carpentry business

[DanielOB]

well, at least try to avoid answer as : depend...
- want to quit GM and to move to carpentry
- top notch mechanical enginnering skills
- good mathematician
- good with all software the business will ask: 3Dim design of any cabinet or similar
excel, database, can make many programs ...
- got own space so no renting of any kind will come on the way
- have all tools (2xoF1400 + 2xcarvexBat + mafell kss400 circ.saw + bosch table saw + feinBat +...

- located North-Ontario (well it is what is) west of Sudbury
- want to make $1000 cd profit after tax

QQQ: what is the best to do in that area and is $$$ requirement realistic
stupid question, but never know who is around

 

[roblg3]

The amount of money that you make will be tied to your ability to actually service the customer!  Can you listen to what someone who, has no clue what they really want, is telling you what they want, and then decipher what it ACTUALLY is that they want?  If you have patience, attention to detail and the ability to suck up not getting what your time is worth as you hone your skills anything is possible.  Top notch workmanship is pointless unless they'll pay for it.  You MUST deliver the product they want NOT the one they say they want.  That's the trick

 

[fshanno]

It seems like you could put a CNC router to work.  It's a natural for you.  Almost child's play in fact.  You've got the space and you've got the smarts.

 

[wow]

roblg3's comments reminded me of this, which you've probably seen:

[attachimg=1]

 

[Grasshopper]

To the OP:

I don't know anything about the carpentry business, but I do work for myself.  In my businesses, we interact with a lot of other businesses and see how they operate.

You list a lot of skills which seem like they could serve you well in terms of completing projects, etc.  The area I see that separates the good businesses from the ones that struggle is people skills, and the ability to assess and manage expectations.

The ability to "sell yourself" is also pretty important whether you are a dentist, a freelance software designer, or a carpenter.  Interestingly enough, regarding dentists, id suspect most patients are drawn to "bedside manner" more than credentials.  Certainly you need to be competent and deliver a product that doesn't have obvious flaws and satisfies the client, but the process/interaction with clients goes a very long way.  Then listening to the client and being able to draw out their expectations is critical.  If that is not your skill set, you can hire it out or find a partner that compliments you.

Whenever I hear someone that wants to go and start a business, particularly one that is very different than what they have trained to do, I am compelled to say the grass isn't always greener.

I'd imagine being a professional carpenter brings a whole new slew of frustrations (likely most being client centered).  I'll admit, I've had daydreams about working with my hands…Festool Style.  I'd have to charge about $0.50/hour and I'd still be too expensive with how long I take to complete projects.  My hats off to those of you who have all the skills to market yourselves, complete a project with quality and speed enough to make a good living!

Good luck with your pursuit. 

 

[MaineShop]

A couple things to think about. Just some points to bear in mind and yes I pay my bills with my carpentry which is not what I went to college for.

The market for work will vary drastically from region to region and will move up and down so it is very hard to say what the market will be like in your area in 6 months to a year.

This business is feast to famine. One month you may have a big kitchen or a whole new house and have lots of capital to work with and be collecting a big check. However the next month you may not have work for a couple weeks so you need to plan for that. This industry is rarely on a weekly pay schedule and payment and timeframe can change from job to job.

If work is slow your rate may depend greatly on how bad you need work. You can set a price of what you need to make but it won't matter if no one will hire you at it.

I cannot stress enough that time is money. To turn a profit on any project be it framing a new house or building a custom kitchen you need to complete the project quickly. That does not mean you can cut corners, the more experience you get the more tricks you pick up and the faster you can complete projects, that naturally translates to a better profit margin. For that same reason you should not expect to see great returns right away.

My area is very rural and large renovation projects that supply a lot of the work are very seasonal. Look into what the industry is like in your area.

If you are at all serious about this you really need to find out what your market is like from someone who works in your area. Better yet find someone to sub under in your area. Pick someone who's work you admire and pick their brain, see if they have any large projects coming up and could use another hand. Are you open to working under someone? You will probably start at the bottom in
terms of pay and pecking order.

Carpentry is like any other career, walking into it you are starting at square one. You are not going to be a general contractor with some power tools, how about staging? insurance? infrastructure? rolodex full of subs and tradesmen, experience and past work. If you meet with a client for a simple built in closet job, and they ask about adding some lighting, do you have an electrician? Or are you going to try and wire the light yourself illegally and be liable when the house burns down or worse?

