Car companies lie and cheat. Surprise.

[Packard]

In 2019, I bought a new Honda CRV.  The deluxe model with leather seating and all the goodies. 

I kept it 4 months, then traded it in on a Chrysler.

The car would not reach operating temperature unless driven at highway speeds.  And once it reached operating temperature, it would go cold if used at lower speeds or left to idle.

So the defroster would never work in a snow storm. 

Honda had a fix.  It involved replacing the fuel injectors.  They retrofitted these injectors on all unsold new cars on the dealer lots.  My car missed that retrofit by 3 weeks. 

The area rep said that I could have that same thing done, but since Honda does not acknowledge any defect, I would have to pay for it myself (a little over $700.00).

So I traded it in.

Now Toyota confesses that the safety testing results were bogus.  But not-to-worry because all those cars are safe anyway.  Mazda confessed similarly. 

Toyota says that the required tests were “overly stringent”.  They didn’t believe the tests were necessary, so lying about them was OK.  Except they got caught.
https://apnews.com/article/toyota-c...kers-scandal-26585a96df2a32f7d67a4011a0a98772

TOKYO (AP) — Toyota Chairman Akio Toyoda apologized Monday for massive cheating on certification tests for seven vehicle models as the automaker suspended production of three of them.

 

[Holzhacker]

Years ago, I bought a brand new mercury sable, i.e. rebranded Taurus, off the show room floor. Worst car I ever had and I've had around 80. Nothing but trouble with that car from day one. Ford of course said it was all my fault, not the car, not them. After about 2 years and another problem, I parked the car on the street, called Ford and told them where it was so they could pick it up. Told them I would never lay eyes on that car again.
Took another 2 years to negotiate a settlement, it was FMC financed.
Don't you know, during that time most of the issues I had with that car came out as recalls. Worked out great for the settlement.
Probably all because of the stupid bean counters. When will they learn. Same issue with Boeing right now reportedly, bean counters instead of engineers.

 

[MikeGE]

Never in my wildest dreams would I link fuel injectors to engine operating temperature.  My 2018 Ford Ranger developed a similar problem last November.  It took forever for the cooling system to reach operating temperature and the temperature dropped rapidly as soon as I entered city traffic. 

My simple fix was to replace the thermostat.  Of the two thermostat failure modes, mine failed open and never let the coolant heat up sufficiently.

 

[Packard]

Never in my wildest dreams would I link fuel injectors to engine operating temperature.  My 2018 Ford Ranger developed a similar problem last November.  It took forever for the cooling system to reach operating temperature and the temperature dropped rapidly as soon as I entered city traffic. 

My simple fix was to replace the thermostat.  Of the two thermostat failure modes, mine failed open and never let the coolant heat up sufficiently.

Apparently the thin-walled aluminum block is almost air cooled.  The thin wall, in the interest in light weight. 

In the interest in improved fuel economy, the fuel injectors spread the gasoline in a wide plume.  This accomplished a few things.  It improved combustion due to the wider spread; it washed the oil off of the cast iron liners causing premature wear; and it provided extra evaporative cooling (and thus the reason for the changeover).

I was stuck in an early-in-the-season snow storm.  I left my office at 1:00 p.m. and arrived home at 2:30 a.m.  That’s 13-1/2 hours.  I had a full tank of gas, but no heat.  The snow, and then ice would build up on the wipers below the hood line.  So every half hour I had to get out of the car, lift the engine hood and manually clear the wipers. 

And even when we got going, I had to pull over the the side of the highway in the raging storm and repeat every 20 minutes.  Dangerous.  When I got home, I decided to get rid of the car. 

I learned an interesting fact:  Despite all the excellent reviews, the Honda forums were riddled with complaints on this same point. 

Learned lesson:  Don’t just go by the reviews.  Join the associated car forum and read what they are saying.  It was all out there to read.  In fact, at that time Canada’s DOT equivalent was considering a mandatory recall on both the CRV and the Civic which shared the same engine. 

