Cabinets - to build myself or buy...(long)

[cflansbaum]

Hello all...

January marks the "official" beginning of my furniture woodworking business.  I'm blessed with a wife who completely supports this and has been cool with my transforming the garage into a very well equipped shop and now taking over the rest of the basement area for an assembly/refinishing area.  I'll still be working half time at my current job to make sure the bills can get paid.

While we love our current house, our plan has always been to move to a place with more space (land) in 3-5 years.  However upon reflecting on this, we have realized it is probably best to move now as apposed to doing so within just a few years of starting a new business (moving would most likely include remodeling a new place, possibly building a shop, etc -- all taking time away from the business).

Luckily I've done a great deal to this current house so it's value has nicely increased (even in this market), however the last things to be done are the kitchen and bathrooms.  While I've built a fair amount of furniture, I haven't done any cabinetry.  I also don't have a spray finishing setup (yet.)

I've always planned on doing the cabinetry myself (hey that's how I justified the shop!)  But now that we're moving, I'm not shooting for our dream kitchen (although I still would want to put in good quality.)  It's a pretty small kitchen, however I'd like to get this all done in 2 months (and there a few other things to do)...

So now I'm faced with the decision on whether to build the cabinets myself as originally planned or buy pre-made stuff.  I've looked at the box stores, and frankly am unimpressed (vanity cabinets seem ok though).  However my initial on-line research has dug up some interesting direct buy leads.

Has anyone faced the same situation or have feedback?  Cost is always a concern, however due to my time frame, I'd be willing to spend a little more to buy rather than build if I can get good quality and it's not too much more.

thanks in advance!

Carl

 

[Jesse Cloud]

I don't think there's a wrong decision here, but I would suggest that you build it yourself.  Here is the logic

When you go into business for yourself, there's lots more cabinet work than furniture work, and your first few jobs are likely to involve cabinets.  It would be good to get a little practice before you do it for real the first time. 

Go ahead and get a spray setup.  Its the only way to finish and make money.

If you do decide to buy the cabinets, I would buy modest cabinets and save the $$ for the hardware - I think that's what prospective buyers look for.

 

[Eli]

I think Jesse has given good advice.

Doing these cabinets and leaving the house means you don't have to live with any mistakes, and it'll give you insight for making things closer to perfect on your next job.

Jerry Work put up a good method for building cabs that avoids plywood box making, and uses much less solid wood that I think would be worth looking into. Much less finishing as well.

The other side is, a lot of times (depending on the area you live in) you can't compete effectively with someone installing flat packs.  Just because a job is to install cabinets, doesn't mean the most cost effective way to install them is always building everything yourself. In this case it might affect the bottom line of what you get out of the house for profit. Profit that will go right into your next house and your new business.

Like Jesse said, not really a wrong decision.

 

[Daviddubya]

Since you are moving and will not be living with the new cabinetry, you could possibly reface the existing face frames and buy (or make) new doors and drawer fronts.  That alternative, if it works with the existing cabinets, could offer a significant upgrade and would be less expensive and less time consuming than tearing out the old cabinets and replacing them with new cabinets.  There are lots of places you can go to have cabinet refacing done for you, if you don't want to take that on yourself.  You can buy (or build) the new doors and drawer fronts, and install them yourself to save a few bucks and gain the experience.

 

[Dan Clermont]

Jerry Work put up a good method for building cabs that avoids plywood box making, and uses much less solid wood that I think would be worth looking into. Much less finishing as well.

Where is this document?

Thanks
Dan

 

[cflansbaum]

thanks for the feedback...

I like jesse's thought --- my concern is time and the fact that I don't really have a convenient place to spray set up - although doing so may indeed be worth it.

Eli -- do you happen to know the link to Jerry's method?

DD - I would LOVE to do this, unfortunately the boxes are pretty much painted particleboard so I think they're a lost cause....

c.

 

[TahoeTwoBears]

Jerry's link:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=1717.msg17197#msg17197

Sorry, I don't know how to paste links any better than that.

Mike

 

[mastercabman]

if time is an issue,i would consider factory cabinets.
i would look at cheap,but good looking cabs.doesn't matter what is made of.
it sad to say,but most people really don't know anything about building material.
if they see a new kitchen with granite tops and new appliances,they will think of nothing else.
i wouldn't spend my time on building cabinets if i was planning to move.
practice on something else for your business.
what if you build your cabinets and it doesn't look right?start over?fix it?how much time do you have?
it's a buyer market,so i would suggest that you spend your time and money to make the whole house looking good.

what didn't you like about box store cabinets?

 

[cflansbaum]

excellent points...

I hear you - my best friend's an appraiser and all he talks about is having to have granite countertops (which I personally dislike...)

The cabinets at the box stores seemed beat up (maybe this is to be expected from demo models) low end slides and are ~ $150/linear feet.

I'm on the fence - if I could get good quality for ~$90/linear foot that I install myself, I think that's the way I'd go.  Anyone know anything abouthttp://www.directkitchencabinets.com orhttp://www.kitchencabinetmart.com/

thanks

c.

oh yeah -- thanks TahoeTwoBears for the link to the other thread -- that one's got a lot of good info in it!

