CAD and SketchUp

[Michael Kellough]

It's great of Google to make a free version of SketchUp so that everyone has access to the same software. Some pretty nice models have been made with it. But I was frustrated in using it. Maybe I'm spoiled by the way my CAD software works (Ashlar-Vellum 3D) or maybe I'm just stuck in my old ways. Ashlar grew Vellum 3D into a high end Industrial Design application Ashlar Cobalt that was/is beyond my needs. The core software engineering team left Ashlar after a disagreement and started their own company and developed a compeeting product which was bought by a more successful company Punch! Software that specialized in low cost design software. I just learned Punch! has released a somewhat stripped down version of the higher end CI product for only $99. That's a lot more than SketchUp but a couple of years ago this would have cost at least a couple grand and as far as I can tell is also a lot more capable than SketchUp. Check out the video.

I forgot to mention that like SketchUp, this software is for both PCs and Macs (PowerPC and Intel).

 

[Michael Kellough]

Forgot to add; "The software also delivers industry standard interoperability including Google SketchUp, AutoCAD 2007, Adobe Illustrator and other common 3D formats."

And, it's only $85 (less for PC version) at Amazon.

 

[Paul Franklin]

Its the same cost for the Mac version.
I just need to learn it now.

Paul

 

[Dave Rudy]

Michael,

The question for me is is it easier to learn to use than sketchup, for those of us who are graphically and visually challenged?  I'm at the point where the learning curve is sometimes more important than the price (within limits).

Thanks

Dave

 

[Matthew Schenker]

I've tried to use SketchUp a couple of times, downloading it and experimenting with a couple of projects.  Maybe it's just me, but every time I've tried SketchUp I find myself thinking, "It's faster to just draw it."  It's possible I just need to have more patience.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Dave and Matthew,

I was frustrated with SketchUp too which is why I'm suggesting ViaCad. I'd really like to be able to use a CAD application that everyone has access to but SketchUp is too different from what I'm used to. I still use a ten year old version of Ashlar Vellum 3D because it works the way I think. Like you Matthew, I just want to draw my idea and then adjust it. Vellum lets me draw in 3/4 view the way I imagine something and when I have it the way I want I can add surfaces, which is now an archaic way to simulate 3D. Newer software lets (forces) you to work with solids from the get go so even ViaCad is different from what I'm used to.

Simple projects won't benefit from CAD but the more complex a project the more useful it is to have designed in CAD. Some people will prefer SketchUp, especially for quick pre-visuallization of general forms, but for very precise details ViaCad seems to be the best value in a cross platform CAD program. I can't say which a person could learn faster (depends on how you think in addition to the interface) but I'd rather learn the one that has more potential for complexity and precision (at a price everyone can afford) and that seems to be ViaCad 2D/3D.

 

[Dan Clark]

Sketchup works somewhat differently from other CAD tools.  For example, it has an inference engine and it's critical to understand how it works.  The inference engine trys to understand what you want to do based on hints that you give it.  If you want to move an object and have it "snap" to another object or axis, the inference engine takes a hint from object edge that you select.  Once you learn how to give it "hints", it works quite well.

Also, the user interface is very efficient, but it's not obvious at first.  It doesn't work like many windows apps.  But it does work well.

One downside of the Sketchup is that the training materials are somewhat hidden.  For example, when you click "Help -> Video Tutorials" it leads you here:http://sketchup.google.com/vtutorials.html.  Since the latest verson is 6.0, you naturally click on "Google Sketchup 6 Videos".  However, as a beginner, the tutorials that you want are under "Previous SketchUp 5 Videos" (pretty dumb title, IMO) here:http://sketchup.google.com/gsu5vtvideos.html.  Most of these are excellent.  Check 'em out.

Another resource is the self paced tutorials that are in "Help -> Self-Paced Tutorials", which leads you here:http://sketchup.google.com/sptutorials.html.  There's some nice work in there also.

The quick reference card at "Help -> Quick Reference Card" is a very useful reference.  Make sure to print it.

