Can you use L class AC for Renofix work?

[ali]

Hi guys, looking to do a lot more renovation work in the future and buying some of the new Renofix tools along with the planex.

I was wondering if I can use my L Class autoclean extractor or if I'm going to have to pump up and pay the extra for an M class?

I know the M class is for finer dust but are there any real noticeable differences?

 

[Kev]

Are you talking about commercial or domestic? If commercial, I do't think it'd be wise to take the risk. Domestic, you make sensible choices (which could still mean a finer particle vac).

 

[bobfog]

I'm not completely familiar with Festool vacs as I use Bosch because they're cheaper and more powerful. In terms of Boach the difference between L and M class is that the M class simply has an alarm when suction drops below a specific level due to full bags, clogged filters, blocked hose, etc. It's an "elf and safety" thing. The filtration performance is exactly the same with the same filter.

So in reality if Festool is the same, which I think is likely the case, provided you are keeping a sensible eye on the suction performance of your vac and don't let it drop off,, there's no performance difference between L and M class.

 

[ali]

Thanks for both replies guys. I was planning to do a few controlled projects whilst I get to grips with the new tools before I let myself loose, do realise it could be a risk but couldn't see any major differences between the ctl and ctm.

Think Bob might be right on this one and after doing a bit more searching think this has already been discussed on the FOG:

 

[ali]

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/ctm-or-ctl-26/

 

[PreferrablyWood]

The M class has a filter that remove's dust particles that are an order of 10 smaller than the L class as well as having the suction sensing device that sets off an alarm if the levels go below the permitted threshold. I think the M class bags on the festool have a sliding port that locks the bag up for disposal. Additionally there is port closure mechanism for when the hose is disconnected.

 

[AlexThePalex]

It has been discussed many times on the FOG already.

Like bob said, only difference between L and M is the alarm. There's is no real functional difference, because most people quickly realise themselves suction has fallen. It's just some BS regulation thought up by bureaucrats.

The M class has a filter that remove's dust particles that are an order of 10 smaller than the L class as well as having the suction sensing device that sets off an alarm if the levels go below the permitted threshold. I think the M class bags on the festool have a sliding port that locks the bag up for disposal. Additionally there is port closure mechanism for when the hose is disconnected.

Incorrect, filter and bags are exactly the same. The alarm is the ONLY difference.

 

[PreferrablyWood]

Note the points about particle size.

L class from Festool UK:For dust with limit values > 1 mg/m³
Flexible and clean in the workshop and at the construction site thanks to a compact design and a container volume of 36 litres
Integral automatic electronic switch-on/shut-off for extraction from electric power tools
Suitable for both wet and dry extraction
container/filter bag capacity 36/34 l
approval for dust class L

M class from Festool UK: The AUTOCLEAN version with 36 litre container volume.
Approved for dust category M
Antistatic function prevents static developing during work
Attachment of Systainers via Sys-Dock
Constantly high suction because of the compact high performance turbine
Hose garage and cable windup for greater tidiness and safety
AUTOCLEAN automatic main filter cleaning system with infinitely adjustable cleaning intervals
Approval for dust class L or M
Main areas of use
For dust with limit values > 0.1 mg/m³
For dust with limit values > 1 mg/m³ (CTL) or > 0.1 mg/m³ (CTM)
As an addition to the PLANEX LHS 225 long-reach sander, particularly for sanding filler
Integral automatic electronic switch-on/shut-off for extraction from electric power tools
Suitable for both wet and dry extraction
approved for dust class M
container/filter bag capacity 36/34 l
with AUTOCLEAN function
Special extractor for the PLANEX long-reach sander LHS 225.
for mineral dust

 

[bobfog]

L class from Festool UK:For dust with limit values > 1 mg/m³
Flexible and clean in the workshop and at the construction site thanks to a compact design and a container volume of 36 litres
Integral automatic electronic switch-on/shut-off for extraction from electric power tools
Suitable for both wet and dry extraction
container/filter bag capacity 36/34 l
approval for dust class L

