Carpenter Unions ***Please keep politics out***

[tjbnwi]

Where in Indiana? If it is the northwest, there will be a flood of union tradesmen in the halls as the BP 5 year project finishes up in the next few months. Just something to consider if your heading up this way.

Not a lot going on in Chicago either.

Tom

 

[farms100]

Oh yeah my brother is a  union carpenter out in seattle area,  the work has really dried up out there. He also got a ration of crap for working fast. most of the union work tends towards large construction jobs. 

 

[dinkjs]

Where in Indiana? If it is the northwest, there will be a flood of union tradesmen in the halls as the BP 5 year project finishes up in the next few months. Just something to consider if your heading up this way.

Not a lot going on in Chicago either.

Tom

Indianapolis area

 

[Holzhacker]

I grew up in a very anti union environment. Nonetheless I'm fairly neutral on yes or no. I've seen the good and bad of unions.
I had to join the local carpenters union for about 5 years for a job. As Rick eluded to, being a go-getter wasn't looked upon very well. Most of the time the least qualified got the best positions. It was a real eye opener in terms of seeing how things work politically.
I don't think asking whether you should join a union or not is really the right question. A more appropriate question would be to ask yourself what type of work you want to do. As others have mentioned, it's a straight forward job. Clock in, clock out, you're done. No major responsibility, others tell you what to do, you essentially do the same task over and over.
If you go wildcat then of course you'll have longer hours, more responsibility etc.
As a carpenter one note of caution I would suggest. The union carpenters I have known over the years have pretty much all been very specialized. They've all been extremely good 'at what they do'. But they haven't been very good at much else. If a union guy has been framing roofs, then that's what he's great at. Try sticking him on an office framing job or trim job and it may not go so well. If you are looking for a well rounded education the union path may not be the best option.
We like to joke around here; that you can stick a rehabber on a new construction job and as long as he can read prints he'll be fine. If you stick a union new construction guy on a vintage rehab job though he'll probably have convulsions.
Good luck.

 

[GhostFist]

my comments more or less were referring to initial apprenticeships and training. Here in Canada this is something IMO that needs to seriously be addressed though I have little to no faith in our government to do so. The local carpenters union as far as I understand do mostly industrial construction as far as their work goes. We often get journeymen from that union into our film union when we are in need of extra people. Some are very smart on the books but rough on the practical stuff as I've noticed. I had loads of practical, but no class based training at first. both routes have their advantages and disadvantages.

For the record I am a union member now, though in film, which is different......  In a lot of ways you still operate fairly freelance in the field. There is no seniority per say so no one can push you out of a key position once you're in one. Movies are a weird world, it would take me another 45 paragraphs to go into detail so I'll spare you.

 

[GhostFist]

Vik's comments mirror my experience in the film union. payday is Thursday. Benefits are covered no rate haggling and no getting ripped off.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

I don't have to worry about getting ripped off by a customer, don't have to worry about shaving 15% off my quote just to compete with Vlad and keep me and the crew rolling, don't have to worry about my family if I get sick or injured. I take breaks, lunch, get paid overtime when I stay longer, or am asked to come in early - a fair wage for a day worked.  

Vi_k, it kind of sounds like you are comparing being self-employed with being a union employee. That is an apples-to-oranges comparison. Regardless whether someone is union or not, an employee doesn't have to worry about whether a customer pays or not. An employee also doesn't have to worry about how much money a customer pays for the work. These are the worries of the employer (or self-employed), not the employee.

I am not sure whether this is just a local state law versus a federal law (I suspect federal though), but it is illegal for an employer to withhold pay from an employee for any reason. If you are on the clock, you must be paid. That is the law. It is also the law that you must have breaks during the day. There is a mandatory break for the first and second 4 hours of a shift, and a mandatory 1/2 hour lunch in between.

Oh, if you are an hourly employee, overtime pay is also covered by law (salaried employees are exempt). I am not sure whether the threshold is 40 hours or 48 hours, but overtime pay is mandated by law.

Canada may be different, but the U.S. has very strict labor laws, and employers cannot violate them. Violating a union contract is a civil matter. However, violating a State or Federal labor law is a criminal matter. If you violate a civil agreement, you can get hit with a monetary penalty. But if you violate a labor law, not only would there be a fine, but someone could even go to jail over it too.

Edit: By the way, if you are referring to being freelance or self-employed, that is something unique solely to the movie industry (or government projects). No other industry can force that to happen, because no other industry has contracts in place high enough up the food chain.

There must be a contract in place for any union rule to have any effect. So a trim carpenter working freelance on a tract of homes for a general contractor is not afforded union benefits unless that GC is already bound by a contract by the union.

 

[GhostFist]

Oh sure we have those laws too, but coming up in carpentry, working for independent contractors you're often not on the books or paid as a subcontract yourself. So ya your boss can rip you off and does.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Oh sure we have those laws too, but coming up in carpentry, working for independent contractors you're often not on the books or paid as a subcontract yourself. So ya your boss can rip you off and does.

I don't know about Canada, but the labor laws here are so tight that a company cannot claim someone as a sub-contractor if they don't meet a lot of strict requirements.