Finally, there are a bunch of keyboard quick keys and mouse/key combos that are very useful.  For example, most people use the Orbit tool constantly.  To make the most of this you MUST, repeat MUST have a wheelie mouse with a click wheel!!!  Here's what you can do with a wheelie click-mouse:

1. Scroll wheel - zoom in and out.
2. Click and hold scroll wheel - Orbit tool is activated
3. Click and hold scroll wheel, then press and hold Shift key - Changes to Pan mode.

By using these in combination, you can navigate EXTREMELY quickly!  For example, scroll wheel to zoom in, click wheel to orbit around, release and wheel to zoom out a bit, click wheel and press/hold the Shift key and pan to right, wheel to zoom in, etc.  Try it out.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Marco F.]

Sketch Up irritated me as well until I watched these two videos that Gary Katz posted on his site.
http://www.garymkatz.com/Video/BookcaseTutorial3.wmv
http://www.garymkatz.com/Video/drawer_tutorial.wmv

They WILL HELP. They helped me tremendously. I had even deleted it from my computer but after watching the videos I was able to use it to design a wine cabinet that I'm building for a customer.

There are a couple of threads on JLC that deal a little more with this and answer a few other questions.

 

[Dan Clark]

A strong second on Gary Katz's videos.    They provide a woodworking/carpentry-centric view of how to use Sketchup.  They give you context on where you would use certain tools (like follow-me) and why.  However...

IMO, the MOST important characteristic of his Sketchup tutorials is that he describes a process of how to build something.  This structured thinking and process in far more important than specific techniques.

I highly recommend his videos.  First, I would go through some of the basic Sketchup tutorials I posted.  Once you have a bit of the basics, then go through Gary's videos.  At least three times!

Regards,

Dan.

 

[daveg]

Interesting, a low cost CAD that can compete with SketchUp. I have SU Pro version, but I haven't been happy with the direction of the product since Google bought SU. I paid a lot of money for SU, but now, they give most everything in the Pro version for nothing. I'll definitely consider ViaCAD. It has some features that should be in SU, now. BTW, I have no problems with using SU. I think it's very intuitive.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Thanks for the SU tips Dan and Marco. I think the idea of a capable universally available CAD program is huge and I want to support it (free SU) even if I end up using ViaCad. I only decided to suggest ViaCad here after reading that it supports SU files so hopefully we can all contribute to a catalog of models from both applications.

Out of loyalty to Vellum I want to point out that the SU "inference engine" is probably an implementation of technology licenced from Ashlar who patented the first implementation of this more than 15 years ago as the "drafting assistant". When they had financial difficulties they licenced it to most everyone, even their arch-rival AutoCAD. In the old days you had to actually type in the XY coordinates of each end of each line if you needed real precision.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

I bought a deluxe version of Punch's home designer software about 4 years ago with the intent to use it to document in detail features of my house which has been added onto at least 3X since the original construction.  I figured their various screen and templates would enable me to accurately record the complex structural, electrical (I have 4 service distribution boxes), HVAC (I have both a 50 year old hydronic radiant system and a 20 year old forced air system) and plumbing.  I gave up after many wasted hours and repeated efforts at trying to draw the foundation walls without success because my foundation is really multiple ones that join end to end in some places and have doubled up parallel walls in others.  Although I read and worked through their training materials, I still could not do what I wanted even with just that foundation.  And if I could not get that right, the rest could never be right, either.  Similarly with SketchUp.  In each case, I found it required much less of my time to create a scale drawing using simple drafting tools - scale, triangles, T-square.  Using these simple techniques, I was able to draw complete views of a new 3-bay garage complete with brick and shinge details in one evening. 

I have heard good reports on AutoCad, at least the way it was about 10 years ago, but I plan to draw several pieces of furniture the old fashioned way, unless someone can steer me to the "PC Drafting for Dummies" remedial training for slow learners.

Dave R.

 

[Eli]

I gave the SketchUp tutorials a shot when it was first released for mac, but really it was like trying to shake a piece of scotch tape off my hand. Tried to get back to it again six months later. I still have it installed, but just can't get it to do what I want. I'd rather sketch with pen, rule, and graph paper. I carry a three ring binder with that stuff everywhere. No power issues ;D

 

[clintholeman]

I tried SketchUp and didn't like it, but an occasion arose where I needed to have a 3-D drawing and so I spent a little time learning it [I want to emphasize little - like 2 hours or less].  After a bit, it sort of all came together and I use it all the time for my drawings now.  My clients love it, and I think it actually makes sales for me.

