworkerssource.com/hardwood-lumber-grades.html

Even at the top FAS (Firsts and Seconds), you can have up to 17&⅔% as non-clear cutting, as long as the clear cuttings are at least 4" x 5' or 3" x 7' in size.

 

[luvmytoolz]

Perhaps I'm in lucky region of the country where I've got some great lumber suppliers within reasonable driving distance: Groff & Groff and Hearne Hardwoods are less than two hours away, Frank Thomas is 30 minutes and another sawyer is 2 miles from me.

If I go to either of the first three, I can find FAS dimensional lumber that is clean and clear, and at a little bit of a premium. My local guy harvests his own trees, mills it, dries, kiln dries and stacks it. He has some dimensional lumber as well as slabs. Unless someone askes me for the wood to be clear, I like the strange oddities in the wood and prefer the slabs. But of course, it's going to depend on needs of the project.

From what I've seen the timber/slab supply market in the States is huge, to the point where tool shops or even some stores sell DAR lengths and slabs in all manner of timbers, here in Oz we can get standard Radiata Pine or Vic Ash/Tassie Oak in sizes suitable only for small DIY projects, simple book cases, frames, that sort of thing that just requires 19mm thick timber.

Slabs and larger timber is a lot harder to find here, and is treated as a premium product only available from a small number of local sellers, and a handful of shops across the country. I have a couple of timber suppliers not too far away, and the last time I bought some Blackwood, which is a fairly common timber, not at all exotic, it was around $45L/m for 150 x 38 rough sawn.

And don't even start on the more exotic timbers!

 

[Crazyraceguy]

It depends on what is available to you and how much work you are willing to do. For me, slabs are easier to get. This is the extreme of rough. The loss is far greater than dimensional boards, but the price is lower too. So, assuming that you don't want the live edge, you are theoretically buying more to get the same final size, but the cost difference should at least break even (or preferably less) The real beauty of it though is that it can work to your advantage, if you need shorter parts. A bend of the tree would require the removal of more width, to get straight long boards.
That is what I did, with my recent bench project. The slabs were live-edge and over 11 feet long. I cut them in half, before straight line cutting to width.
Color and figure are harder to see. If they allow it, consider taking a block plane with you. A couple of swipes might give you a better idea, of what you are looking at.
As luv said, I don't have a problem with most defects, unless there are structural problems involved, by using it.
That said, I like the milling process, but I'm not concerned about time anymore. A lot of hobby woodworkers are not equipped for that, especially newbies.

 

[ReneS]

I used to try to work around what most would consider defects until it just got too costly and time consuming, now unless it's particularly bad I simply include it and deal with it as a feature wherever possible and suitable.

That is my experience as well, and I have been leaning towards letting the minor defects be, placing them in the back if possible. It's just that this time, it felt like there were more of them to deal with.

Sadly, as far as I can tell, there aren't many options where I live, just outside of Albany, NY, USA.

Given some of the posts here on FOG, it sounds like Maine and Maryland are pretty good places for woodworkers.

 

[luvmytoolz]

One thing I've learned over the years is that most people who truly appreciate the hand crafted or bespoke items really don't have a problem with natural defects, and when presented or managed in a manner that helps balance them out, actually quite appreciate the uniqueness of what they're buying, for example black epoxy resin looks absolutely stunning in cracks in White Oak. Conversely the ones who want the "perfect table" are usually the type to buy pre-fab furniture for it's uniformity.

Not that there's anything wrong with pre-fab, we have a bunch of Ikea stuff our self, but they have a different expectation and really aren't the target market anyway.

I used to get upset when any marks would appear on the nice dining table or cupboard I made, and try to buff them out to get it looking perfect again, now I look at them as just a natural part of the growing history of a family.

 

[tjbnwi]

You’re estimating losing 20-25% of material. With this loss and your time does the material come in 20-25% less expensive than S4S?

Can you resaw some of it so the loss is lesser? This will also give you some pieces to work with at a later date.