Just trying to point out the many potential pitfalls.

If you think you wanna brave it and hang up your shingle then best of luck. I did when I decided it was what I wanted to do. But there were a lot of crappy jobs and a steep learning curve those first 3 or 10 years or so.

 

[WastedP]

...I pay my bills with my carpentry which is not what I went to college for.

There always seems to be a difference between what someone is good at and what the world wants to pay them to do.

To the original poster, are you in a position to take a job with someone else for a while to get a feel for the ebb and flow of the business?  Working for someone else gives you an opportunity to see how someone else does it, and gives you a chance to develop a reputation and/or a portfolio.  Since there isn't a whole lot of valid credentialing in the woodworking marketplace, any guy with tools and a truck (or minivan, or hatchback) can say he's a carpenter, be low bid, and get jobs.  Reputation, past work, brings me most of my new work.  Not a sign, or a yellow pages ad, or a website.

Also, there's a big difference between woodworking and running a woodworking business.  I know guys that can figure out all kinds of difficult construction math, but as soon as a number has a dollar sign in front of it, their math skills evaporate.  They may lose money on their jobs, but they think they'll make it up in volume.  There is a big difference between being busy and being profitable.  For some guys I know, working for someone else exclusively insulates them from running a business and allows them to concentrate on the craft.  They don't make as much off of their work, but they don't have to spend nights and weekends doing estimates and invoices.

 

[tiralie]

I think MainShop said it well and Main is probably very similar economically in terms of the Sudbury market.

- want to make $1000 cd profit after tax

Per month, per year? What is your timeline? Do you have any customers, can you make some assumptions about the potential for that profit?

You really need to think about this as a start-up and start-ups require investment in both time and money, you aren't going to make any money until you figure out who your customers are or what kind of customers you want.
Expect to be in the hole for a while.
You can apply the well documented  principles and processes (agile, customer acquisition etc.) that are employed in the high tech start up environment to a carpentry business. Relationships, network and reputation are important to all business, they are probably more important to a business that serves a local market vs. a global market.

QQQ: what is the best to do in that area and is $$$ requirement realistic

You really need to talk to some folks in your area that are in the business, build some relationships understand what is needed and what will customers pay for. As WastedP says, get a job (or work for free) with someone doing something you think you would like to do. Remember you are trying to figure out what the market wants and will pay for.

stupid question, but never know who is around

There are many questions that (un-informed) people ask but there are no stupid questions. Toyota production has used Five whys to uncover root cause and it can be applied to a start-up.

I am happy to help any way I can.

Tim

Tim

 

[smartcarpie]

Some good points being made here by experienced hands.

I've been self employed for twelve years now and charge per hour nearly what the average electrician around here gets. I had to realize that for all the stress, worry and risk, it wasn't worth it to me to do it for less. I have taken some crappy jobs to make ends meet at points, and they are a good reminder of why I need to stay focused on the work I want.

This is still a tough market in the US, however after years of economic slump it appears that many who did good work have disappeared as they didn't have the financial sense to know how much to charge or when to slow down the cash bleed. In the last boom, customers seemed to be throwing money out, and my partners and I were booked out for a year or two at a time. We still keep busy but nothing is for sure any more until the check is in the bank.

You need to know what you bring to the table. I said I charge a high price. Am I the best carpenter around?  Doubt it. But I make a huge effort to take excellent care of the customer. Build trust fast, keep their house clean clean clean. I am very accommodating of individuals needs and wants when approaching a job. Communication is key. Little things go a long way. If a package hits the door step while I am there, I will stop for a minute to bring it to the kitchen table and out of the rain. Picking up a coffee, maybe my customer wants one too. 

Those little extras seems crazy sometimes, but most of our big customers become friends and allies. We have been invited to weddings, sailed on fancy boats, and sat thru many a fine dinner with them both during the course of a job and for years after. They come to our holiday parties and we go to theirs when we can. I got an invitation in the mail yesterday to attend a yacht christening later this month.

Yes, most of these folks have money. We learned to align ourselves with high end customers, as they are less worried about the economy and more with finding someone they trust in their home. You need to have solutions for their problems before they even figure out that there could be a problem.