 

[mastercabman]

i believe you have to be a member to buy from directbuy.
i heard the fee is $$$$,i could be wrong but a lots of people that i know check them out and it was not worth it.
i don't know much about kitchen cabinet mart.(most likely the same as direst buy)
you don't have to do granite for your tops.
but i would put something that most potential buyer would like to see.

 

[Eli]

They have marble (granite?) top refacing as well. Big tiles, small seams.

I second David Dub on the refacing cabinets. Could be a very good option here.

Maybe even (wince) IKEA? Might have some options.

 

[dheisner]

I've been hearing very bad things about DirectBuy of late.  I'd stay clear of them, if I were you.

I built some cabinets for a friend and it was a wonderful learning experience.  The biggest thing in my mind would be the time crunch.  I can tell you that I would be hard pressed to turn out cabinets in 2 months without a serious rearrangement of priorities.  With wife, 4 kids, church, and soccer practice, there is little time to devote for big projects.

I really don't think you can go wrong either way.

My two cents.

Danny

 

[Dan Clermont]

Congrats on the new business and I wish you success.

Personally, I think you should either build or re-skin your existing cabinets and not buy. The experience will be great and having a deadline will also help you learn to work under a timeline.

Good Luck
Dan C

 

[Lou Miller]

I "flip" several houses a year, so this is a decision I deal with all the time. Making cabinets is one of the largest sources of my income at the moment too. I'm 100% setup to make any cabinet I need and I've made thousands of cabinets already. Having said all of that, I BUY EVERY CABINET that I use in a house that is going to be sold right away. In today's real estate market, you won't see a gain of any kind by going with higher end cabinets or making them yourself. When looking for cabinets, I basically ignore the carcass construction as most people looking to buy a home today have zero clue about that stuff. What I do is buy all full overlay cabinets and make sure I get good looking doors and drawer fronts with them. Throw a granite top on them, and get decent looking stainless appliances and 99% of all home buyers will think you went full tilt on the kitchen remodel even though you didn't. Spending a lot of money, or a lot of your valuable time, on cabinets for a house that is going on the market is a complete waste of money today. Trust me, I speak from a ton of experience on this matter. Now if the market suddenly recovers, that changes things a little, but that won't be happening any time soon, IMO. In a seller's market, you can get back the money you invested. In a buyer's market, you have no shot!

 

[cflansbaum]

excellent advice - thanks!

I'm going to get a bid from a local hardware store that has a good department and caters to the builder/DIY, we'll see where that goes.  My plan for cutting back at my "day" job may get delayed a month or two as well so I'll probably have even less time, but a little more $ to put towards it.  Also we're probably going to do tile countertops which I have some experience with and should also save a bit of money that can be put towards them as well.

So I'm beginning to lean towards the idea that building cabinets may be just too much for my timeline -- especially since I have some flooring, painting and trimwork to finish up too!

Maybe I should host the first annual FOG Extreme Makeover Home Edition!

Most likely the place we move into will need even more renovation than this one, so I'm sure I'll be building some soon enough.

Thanks for the warning about Direct Buy -- they do seem a little suspicious.  I think I know someone who has a membership - I'll check with them too.

I'll keep updating...

thanks again to all!

c.

 

[alg]

As an alternative, what about buying used cabinets from Craigslist? Out here in Seattle, there are frequent postings from homeowners replacing modern, very nice cabinets just because they want a different look.

No pun intended, but if you are on a mission to setup your own business, you really have to think outside the box. And with today's economy, you really need to be creative to save $ and time.

 

[chughes]

    For my two cents, I never skip an opportunity to practice on "my" stuff what I will soon charge somebody else for.  This is the best time to pick the techniques you will use and refine and then change your mind adopt a "better" system.  Practice, Practice, Practice. 

 

[Eli]

He needs the money,money,money and doesn't have the time,time,time ;D ;D ;D

 

[chughes]

  I guess I thought the time line on building the casework was still up in the air.  That being said, there are many short cuts to save time and money in a pinch.  My company specializes in building built-in furniture on site so we face these problems all the time.  Boxes are the easy part and all of this work can be done in a small shop space.  Usually we set up in the garage, if we are lucky we can set up inside.  Doors, drawers and drawer fronts can be subbed out locally or via catalog or built on site with a router table.  As to finishing, I bought a product called " Zipwall".  In as large a space that I can find I set up a tent and set fan with filter.  Protect the floor!  This is what we do. 
  The point on my previous post is this; I assume that the members of this site are going to the "next level" and that is why we invest in the Festool "system".  Thats why I say "practice, practice, practice".  I have learned so much both about my tools and general techniques from this group and I hope that I continue to learn the processes that the group members use that I haven't imagined yet. 

 

[cflansbaum]

Well I got the preliminary quote from my local "Hardware Sales" store for some Mission style Maple cabinets from Sky Valley Cabinets and it was very close to what I have budgeted.  That being the case and the reality that I have ALOT of other stuff to do as well made the decision for me.  I'll be going with the decision to buy the cabinets and install them myself.

I'm SURE that I will have the opportunity (probably sooner than later) to build cabinets myself in future place, but right now time is the major factor.

thanks to everyone for the feedback, I really appreciate it!

Carl