The Chrysler had electronics issues.  It seems to be the major area of complaint with most manufacturers and the reason Porsche fares so well (they produce the most highly analog vehicles on the road currently).

My father bought the first new model VW after the Beetle (I think it was the 411?).  The brakes were so deficient that he felt unsafe driving it.  The dealer claimed it was fine.  After a couple of months he traded it in.  That back when the minute you drove off the dealer’s lot your car depreciated 50%.  So a very tough decision. 

He said, “I’m not going to get up and go to work every morning to get angry with a car.  And I’m definitely not going to drive my family in it either.”

I share his aversion to people and situations that get me angry.  And I have traded in more cars early than he did.

1.  1970 Monte Carlo, about 2 months.  Brake booster was inadequate and it had excessive stopping distances.

2.  Chevy Malibu (don’t remember the year, c. 1975).  Pre-fuel injection efforts at improving fuel economy.  If you made a left turn from a stop, the engine would quit.  Apparently the float level was so low that on left turns it would starve the engine.  Of course there was also the oncoming traffic to deal with.  I gave the dealer time to try to fix it, but it was an engineering issue, not a maintenance issue.

4.  1984 Z28 Camaro.  The T-tops leaked.  I could live with that.  The battery would go dead each time it rained.  (No cell phones back then, so I got wet pretty often.). Chevy could not fix it.  I kept it for a year (I really wanted to like that car).

5.  And then there was the Honda CRV detailed in my opening post.

Addendum:  The CRV would have been fine in warmer states.  If you live in Florida, it is an OK car.

 

[Packard]

Years ago, I bought a brand new mercury sable, i.e. rebranded Taurus, off the show room floor. Worst car I ever had and I've had around 80. Nothing but trouble with that car from day one. Ford of course said it was all my fault, not the car, not them. After about 2 years and another problem, I parked the car on the street, called Ford and told them where it was so they could pick it up. Told them I would never lay eyes on that car again.
Took another 2 years to negotiate a settlement, it was FMC financed.
Don't you know, during that time most of the issues I had with that car came out as recalls. Worked out great for the settlement.
Probably all because of the stupid bean counters. When will they learn. Same issue with Boeing right now reportedly, bean counters instead of engineers.

Different countries have different car engineering cultures.

Germany, for instance.  The engineers draw up the chassis, engine, suspension and assign various fixed points.  They then go to the “designers” and say, “do your thing, but not a single one of those fixed points can be changed”.

Italy:  The designer comes up the next Ferrari or Lamborghini and says, “This is what the car is to look like.  Come up with a chassis and engine anyway you want, but not a single line of the car can be changed.”

Sweden:  Everyone knew at the beginning it would be either a 2-box (station wagon) or 3-box (sedan) design.

America:  The designers work hand in glove with the engineers.  They come up with a design.  Then the accountants come in.  “The tail light assembly costs $200.00 per car; we only allocated $75.00.  Come up with a better solution.”  At the end, it erodes the design and performance, but possibly sells more cars. 

England:  Let’s design beautiful cars and then sabotage the design by using English-made electronics.

I would note that the one positive thing that came from Damlier-Benz’ acquisition of Chrysler, was that they learned that even middling quality cars would sell well if the design was beautiful.  (Or in the case of the Chrysler 300, if it had “presence”.). After M-B’s divorce from Chrysler, M-B paid far more attention to design.  (That is one man’s opinion).

 

[Crazyraceguy]

That seems very counterintuitive? Most of the point of the "running temperature" in modern cars is about emissions. In general, cars built in the fuel injection era run 20-25 degrees warmer than their previous counterparts. Carbureted, cast iron V8 engines in those earlier years commonly had 180 degree thermostats and would have been considered "running hot" at the 205 degrees that is far more common today.
The higher temps supposedly contribute to a more complete combustion, resulting in lower carbon emissions.
Plus, a lot of modern cars have electric fans, rather than the belt-driven ones from before. This would allow an idling car to heat up easier, since the cooling fans are thermostatically controlled, thus not runnig constantly.