M class from Festool UK: The AUTOCLEAN version with 36 litre container volume.
Approved for dust category M
Antistatic function prevents static developing during work
Attachment of Systainers via Sys-Dock
Constantly high suction because of the compact high performance turbine
Hose garage and cable windup for greater tidiness and safety
AUTOCLEAN automatic main filter cleaning system with infinitely adjustable cleaning intervals
Approval for dust class L or M
Main areas of use
For dust with limit values > 0.1 mg/m³
For dust with limit values > 1 mg/m³ (CTL) or > 0.1 mg/m³ (CTM)
As an addition to the PLANEX LHS 225 long-reach sander, particularly for sanding filler
Integral automatic electronic switch-on/shut-off for extraction from electric power tools
Suitable for both wet and dry extraction
approved for dust class M
container/filter bag capacity 36/34 l
with AUTOCLEAN function
Special extractor for the PLANEX long-reach sander LHS 225.
for mineral dust

The specifications are talking about different exposure values based on HSE regulations calculated/governed by the overall ability of the machine. i.e. the L class will expel less than 1% of dust below a particular particle size back into the atmosphere per cubic metre.

Because the M class has the alarm and in theory the person using it will immediately stop using the machine if the alarm sounds (doesn't often happen in real life) so the amount of dust below a particular particle size expelled into the surrounding atmosphere is less than 0.1% as a product of good filtration and the warning of substandard suction.

So if one ignores the alarm an M class is no better than an L class vac and if both working at optimum performance with no clogged hoses, filters or full bags an M class is no better than an L class.

It's like Mercedes cars have sensors that tell the driver if they're sleepy and drifting between lanes and suggest they pull over to rest/get coffee, etc. So some insurance companies consider them safer cars as statistically and theoretically the driver is less likely to fall asleep at the wheel. But if the driver is busy and needs to get to an appointment and ignores the warning he's no safer than if he were in any other car.

 

[PreferrablyWood]

Need to look the filter spec' but however they achieve the M class in there vacuums it's the end user that can gain a benefit from less exposure to fine dust.

 

[bobfog]

Need to look the filter spec' but however they achieve the M class in there vacuums it's the end user that can gain a benefit from less exposure to fine dust.

Yes, but the point being made is that there is no mechanically better filtration, the filters are the same, it's just a warning of loss of suction.
How much benefit that alarm is is questionable because most people can tell when their vacuum loses suction because there's a change in the tone of the motor when the suction drops anyhow.

If you're buying a new vac then M Class might be a good option for some, but I'd never replace a perfectly functioning L Class equivalent for such a minor gain.

 

[Bohdan]

From the UK Festool website:

CTL "For dust with limit values > 1 mg/m³" Filter part #496170

CTM "For dust with limit values > 0.1 mg/m³" Filter part #496172

so obviously the filters are different. The CTM also has the warning system.

From the Aust website CT 26/36/48 which has a HEPA filter giving "99.95 separation efficiency at .03 microns" so by quoting different specs for different regions Festool successfully manages to keep everybody suitably confused.

A standard CT filter quotes "Designed to trap particles down to 1 micron" Filter #496170 same as the UK CTL.

It also appears that the CTM filters are not available in Aust.

In the filter specs for Aust and US "HEPA Main Filter captures 99.99% of particulate matter down to .3 microns" Part #498994

The only thing that is obvious is that the CTL is not as efficient in filtering dust as the CTM in EU and in Aust and US they sell the HEPA filters to achieve the M class filtration.

 

[bobfog]

From the UK Festool website:

CTL "For dust with limit values > 1 mg/m³" Filter part #496170

CTM "For dust with limit values > 0.1 mg/m³" Filter part #496172

so obviously the filters are different. The CTM also has the warning system.

From the Aust website CT 26/36/48 which has a HEPA filter giving "99.95 separation efficiency at .03 microns" so by quoting different specs for different regions Festool successfully manages to keep everybody suitably confused.

A standard CT filter quotes "Designed to trap particles down to 1 micron" Filter #496170 same as the UK CTL.

It also appears that the CTM filters are not available in Aust.

In the filter specs for Aust and US "HEPA Main Filter captures 99.99% of particulate matter down to .3 microns" Part #498994

The only thing that is obvious is that the CTL is not as efficient in filtering dust as the CTM in EU and in Aust and US they sell the HEPA filters to achieve the M class filtration.

I believe the difference in part numbers is 496172 is for AC vacs and to do with the toughness to withstand the extra stress put on the filter fabric/paper for the autoclean function. I don't believe either is better or worse than the other in terms of particle size filtration.