In twelve years I don't think I have written more than two or three bids. I generally won't do it, only emphasize what I can provide. Unless you are very seasoned, specialized and know your times and numbers, it can be very easy to end up working for lunch money. Too often bidding seems a race to the bottom. (Just my experience)And most stop the vetting process there if they are really a serious buyer. Everything is hourly, maybe a ballpark is provided if desired. While we don't necessarily provide a totally unique product, we can do it in a unique way that the customer will truly enjoy and appreciate. 

These are not slick hard sell tactics but just being, open, honest and yourself.

Oh, and as you learn, be prepared to get screwed. Veteran customers know how to really work a new contractor. As do generals. I have been stiffed once by a general, so I mostly just stick to the homeowner now.

And be prepared for setbacks. If you damage something you better be prepared to pay for it.

It's not a game for everyone, and while I love what I do, there are many days when I think "didn't this used to be fun?"

 

[DanielOB]

So helpful from all of you ...

As I know, any hour of work need at least 3 hour (in my carpentry and much more) of selling to complete it all. And any startup need min $100,000 dead on hand.
After all above I think now that the only business TODAY and tomorrow that will make good and sure return is to make a complete house and sell it. Having all that 3D-CAD computer programs, I think to make a house with twisted roofs and walls (attractive) will be the best bet. Making it myself I can sell it for even $200,000. All materials will not go above $70,000 foundation concrete included (crawl space). A house is just a most basic need for human, the same as food.
That will be probably the business possible...

Thank to you all

 

[Grasshopper]

I'm not sure the first professional project you'd want to take on is a spec new construction home.  Many things can go wrong if you don't get things just right.

Jumping from carpentry, to a homebuilder is very different.  If you want to get into real estate, perhaps you may consider rehabbing a home that could use some remodel and sell.

Others may chime in, but you seem to be aiming pretty high for your first foray into professional construction.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I know lots of people that thought building spec houses was easy, some never even got the first one done.

 

[smartcarpie]

Around here the builders were the first ones to go when the economy tanked. Unless you have a customer paying the freight as you go, holding the bag on a new build is risky business for a new builder.

 

[Brent Taylor]

I have been a builder/remodeler since the late 70's. I would tell you to take it slow & learn the business. It's hard & unforgiving & you can lose your butt in a heartbeat. I was also a Building Inspector & saw alot of other go under.Good Luck, take it slow & cover your butt with paper.

 

[Paul G]

So helpful from all of you ...

As I know, any hour of work need at least 3 hour (in my carpentry and much more) of selling to complete it all. And any startup need min $100,000 dead on hand.
After all above I think now that the only business TODAY and tomorrow that will make good and sure return is to make a complete house and sell it. Having all that 3D-CAD computer programs, I think to make a house with twisted roofs and walls (attractive) will be the best bet. Making it myself I can sell it for even $200,000. All materials will not go above $70,000 foundation concrete included (crawl space). A house is just a most basic need for human, the same as food.
That will be probably the business possible...

Thank to you all

I don't know costs in your area, but around here, $70k would barely cover the permits and fees in some nearby counties. Even without that cost you also have to account for the land ($50-100k minimum in these parts for a small lot in an existing residential area assuming utilities are already to the property as well), and still ignoring that I'd be hard pressed to build a house over 1,500 sq ft for $70,000 materials, not to mention there will be labor I'm just not capable of doing myself or are beyond a one man operation, and even by myself I'll have thousands in tool rentals for things that are plain dumb to buy at several thousand bucks (and more) each just to use a few days every few years. And then we're assuming you know all the codes and do everything well (grading, foundations, framing, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, drywall, windows, siding, cabinetry, finish carpentry, roofing, insulation, tile, granite, flooring, paint, siding, hardscaping, landscaping etc), and that you have necessary licensing that may be required like engineering of the plans or energy audits, and that the housing market doesn't tank while you're busy building (which will take a few years doing yourself assuming you don't get sick or injured). Hopefully you've got some other income source or savings pot to keep you afloat while building and to cover the unknown like your vehicle needing repair, tools breaking, the do-overs because you FUBARed per the codes that you're learning for the first time, etc. Also have you accounted for bonding and insurance that may be required? And are you so sure the market will be receptive to your custom home designs?