Tom

 

[onocoffee]

From what I've seen the timber/slab supply market in the States is huge, to the point where tool shops or even some stores sell DAR lengths and slabs in all manner of timbers, here in Oz we can get standard Radiata Pine or Vic Ash/Tassie Oak in sizes suitable only for small DIY projects, simple book cases, frames, that sort of thing that just requires 19mm thick timber.

Slabs and larger timber is a lot harder to find here, and is treated as a premium product only available from a small number of local sellers, and a handful of shops across the country. I have a couple of timber suppliers not too far away, and the last time I bought some Blackwood, which is a fairly common timber, not at all exotic, it was around $45L/m for 150 x 38 rough sawn.

And don't even start on the more exotic timbers!

I've not been to Australia but I generally presumed there must be swaths of forests to harvest trees from? Or am I just ignorant of Down Under?

Sadly, as far as I can tell, there aren't many options where I live, just outside of Albany, NY, USA.

Given some of the posts here on FOG, it sounds like Maine and Maryland are pretty good places for woodworkers.

Albany? I find it difficult to believe that there aren't more resources available to you there - especially since there seems to be quite a lot of woodworkers in the Hudson Valley area.

Have you tried Google Maps? I took a peek under "sawmill" and there seems to be some promising spots: Drumm's Sawmill, Hankle Lumber, Pettey's, Capital Sawmill, M&L, Beretz, Rudy Stempel. It might take a little legwork but with all the forest in New York state, there's got to be some great lumber to be had!

Truth be told, until I started looking and asking people, I would never have known that any of the places I go to even existed.

 

[P_K]

That is my experience as well, and I have been leaning towards letting the minor defects be, placing them in the back if possible. It's just that this time, it felt like there were more of them to deal with.

Sadly, as far as I can tell, there aren't many options where I live, just outside of Albany, NY, USA.

Given some of the posts here on FOG, it sounds like Maine and Maryland are pretty good places for woodworkers.

Ghent Wood Products just east of Hudson NY, they've even got a new warehouse space with S4S. Easy drive from Albany.

 

[Cheese]

Related to Tom's reply...I find that a good source for S4S is probably the cheapest route to a finished project if using an obscure hardwood is not the object. I'm lucky to have a wood source within about 10 miles that offers S4S boards, rough sawn lumber and slabs. For anything from maple to whatever...they offer around 40-50 different woods. I use them for all 3 variants that they sell. The S4S for quick and dirty stuff like walnut, maple, QSWO and Jatoba. Rough sawn lumber like aromatic cedar boards and mahogany and then large slabs for things like 2" thick white oak that's 150-200 years old.

 

[Steve1]

I find it's a bit of a crapshoot. You really don't know what you got until you plane it. I appreciate it when they skip-plane the boards just so that you can see what it really looks like.
I think it's just part of the costs of woodworking.

More than just defects in the board, I find I really don't know what it's going to look like until I put finish on it. But I have found that quarter-sawn or rift-sawn boards greatly increase my chances of a pretty finished board

A little while back I bought some African Mahogany and a lot of the 8/4 was trash. Clearly from the same log, plain looking, and full of big worm-holes (?). Not usable. I was making some drawers, so I used it for core of home made plywood for drawer bottoms, with nice wood veneer. And it was a long drive to that vendor so rather difficult to try to return it.

 

[ReneS]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

They are very helpful.

 

[tjbnwi]

I need that purple heart, we bought out all the local stuff, still short for the job.

Tom

 

[jeffinsgf]

I feel so lucky to have Keim Lumber less than an hour's drive. I can go there and ask to pick my own boards. They will drop a full bunk of whatever I want in a corner of the warehouse and leave me alone until I signal the forklift driver that I'm done. Then they'll cut it to rough length if needed to fit in my pickup. For larger lots than I can haul, they have free delivery to my town twice a week. Everything is skip planed to 15/16" (for 4/4) so you can see the figure, but you're not paying for finish planing and giving up the option to use more than 3/4". If you want finish planed, they've got that, too...in a beautiful, well-lit showroom. It's a remarkable experience if you're ever in Northeast Ohio.

All that said, I did get one lot from them where the splits and checks cost me another trip to finish the job. Once in 8 years I can live with.