Carvex 420 first impressions

[ajones]

Jan

I think the blade guide set up time should be part of the test and to be fair do you have access to a corded machine?

 

[JGVilla]

im not sure about bias etc but maybe next time you could turn the saw the other way so we can see the settings

Good suggestion Alan. Maybe better to make two videos at the same time. One on each side of the Machine being tested. Thanks

Jan,

Here's the video for Festool's recommended blade guide setting.

Thanks for the video Ken. The guy who set up the Carvex 420 owns a Festool PS300 Trion for a couple of years now and is very happy with it.
I must admit that we only received the Carvex 420 one day before the tests.
We have to pay special attention to the setup differences between the Festool PS300/Protool JSP120  and the Carvex 420.

JMBFestool: Very good suggestions. I'll try to have them all in the new tests (with video)

Festoolfootstool: Can do, will probably be something like "time to change and setup a saw blade"

Thanks for the feedback

-Jan-

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Jan, can I assume from your comments that you're associated with this website? In your first post you said "they" performed tests and in subsequent posts you said "we".

I see that there are a handful of Festool abrasives and saw blades but a very large offering of Mafell products on the site. Are the proprietors of the site dealers for Festool and/or Mafell? I think it's important to disclose this information. I do not see this company listed as a Festool dealer but they do appear to be a Mafell dealer.

My intention is only to seek that the Carvex is represented fairly and equally. If that's done and its not the better tool, so be it.

Thanks.

 

[JGVilla]

Shane,

You are right in your observation that the tests are facilitated by a Mafell dealer.
However the testers are all independent participants with no link/ties or whatever to the provider.
I just buy Mafell gear from him occasionally for the standard retail price.

We are heavy machine users so we were invited to participate.
As far as I know I'm the only one with a Mafell P1cc, the other guy has a Festool PS300 and the third one a Bosch (I think)
But in order to be as unbiased as possible we can include in report what equipment we use for our personal use.

I sincerely hope that our first test runs of the Carvex 420 were due to test faults, not the machine.
If so, we will clearly say so and the reference to the videos will then be destroyed.

From my personal point of view I just like to figure out what are the cons and pros of these machines
and this is a good opportunity.

Regards

-Jan-

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

I appreciate your honesty. One additional question... Are you or anyone associated with the articles, videos or tests being compensated in any way whether monetary, discounts, products or otherwise?

I just know that I have personally made that cut many times with various versions of the Carvex without issues and I'm no professional tool user.  [wink] I will be looking for the updates. Thanks.

Edit: in the spirit of full disclosure, I will be editing the original post to annotate this was sponsored by a Mafell dealer. The same would be, and has been, required of Festool related reviews on this site to the best of our ability.

 

[Rembo72]

Hi Shane, I'm another tester that will take tart in this test. To make sure we use the machines well I have been in contact with Festool Netherlands today and they are prepared to introduce the machine to me before the test in order to make sure we handle it well and make best use of it's qualities. This is much about finding out what capabilities all the machines have and not as promotion for whatever brand.

Remco

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Remco, welcome to the forum. I'm glad you're in touch with Festool Netherlands since I've already contacted them about this. Hopefully, they will be able to assist you.

Would you address my question regarding compensation for the testers?

Thanks,
Shane

 

[JGVilla]

I appreciate your honesty. One additional question... Are you or anyone associated with the articles, videos or tests being compensated in any way whether monetary, discounts, products or otherwise?

I just know that I have personally made that cut many times with various versions of the Carvex without issues and I'm no professional tool user.  [wink] I will be looking for the updates. Thanks.

Edit: in the spirit of full disclosure, I will be editing the original post to annotate this was sponsored by a Mafell dealer. The same would be, and has been, required of Festool related reviews on this site to the best of our ability.

Shane,

As far as I know we are not compensated in anyway for doing these tests (at least I'm not),
and we pay regular prices for the equipment we purchase for our own goal.
We do the tests on Saturdays and we are provided with the test equipment and material (wood, saw blades, etc).
Food and drinks are free during testing.