The worst part of auto manufacturers is not really the lying (or even omitting important information)
it is the "calculated" allowance of bad (even dangerous) designs. They will know full well that something is bad, may even cause deaths, but it is more costly to change, recall, etc. No one in particular, they have all done it and it's shameful.

 

[Packard]

That seems very counterintuitive? Most of the point of the "running temperature" in modern cars is about emissions. In general, cars built in the fuel injection era run 20-25 degrees warmer than their previous counterparts. Carbureted, cast iron V8 engines in those earlier years commonly had 180 degree thermostats and would have been considered "running hot" at the 205 degrees that is far more common today.
The higher temps supposedly contribute to a more complete combustion, resulting in lower carbon emissions.
Plus, a lot of modern cars have electric fans, rather than the belt-driven ones from before. This would allow an idling car to heat up easier, since the cooling fans are thermostatically controlled, thus not runnig constantly.

The worst part of auto manufacturers is not really the lying (or even omitting important information)
it is the "calculated" allowance of bad (even dangerous) designs. They will know full well that something is bad, may even cause deaths, but it is more costly to change, recall, etc. No one in particular, they have all done it and it's shameful.

My guess is that Honda was more concerned about the cost of rebuilding engines that failed because the fuel injectors washed all the oil off the cylinder walls. 

And yes, cars are designed to run hotter nowadays than they did in the 1970s through the 1990s.  But the larger “cloud” of widely dispersed gasoline was supposed to be more explosive and provide more thorough burning.  That in turn was supposed to reduce emissions and improve fuel economy.  Instead it created extra cooling on the cylinder and washed away the oil on the cylinder wall. 

All of these problems would have been identified if they did longer field testing. But computer modeling has reduced the need for field testing, and in some cases manufacturers have relied on computer modeling too much and field testing too little.

Haven’t you come across design errors that left you with the question, “How did they miss that?”

 

[Sparktrician]

Back in the early '70s, I worked for the local phone company.  We worked out of the same garage that held the mobile radio shop (before the advent of cell phones).  The DC government brought in a fleet of cars to be fitted with mobile phones.  I was looking at one from the front and something didn't look right, but I couldn't get the actual issue.  I walked down the right side and saw the model marque that said "Ford Granada".  When I got around back, I noticed two different taillights.  Walking by the left side, the marque said "Mercury Monarch".  When I got back in front, I saw that there were two different headlight bezels.  At the same time, my dad had a '72 Mercury.  He was driving home one evening when another motorist came alongside him and yelled that his taillight was falling off.  My dad pulled into the State Police barracks and looked.  Sure enough, the taillight was dangling by the wires.  There was quite a conversation with the dealer that resulted.  So much for Ford's quality workmanship... 

 

[Michael Kellough]

I’ve always been interested in cars but not to the point of spending a lot of money on them. I always get what is most practical for me and that has been mini vans since the ‘80’s. I see a lot of SUV’s on my street and a many of them look bigger than my Toyota Sienna but none will hold a sheet of plywood.

I’ve been reading Consumer Reports for decades and it’s been shocking to see the reliability rating charts for Mercedes Benz go from solid green to including a lot of yellow and red.

Back in September I rented a Chrysler Pacifica Plug-in Hybrid from Alamo rental to drive from Jacksonville to Tallahassee. The gasoline engine never came on and left us stranded at midnight near Lake City. Just an alert that said “prepare for the vehicle will stop soon”. Alamo had it towed up to Valdosta, Ga.

Bad as that was the worst was the Alamo/National/Enterprise rental rep at Tallahassee airport who said “Sure we’ll give you a replacement. Just bring in the Pacifica.” That plug-in Pacifica is now distinguished in Consumer Reports as being the most unreliable vehicle of all.