I do have my own company and am a sub-contractor on anything I do. However, there are projects I have worked on where the companies are so gun-shy of these laws that they force me to function as a W2 employee. These requirements are so tight and so strict, that there are times that they force my company to be treated as though I was an employee, even though I don't want that to be the case.

Any company that is caught claiming an employee as a sub-contractor pays massive fines and criminal action. The penalties are so severe that many companies go to the opposite extreme and won't even let legitimate sub-contractors operate as sub-contractors. In order to get the project, you have to be listed as a W2 employee, and all the other laws kick in at the same time.

Edit: I have a project coming up where I am clearly a private consultant with his own business. I'm even isolated by one other business between me and the client. Technically, my client is this middle business, and they are the ones to invoice the final client. Because this project involves on-site work at the client facility, the final client is so gun-shy of these laws, that they are forcing me to change my contract with the middle company to put me on the books and work as a W2 employee.

 

[farms100]

when i was doing work in new brunswick  CA. they estimate that over 1/3 of the economy was working off books/under the table.

 

[festooltim]

Unions are the same as big Corporations. They are people, your neighbors and relatives they can be good honest people or they could be bad. I think know matter what you do in life surround yourself with good people. Because life is to short to work with jerks. Maybe that's why I work alone. HA HA!!

 

[jacko9]

My youngest son is a Union Carpenter in San Francisco Local 22 and has been steadily employed for last 23 years.  He currently is a foreman with Brady Company and runs a crew of 20-30 guys in major commercial construction jobs.  It is quite common to fire a journeyman that can't cut it because of quality of work or for being lazy.

I worked for a National Laboratory and didn't come into contact with unions until my son became a carpenter.  I can say that after his apprenticeship, he did have skills that most home building carpenters will never have.

In the San Francisco Bay area my son works year round and never takes vacation and compared to a "employee carpenter" that works for Home Building Companies, my son earns roughly 4x what they make.

I'm sure that if he were to branch out into a Contracting Business he could probably do better after establishing a business.

I have to say that reading comments above, "Politics are part of this discussion".

Jack 

 

[L.J]

Back in my earlier days, I was in a couple different unions for several different positions. I soon came to realize that those unions tended to hurt self-achieving employees instead of helping them. In an effort to equalize everyone, they tend to penalize those that should otherwise excel. In every union I was in, I saw that advancement was awarded (by contract) solely on the basis of tenure and not on the basis of achievement. As a result, they tended to neutralize the desire for achievement by the individual.

A couple of these companies even had various positions where union membership was required and not required. The difference between pay and benefits was negligible between them.

Speaking solely from personal experience, I've been hurt by unions more than I've been helped by them. As a result, I would never voluntarily join one for any position where I was given a choice.

There was one company where I had worked my way into a very nice position. I was good at what I did and had very positive comments from the other departments I served. Then one day, another person changed from the night shift to my shift, and he said, "I want that position!" Well, because he had a mere 2 weeks seniority over me, it was automatically given to him under union contract. Management knew I was better at the job, but the contract prevailed, and I was forced to give up my position for a mere 2 week seniority.

This sounds like a company union and not a true one.

 

[L.J]

Carpenter Unions ***Please keep politics out***


The irony of this thread title is that you'll never get politics out of the union, it's a highly politicized environment. I'll never forget the day I got dragged over the coals for doing too good of a job because it was making everyone else look bad, it was then I knew the union workplace was not for me. I seek excellence not mediocrity, advancement through skill and merit not connections and seniority. I want to negotiate directly with my employer, don't need to pay anyone monthly dues to do that for me. I aim much higher in life than any union could ever offer.

I've heard this line so many times by nonunion/anti-union workers and in 20 years have never heard this said to myself or anyone else.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

This sounds like a company union and not a true one.

All unions are company unions. There is no such thing as a non-company union. You cannot have a contract without having at least 2 parties, and they must both (all) agree to partake in that contract.

You could have 10,000 workers decide to band together and say, "we're going to form a union", and it would still be meaningless until you have contracts with each and every employer that hires these 10,000 workers.

You're confusing a brotherhood of unions with a single union contract. The brotherhood acts as one group, and that gives them power, but they still have to contract with each company separately. Any single company has the right to refuse to sign a union contract, and that is where you get wildcat strikes. That is a strike without a written contract.

A union is nothing more than a contract between a group of employees and a company. Larger unions are nothing more than larger groups and more companies. Regardless what size they are, it is still nothing more than a collaborative contract between several groups.

 

[Stokely]

I've been a steward and a member of a great union. I had health care and bennys when I needed them. I worked hard, in fact, just as hard as everyone else. I take some offense to those who say union workers are lazy. Individual stories or anecdotes don't accurately portray the issue. We all have stories, and certainly some unions are Better than others, but lets not pretend we know the entirety of the situation. I could tell stories about contractors screwing the pooch, but I won't.

 

[dinkjs]

I think my topic of conversation has gone its distance.  I believe its time to lock this thread......PLEASE????????

 

[jacko9]

I think my topic of conversation has gone its distance.  I believe its time to lock this thread......PLEASE????????

Yes, and I agree with Stokely but the political has bled into this discussion.

Jack