 

[Bohdan]

[member=60286]bobfog[/member]

CTL "For dust with limit values > 1 mg/m³" Filter part #496170

CTM "For dust with limit values > 0.1 mg/m³" Filter part #496172

That is at least a 10 times more efficient filter in the CTM also from different sources the L class is for general vacuuming, as in cleaning up, and is NOT suitable for wood dust. The M class warning system and selfcleaning are an EU requirement on top of the requirement for filtering of wood dust which the US and Aust achieve by selling with a HEPA filter.

 

[Kev]

Regardless of the actual technical differences, my point was to be cautious from a legal perspective. I don't know how operators are monitored, but if some inspection found you to be using the "wrong equipment" and thereby creating a perceived health risk for others, you could find yourself in a situation you could have avoided.

Festool make different tools, for specific tasks - one set meets regulations, the other doesn't. Is there an acceptable work procedure, that meets legal regulations, that allows you to use the non certified machines? I doubt it!

 

[PreferrablyWood]

I'm seriously interested in having the highest level of dust filtration. I do work in places like kindergartens, apartments with elderly residents, so I want to be able to inform my clients that I use.an M class vac, here in the EU. I have checked prices on the different dust class vacs and don't really see a huge price difference. Probably just the cost of the upgraded filter and the alarm.

 

[Frank-Jan]

[member=60286]bobfog[/member]

CTL "For dust with limit values > 1 mg/m³" Filter part #496170

CTM "For dust with limit values > 0.1 mg/m³" Filter part #496172

That is at least a 10 times more efficient filter in the CTM also from different sources the L class is for general vacuuming, as in cleaning up, and is NOT suitable for wood dust. The M class warning system and selfcleaning are an EU requirement on top of the requirement for filtering of wood dust which the US and Aust achieve by selling with a HEPA filter.

The CTL26 AC also comes with Filter part #496172.  I think the limit values are a measure how "dangerous" the dust is (How much is allowed in a m³ of air). So the actual filter is exactly the same, but the M class has added features that make sure  the dust is actually being extracted.

 

[AlexThePalex]

CTL "For dust with limit values > 1 mg/m³" Filter part #496170

CTM "For dust with limit values > 0.1 mg/m³" Filter part #496172

Bohdan, source please.

Like bob said, you mix up the filters for the normal version and the AC version. We've gone over this issue before in another thread where you also mixed up a lot of info.

Furthermore, Festool UK is not the best place to get your info. In the UK all CTM vacs are replaced with the CTM AC model. In other countries like Netherlands and Germany the full range is available. If you check those websites you'll see the CTL and CTM vacs come with the exact same filters.

 

[Bohdan]

[member=5277]Alex[/member]

Since you don't accept the information on the UK website here is what the Festool Netherlands has to say about their non AC models:

CTL "Voor stoffen met grenswaarden > 1 mg/m³", Toelating voor stofklasse L" Standard Filter #496170

CTM "Voor stoffen met grenswaarden > 0,1 mg/m³", "toelating voor stofklasse M" They don't specify which filter you get but list the replacements as HEPA filter #498994 or Standard Filter #496170

And for the AC models:

CTL AC "Toelating voor stofklasse L", filter not specified.

CTM AC "Voor stoffen met grenswaarden > 0,1 mg/m³", "toelating voor stofklasse M" filter #496172.

It appears that you are correct that the #496172 is made to suit the AC function but it also has a finer filtration capability.

So like I said Festool don't specify in their advertising which filter you actually get so it may be possible to have an M class CT fitted with a L class filter but I would not expect them to come that way judging by the claimed filtration figures.

 

[festool-D5VEO]

I recently purchased the DSG-AG 125. Firstly let me say what a great bit of kit! its saved a fortune self leveling compound already!

I tried using my CTL 26 first but with in a minute the filters were blocked and I had lost at least 50% of the suction. So annoyingly I had to purchase CTM 36 E AC HD. This works brilliantly!!! Forgetting health and safety for a minute the main difference seems to be the auto clean... However I would imagine over time (depending on the usage) the fine dust particles would find there way through the CTL filter and damage the motor... Could you not just purchase the high performance filter which comes with a CTM and put it into your CTL??? presume they are the same size??