I enjoy my retirement as airline captain and one of my hobbies is, you guessed it right: woodworking tools.
After the next test run,I would be more than pleased to update the initial test if results justify an update.

I think your remark to the original post is more than fair.

Regards

-Jan-

 

[Rembo72]

Shane, unfortunately no other compensation than having a nice day. We're invited because we all share the same passion for tools and have a large variety of tools to compare the tested tools with. If you take into consideration that we all have to drive over and that this testing will take us a long day this is actually costing us money rather than being compensated.

Food and drinks are free during the day and we close of with a dinner paid by the dealer. Oow yeah, in the previous test on circular saws I was allowed to keep the hearing protection, the pencil and the orange shirt. 

I hope to be with Festool in the Netherlands this thursday to get to hear all the inns and outs. I've seen other movies at Youtube on the Carvex 420 that would make me suspicious on the movie with the bended saw-blades from the first testing day, there must be somthing wrong. I am however quit sure that the machine was adjusted properly as the guy who did this is very careful in setting his tools right before he uses them, he actually is an engineer. I'm curious to see what will happen myself, I was not there first testing day.

I've been visiting this forum for a while now you got my first posts to. Keep up the good work in the wonderful Festool world.

Remco

 

[JGVilla]

Well, this is going to be a busy week. Lots of preparations for next Saturday's tests:
- Contact with Festool Netherlands for complete setup and hands-on instruction.
- Setting up an extensive video recording gig.
- Preparing the new tests.

Below a copy of the mail I received from our "chief tester" with the proposed program:

What we will do next Saturday are repeated try-outs with the Festool PS420, the Protool JSP120, Mafell P1cc,
the Bosch GST140 and the Makita 4351. And I think I will bring my trusted and much used Festool PS300 with me again as well.
Just because I like and trust it.

1.  Material to cut: same 100x200 Finnish pine beam, cross cut

2.  Saws blades to be used: Festool S145/4 on all machines

3.  We will show – for the Festool PS420, the Protool JSP120 and my Festool PS300
.      that we did adjust the guidance claws properly: saw in lowest position, pendulum knob in highest position,
.      show that blade can move freely between claws and that the space between claws and blade is minimal – just a minute gap.

4.  We will show on the movie the settings on all jigsaws (pendulum and speed settings)

5.  We will show that the blade sticks out of the wood sufficiently in the highest position.
.      Note that the Mafell indeed has a higher reach with the blade so it sticks out further below the beam.
.      But its more interesting to compare the differences between the PS420 and the PS300 –or if you are after new tools–
.      the differences between the Protool JSP120 (PS300 in a new jacket) and the Festool PS420.
.      We did the test as well with my old trusted, used, PS300, same blade, same claw adjustment, pendulum fully on.
.      The Festool PS300 did get through the 100x200 without the blade being red hot nor bended.

6.  And in the end we will show the cut results:
.    How clean is the cut and how much does it differ from 90 degrees.
.    We’ll measure it with the CMT DAF (Digital Angle Finder).

Personal note: yes, I am quite a Festool addict as well.
Since the early 90's I have collected –bit by bit– quite some Festool tools. And I am using them a lot.
So, if I would be put aside as a Festool hater: the opposite is quite true.
But more than a Festool addict I am really an addict of high quality woodworking tools.
There is only one thing that I would not like at all: getting beautiful promises through marketing which do not solidify in reality.
Regardless of the brand.

So far, starting this post has significantly contributed to the test program.
The feedback will hopefully result in a good review with all aspects covered and,
based on reactions so far, their is apparently quite some interest.

I must congratulate FestoolUSA for their willingness to continue this post, even with the risks involved for them.
To my knowledge, worldwide this is one of only a few sites where you can find dedicated information/feedback from the users,
which -in my opinion- is very much needed.

-Jan-

 

[Rian]

Hi guy's,
Although I have been reading the FOG comments for a couple of years now, I have never felt the urge to join the group. That was till now... (I was one of the testers testing the 5 machines..)

Let me start by saying that I love my festool products. Their not cheap, but you get what you pay for. I don’t have a shop, just a dedicated room where I do my work, so dust collection is a must for me. That’s why I started buying Festool products.