Also someone else asked for clarification but no response, you said you "want to make $1000 cd profit after tax". Is that per day, week, month, year? And how soon do you expect to be generating that income?

It seems you haven't thought this through or need to investigate a lot more info in your area. Maybe you have built houses before and know all the ropes, I don't know, but per the provided info we simply know you work in the automotive industry, are good at engineering and math, are good with computers, have some tools, have space for a shop, your location and that's about it. Maybe there's a lot more to your story that's relevant here but we just don't know.

For perspective, I don't do this for a living per se, I do fix and renovate my rental properties and my own home. I'd probably go broke trying to sell my services, I'm too meticulous, take too much time, and tend to over-engineer. Not to mention I'm prone to joint injuries and have to take time off which would basically tick off even the most understanding client. Similarly I'd go broke building houses, I'm too picky and too much of a gamble trying to sell a 'quality' house at a 50-100% upcharge for the same size house in hopes I make a profit.

 

[DanielOB]

I already have a land in the city
Carpentry business is out for me
House building is all I now want

House sell/buy is down here in Canada/Ontario too, BUT
Houses still sells just at slower rate. The whole problem with houses business is the price of a house.
That is a deal breaker in so many cases.
One have to have a house, or to rent apartment, or to kill himself.

To put a new house on market with value $380,000 ++++... with a tag $200,000 is THE idea. It will go over night. WHY???

The answer is in cost difference and that ++++
What is +++++?    Artistical shape of the house and its roof = uniquiness, nice, extreme workmanship, things not possible to find in mass production (I know it)

So how to make such a house. After 3 dimensional (this not photoshop like, but real 3 Dim with a software that cost c.$100,000) project is done print all technical drawings. Now precutt nearly all (jigs and templates included) and assembly it with jointers in organized manner. This way it will take no more than 5 months to complete the work. No external contractor is involved.

I know about making foundation, concrete, and that forms has to be oiled, ....
I know how to lay rebars
I know codes involved in making a house
I know how to make electrical network and lighting too
I know to solder and how to choose pipes for plumping
I know how to install water heater
I know nailing code
I have nearly all tools (even auger bought from Home Depot, if need for ...)
I know how to make drive way
I know how to schedule trucks concrete mixers

Building permit is in average $1 per square ft in Ontario.

Just sometimes will need some additional muscles and the cost will not be much.

So now if anyone is buying a house he will scratch his head, and they are many. Where in whole Canada one can buy high-end quality house for that money.

The house will be with crawl space, 1000 sq.ft at foundation and attic with several separated rooms and bathroom too,... So small property tax is involved.

The foundation is $500 c.meter. All expenses (foundation included), 2015, will not exceed $70,000, my own labor.

ALSO who can compete me making such artistic high-end quality house (beside Mechanical and Electrical Faculty I have and academy of Art in background) for my price. And if need I can go and lower with price. I would like to learn it.

The idea was to make $1000 per month, which is enough to me, but there is no warranty for it in carpentry. Furniture or any similar thing are not a must to buy as a house IS. Nice furniture is expensive.

Why now I pull it all. Just because I have to eat and NO warranty in ANY business today, it all getting worst, and I think this one is the best.

 

[Paul G]

If the same sq ft house comps would sell for $380,000 why on earth would you sell for $200,000???? 

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Let me know how it pans out. :

 

[DanielOB]

To make sure MY will go, and will go fast. AND $100000++ profit in 5 months work is not that bad.

 

[Grasshopper]

Good luck man.  In my back yard a $200,000 house would sell fast as well.  Problem is, after tap fees, and other expenses, your hard lot costs push $70,000-$100,000.  That is just to have a permit ready site.  Now building on the lot you are lucky to build a house for under $100/sf or so.  You'd be into that house for $200,000++ for a 1,000sf house.  Where I live, the house would need to be larger, and cost per foot is higher for a smaller house.  Don't forget about fees to sell the house too. 

I'm skeptical you can deliver a new house in Canada for $200,000 and make money. 

You have swung pretty fast from saying you wanted to be a carpenter, to now a homebuilder.  My day job deals with a lot of commercial real estate developers, homebuilders etc.  I can say that it is not as easy as you describe.  Knowing the codes is only a fraction of what it takes.

Good luck with your venture.