 

[Packard]

Back in the early '70s, I worked for the local phone company.  We worked out of the same garage that held the mobile radio shop (before the advent of cell phones).  The DC government brought in a fleet of cars to be fitted with mobile phones.  I was looking at one from the front and something didn't look right, but I couldn't get the actual issue.  I walked down the right side and saw the model marque that said "Ford Granada".  When I got around back, I noticed two different taillights.  Walking by the left side, the marque said "Mercury Monarch".  When I got back in front, I saw that there were two different headlight bezels.  At the same time, my dad had a '72 Mercury.  He was driving home one evening when another motorist came alongside him and yelled that his taillight was falling off.  My dad pulled into the State Police barracks and looked.  Sure enough, the taillight was dangling by the wires.  There was quite a conversation with the dealer that resulted.  So much for Ford's quality workmanship...

A few years back, about a half mile from the Mercedes dealer, I stopped alongside a brand new M-B full size SUV.  I honked my horn to get the driver to lower his window.

I yelled out, “Man! All your gas is spilling onto the pavement.”

He said, “I just picked it up less than 5 minutes ago.  I’ve spilled more than half.  I don’t know if I can make it back.”

The light turned green and he made a u-turn back to the dealership.

I had a 1987 Audi Quattro.  Not a cheap car.  Bought new.  A lot of rattles from the front and a draft into the passenger compartment.  The dealer found nothing wrong.

My personal mechanic took a look. ALL of the bolts fastening the firewall in place were missing and none were ever in place.  They just forgot to bolt the firewall at all.

I had a 1990 Ford Lightning pickup truck.  They bolted the chassis cross members on one side of the truck only.  The other side was never bolted in place.

So, German, American, Japanese, they all screwed up.

 

[Ron B]

My daughter had a 2013 Hyundai Santa Fe-the engine locked up as she was going down the freeway.  Vehicle had over 140,000 miles at that time.  There was a recall and Hyundai installed a new short block free of charge. 

I have a Chevrolet Colorado that I can stick my finger through the frame, it is rusting so bad.  I will not buy a new Chevrolet but I would consider a new Hyundai. 

 

[Vtshopdog]

My wife had a 2013 "diesel-gate" VW.  Talk about cheat and lie.

The thing was an awesome car, it would pull 45 MPG on the interstate going 90-100 MPH, all the while spewing a toxic cloud that could not be measured when emission checks were performed.

Since it was fairly new when the scandal broke in 2015 our settlement buyback value was set fairly high and would not decline before the required return date in June of 2018.  We drove it to within a month of the last date. 

The generous buy back price was added to a roughly $10K payout they had to make as part of their settlement.  Wife likes Volkswagens and in spring of 2018 they were being boycotted and sitting on lots of cars at very heavy discount, (roughly 20%).  We walked out with a bit of an upgrade for maybe $800 out of pocket after using the diesel for 5 years.

Once in a lifetime chance to come out on the long end of the stick in a car purchase, don't think it will happen again.

 

[smorgasbord]

Wait - you guys still buying cars that burn gasoline?

 

[Sparktrician]

My wife had a 2013 "diesel-gate" VW.  Talk about cheat and lie.

My son has a 2012 Passat diesel sedan.  A couple of years ago, it quit running right, so he took it to a dealer to get fixed.  The diagnosis was a "cracked turbo housing" that had to come from Germany.  Since it, too was part of the diesel-gate settlement, they gave my son a loaner Subaru Outback, then another, and a third one while they waited for the replacement turbo housing to arrive.  Meanwhile the Passat sat on the dealer's lot getting filthy for over a year.  Then someone decided to re-do the diagnosis only to find a disconnected vacuum hose.  In all fairness, the dealer replaced the battery that had gone dead and all four tires that had dried out and cracked sitting on the lot, and did a great job detailing the car for my son.  To the dealer's credit, they apologized profusely for the misdiagnosis and ate the expense of the three Outback loaners.  The Passat is back on the road now and doing quite well, and my son now knows where that vacuum hose is that apparently blew off, just in case... 

 

[Packard]

Wait - you guys still buying cars that burn gasoline?

You guys still burning forests to keep warm? [eek]

 

[smorgasbord]

Wait - you guys still buying cars that burn gasoline?

You guys still burning forests to keep warm? [eek]

Solar, and still some propane, unfortunately.