Some (fes)tools in my collection are the CXS Set, MFT/3, MFT/3 Kapex, Domino DF 500 Q-Set, Rotex150 set, two Rotex90sets, HL850E Planer, TS55 Plunge Cut Saw and off course CT 26 E Dust Extractor. I love my festool products and thus far I have never been disappointed with my Festool products.

Last Saturday was kind of a shock to me. I didn’t expect a Festool product to be so able to disappoint me as much as the Carvex II PS 420 did. It was just shocking.
I hope the next test (next Saturday) will prove us all wrong, maybe we just had a defective-product (it happens).. The results were Festool-unworthy, that’s why the Carvex PS 420 will get a re-match (and yes, we will be testing all 5 machines again).
Hopefully the second Carvex PS 420 (yes, we bought a second one just to be sure) will have better results..

Just to be clear, I have no affiliation to Mafell of Gereedschappro what so ever.  I’m just a customer who likes quality tools. That was my main reason to participate in the test, I wanted to see how these quality products compare to each other.
I did not get paid, however I was allowed to keep a pencil, hearing protection (peltor 3M optime III, really nice), and an orange shirt.
That’s not much “compensation” for driving 2 hours to the location and testing a whole day..
I didn’t participate because I wanted a reward/compensation, I participated because I enjoy woodworking and especially woodworking with quality tools. And where else do you get the opportunity to test 5 different manufacturers tools??

Rian

P.S.
@Reiska: We did use the pendulum action on the max setting during the cut (as you could see at the end). We should have made the cuts the other way around, so you could see the settings during the cut..
@Shane: The Festool was set to A (automatic), so that it should get into the best gear for the job (that's the main reason for being automatic isn't it?). And yes, with the festool at 3800 vs mafell’s 3000 you would expect the festool to be the faster machine... That’s exactly why the results where so surprising.

 

[Rembo72]

@Shane: The Festool was set to A (automatic), so that it should get into the best gear for the job (that's the main reason for being automatic isn't it?). And yes, with the festool at 3800 vs mafell’s 3000 you would expect the festool to be the faster machine... That’s exactly why the results where so surprising.

Guys, what you have to realize is that the Carvex 420 takes 550 watts and the Mafell 900 watts. You can use any speed you want if there's not enough power you will not get a speedy cut. To be honest? the speed makes sence but a square clean cut is at least as important.

 

[peter halle]

I look forward to your next video test.

I would also offer that while cutting a very thick piece of timber might be a good torture test or extreme test, whereas this is the Internet and available to everyone in the world, the usage for this tool is probably more skewed to use in thinner material.  You might want to consider adding those types of your tests in your video in addition to your others.

It might not be as dramatic, but that information might be more useful to more people in more areas.

Just a thought.

Peter

 

[peter halle]

Sorry, but I have one other suggestion for you.  Whereas you are spending time to make the tests and the video to be as credible and as professional as possible, you might want to consider the titles, subtitles, and captions that are added in post production of your video.  A caption that comes across as being anything other than factual either thru the wording or even the use of certain fonts can impart a question mark in the viewers mind about the purpose or intent of the video and after reading your posts, I would hate for all your efforts to be compromised in any way.

Peter

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

@Shane: The Festool was set to A (automatic), so that it should get into the best gear for the job (that's the main reason for being automatic isn't it?). And yes, with the festool at 3800 vs mafell’s 3000 you would expect the festool to be the faster machine... That’s exactly why the results where so surprising.

Rian, I'd like to welcome you too to the forum. Using the machine in the Automatic speed setting should be fine and is what I'd recommend.

Guys, what you have to realize is that the Carvex 420 takes 550 watts and the Mafell 900 watts. You can use any speed you want if there's not enough power you will not get a speedy cut.

Remco, please note that the Carvex uses a brushless motor which is far more efficient than the brushed motor in the Mafell. The Carvex is actually stronger than the Trion, which has a 720 watt motor. So, power in is not an accurate measure of power out. An example is the measure of an engine's horsepower versus the horsepower measured at the wheels on a vehicle. I think if it were underpowered, it would have stalled or shown signs of overload in the test and it did not.