I understand that it is a bit of a pain at first, but I think it is well worth it. 

And- it's free!

 

[Rocker]

I have looked at SU, but I much prefer TurboCAD for woodwork design, where, in most cases, 2D drawings are perfectly adequate. The main problem with SU is that it does not have a built-in grid, and its snaps are done by the inference engine trying to guess what you require, rather being explicitly chosen by the user. SU was originally intended for producing dimensionless 3D conceptual sketches quickly and easily. It does this very well. But it is a lot harder to use it to draw accurately dimensioned 2D drawings than it is to use a true CAD program that was designed to do that. Another disadvantage of SU is that it cannot draw Bezier curves; so, for example, if you wanted to draw the curve of a a Maloof-style rocker in SU, you are out of luck.

David

 

[Brice Burrell]

I say stick with SketchUp, it is worth the time.

 

[clintholeman]

My guess is that if you work with clients, it is well worth the time.  If it is just for your shop drawings - heck, a quadrille pad and pencil work fine for me - fast too. ;D

Wait a minute, you were looking to document - kind of "as builts" -- I think SU would work fine for that.  I have no problem dimensioning at all.  SU has a pretty easily set up range of dimensions available.

Once you start using it, you'll wonder why you thought it so difficult.  Start with easy stuff first, then the complex pieces will come quickly.

 

[McDaddy1911]

There are a series of Sketchup training videos at http://www.go-2-school.com/.  I thought they where very helpful.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

I came upon the below link this morning, which led to some others.

WOODWEB announces the launch of a new feature at our CAD Forum, the CAD Forum Block Exchange. The Block Exchange will be based on AutoCAD's Tool Palette, and using AutoCAD's Design Center, participants will extract blocks from their drawings and share them with other CAD Forum participants.
John Michael Hivatal (JohnM) will serve as the technical adviser, and will respond to questions participants have about this new feature. For more on the details of extracting and sharing Blocks, follow the link below.
http://www.woodweb.com/Forums/FMCADBlockExchange.html

and
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/cad.pl

and here is a link to a discussion of how to import CAD files into Sketchup and get the dimensions to come out correctly
http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/cad.pl?read=522821

Please note that I have not tried any of the ideas in WOODWEB's CAD Forum, as I am among the severely computer-challenged and have had zero success in trying to use any PC based design software!  Does anyone else here on FOG suffer similar frustration?  I note that FWW's most recent issue has a short article touting use of Google's Sketchup freeware and its professional version.  I tried the freeware once and soon thereafter had to buy a new PC (not really due to Sketchup).  I would love to know how to use CAD software, particularly to play with "what if" ideas and to show them to "the client" (my wife and family) before cutting any wood, but repeatedly find the amount of time spent and level of frustration too high compared to hand drawn sketches, and even semi-formal drawings using basic drafting instruments. 

Dave R.

 

[Cary Swoveland]

...I just learned Punch! has released a somewhat stripped down version of the higher end CI product for only $99. That's a lot more than SketchUp but a couple of years ago this would have cost at least a couple grand and as far as I can tell is also a lot more capable than SketchUp. Check out the video...

I watched the ViaCad video and was very impressed.  However, I'm unable to gauge how difficult it would be to learn.  I've been using DesignCad for several months, with mixed results.  I have two main problems with it.  Firstly, I perform most operations in ways that I know are very inefficient--I just haven't been able to figure out the shortcuts.  Secondly, if I put it aside for a few months, it takes a fair bit of time to get back up to speed (such as it is).  Not surprisingly, DesignCad's developers have worked hard to make their product ever-more "feature-rich", but that just makes learning the basics harder.

I'm concerned that I might have the same problem with ViaCad and many other CAD programs.  Sure, there are tutorials and help-groups, but what I really need is somebody standing over my shoulder for a few hours, who I can also ring-up with questions.  For me, the main attraction of Sketchup is the wealth of learning materials, and, because of its popularity, the prospect that I may be able to find a Sketchup pro locally who can help me over the hump at reasonable cost.  Does this make sense?

Cary