Anyway, maybe some of our members can offer additional opinions on ways to improve the testing moving forward. I appreciate your willingness to visit the forum and open a dialog.

 

[JGVilla]

I look forward to your next video test.
I would also offer that while cutting a very thick piece of timber might be a good torture test or extreme test, whereas this is the Internet and available to everyone in the world, the usage for this tool is probably more skewed to use in thinner material.  You might want to consider adding those types of your tests in your video in addition to your others. It might not be as dramatic, but that information might be more useful to more people in more areas. Just a thought.
Peter

Peter,

Thank you for joining this discussion. We need all the expertise available.
I fully agree with your above remark. Hopefully we can include some "simpler" tests.
In the conclusions we have to make clear that selecting a machine depends on a lot of variables:
how much money can/will I spend; do I need all the features or can I use a less complicated/lighter machine for my needs;
are the negative points really an item for the use I envision; how about availability, service and repairs, etc, etc.

This brings me to another topic: availability.
The machines we are testing are readily available here in Europe, but how about the USA?
From reading posts at several sites I have the impression that Protool is much less available in your country.
Also a lot of Protool items are not available in the USA. Same -or even more so- goes for Mafell products.
Can anybody enlighten me on this subject? Doesn't make sense to test equipment that is not available.
Testing is also done for the European market but at least if availabilty is limited we should say so in the remarks.

Sorry, but I have one other suggestion for you.  Whereas you are spending time to make the tests and the video to be as credible and as professional as possible, you might want to consider the titles, subtitles, and captions that are added in post production of your video.  A caption that comes across as being anything other than factual either thru the wording or even the use of certain fonts can impart a question mark in the viewers mind about the purpose or intent of the video and after reading your posts, I would hate for all your efforts to be compromised in any way.
Peter

Yes, I think I know what you mean. I did incident/accident investigations and while writing a report we were very keen on deleting "biased" remarks from the writer(s).
Things like "good", bad", or whatever you can imagine were instantly deleted (difficult job to do). If really of value they were transferred to the conclusions with accompanying arguments. If this is what you refer to above I will keep a sharp look-out.

-Jan-

 

[Rembo72]

Remco, please note that the Carvex uses a brushless motor which is far more efficient than the brushed motor in the Mafell. The Carvex is actually stronger than the Trion, which has a 720 watt motor. So, power in is not an accurate measure of power out. An example is the measure of an engine's horsepower versus the horsepower measured at the wheels on a vehicle. I think if it were underpowered, it would have stalled or shown signs of overload in the test and it did not.

Shane, principally what you say is true about brushless motors being more energy efficient compared to brushed motors however in the time I studied electrical engineering I did learn that under heavy loads this difference mainly disappears. The advantage a brushless motor gives is mainly in the bottom region of its power characteristics. Under heavy loads on the motor there will be less of a difference and eventually this difference in efficiency will be completely  eliminated.

Given the characteristics of this test I believe the 900 Watts do make a difference under heavy use conditions.

 

[Rembo72]

I'm with Festool Netherlands however tomorrow morning to get instructions and clarification  on the 420 and I'm happy to announce that they will become co-sponsor by supplying the right saw blades for this test.

 

[peter halle]

Regarding availability ot tools, Protool and Mafell have extremely limited product lines here at the current time.  The Carvex 400 was never introduced here and the 420 is not here at the current time. 

Peter

 

[Benny]

Hi
I generally do not post on forums and enjoy the information that is given on this site and visit often to pick up the latest information.
      Unfortunately it looks like the Carvex debate has been hijacked in an organised way by those from a competitor company/dealer reps/purchasers. The debate via video is not the way to conduct testing on any machine.
    It would be intresting to see the Mafell view point as a business, as this is not a professional way to promote a product. Personally i am disapointed that this has happened.
  The Carvex will be judged as and when it is purchased and the views shared on this forum by users and not from those seeking to discredit a product during the launch period - are they scared i wonder.
  I have used both machines during my work and the video was not representative of the 420.