Carvex 420 first impressions

[Alan m]

welcome benny.
i dont agree with you. these members have shown in the video the carvex underperforming against the main competition the mafell. they let the video speak for itsself . then asked and were given ways to improve the carvex performance. even asking the manufacturers to help .
every sugestion has been taken into account  and those sugestions should show in the next video (done a second time without asking ). i will let the next video speak for itself. hopefully the carvex will perform to its best and we will see a straight fight . (not saying the other wasnt but not every thing was shown) 

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Alan,

I will give them credit for offering to perform the test again and engaging in a dialog.

However, there was no disclosure on their affiliation with the website, that the OP is an admitted proponent of Mafell, and that the tests are being sponsored by Mafell at first. That was misleading at a minimum. I think the right thing to do would be to remove the content from that website and make the video unlisted on YouTube until the test can be conducted again. There's a bit of a credibility issue at this point and some of the titling on the video was uncalled for. Imagine people who see this video and read that article (which does not have a place for comments at the bottom of the page) without the dialog that's taken place here. If someone only saw that video, their opinion would likely be that Carvex is incapable of performing that cut at all. Which isn't true.

If the intent was to be unbiased and fair, I think the manufacturer, regardless of brand, should have been contacted for advice if the results were this adverse to remain fair and impartial. BEFORE any results were posted. It seems there was no intention to reach out to Festool until the comments made here by myself and others.

I personally try to share the merits of Festool rather than fault our competitors, unless someone specifically asks for the benefits versus another tool.

Hopefully, the tests will be redone, previous comments/articles/videos redacted, and some trust can be gained in the claim of being unbiased. Even if that means the Mafell is proven to legitimately be a better performing tool in this application.

Shane

 

[Ken Nagrod]

I think those guys are on the up and up.  They seem to be inexperienced with best practices in making a fair and balanced tool test and video, but they've gotten a lot of good feedback and help from posting on here.  I do think the video should be removed since it doesn't serve any test value other than viewing some possible dramatic blade anomaly.

Hopefully Festool doesn't "force" them to remove it siting defamation.  [scared]

 

[Benny]

Hi
I have used the 420 through the the last week. It a diffrent beast to the 400 (thankfully!!...). I cut alot of finished lacquered panels and use the Festool kit due to the cut quality, TS55 etc. The Festool jigsaw, the 420 version i now use, allows me to cut  clean, with no breakout and good extraction of the M.D.F. The other benefit is cutting circular appertures for access to services in shop fits and this can be done with the 420 without creating a FOG of dust. Can the Mafell be demonstrated to do this in the next review?
 What i am getting at is that manufacturers will place a product in a specific market area same as i sell my skill base to the best market. The 420 for my area is a good fit as i need a machine capable of not just cutting 100+mm, but can perform accurate, clean cuts in a wide range of materials for my industry.
  I still think this is not a professional way to promote a product from a 'respected manufacturer'.
B

 

[nehardwoodfloors]

Im willing to bet that the Bosch gst 140(Js572?) over here in usa takes 2cd behind the Maffell.

I am very impressed thus far with my JS 572EL.

 

[JimB1]

Nothing really to contribute to this but I have to say that overall I am pretty impressed with how this thread is going.

In some places a thread like this could easily have turned into a flame war and been shutdown in a few posts. Here there are just a few questions and ideas on how to improve the testing and show it is a real fair comparison.

It's a nice change over some forums I have been on...
Good job people...  [thumbs up]
-Jim

 

[ART at WORK]

Hallo,

I would also like to ask the testing crew to add a couple of aspects to their Video. As Benny and Peter suggest the Jig saw is used at work for many different tasks.

The circle cutting application in a sheet of 19 mm melamine coated MDF or Chip board or some material commonly used.

I have always bought Jig saws with a light by the blade. It has been an important factor in my decision to buy a saw.
If the testers could just make a comment whether there is a light and if it illuminates the cutting area efficiently.

Dust extraction, does the hose connector function easily, Taking it off putting it on, does it remove the chips successfully.

Some way to show the use of a splitter guard. e.g. Making a cross cut in veneered board with and without the splitter guard.

Im sorry to load you guys up with more tasks and the video will now become a 90 minute epic but these are just some suggestions to show the tools capabilities in a few other areas.

Thanks
Pip

 

[Rembo72]

All,

This morning I have been to the Festool office in the Netherlands to talk to some festool people on the new Carvex and to make sure we use it in the right way. We obviously also did some test work with both the Carvex 420 and the Mafell that was available on site as well. We re did the test with sawing the big block (almost same height, half the width) with the difference that we used longer blades than in the original test that was shown in the first video in this thread. Appearantly the lenght of the saw blade used in the initial test was not the right one, it just cut though the wood but not more than few mm. With Festool 145 FGS blades nearly 4" pine was cut without any issue. The same was done with the Mafell with similar results, squarness of the cut was not impressive in both cuts but the Festool was slightly better square than the Mafell in this cut. Both saws set at max pendulum, Speed setting on the Festool 420 at "A" and the Mafell was not checked for that setting.

Please look at the results below.

Festool Carvex 420 vs Mafell P1 comparison in 4x4 pine

The Festool seems to have a slightly more square cut
The Mafell seems to be slightly faster here

I think saturday doing the real test will give more reliable results, the mystery of the bended and burned saws has been resolved anyway. That was most likely the result of using them beyond their limit.

 

[peter halle]

Unfortunately the video is currently marked private.  If appropriate whoever uploaded the video needs to alter the share settings on YouTube.

Peter

 

[Rembo72]

Peter thanks , done. Should be visible now.

 

[JGVilla]

Hallo,

I would also like to ask the testing crew to add a couple of aspects to their Video. As Benny and Peter suggest the Jig saw is used at work for many different tasks.

The circle cutting application in a sheet of 19 mm melamine coated MDF or Chip board or some material commonly used.

I have always bought Jig saws with a light by the blade. It has been an important factor in my decision to buy a saw.
If the testers could just make a comment whether there is a light and if it illuminates the cutting area efficiently.

Dust extraction, does the hose connector function easily, Taking it off putting it on, does it remove the chips successfully.

Some way to show the use of a splitter guard. e.g. Making a cross cut in veneered board with and without the splitter guard.

Im sorry to load you guys up with more tasks and the video will now become a 90 minute epic but these are just some suggestions to show the tools capabilities in a few other areas.

Thanks
Pip

Ja, most of your requests are already covered in the preliminary (Dutch) report.
To limit the video, maybe we can include (more) photo's.

Circle cutting we have not yet covered. I've put it on the list (it's gonna be a long day testing).

And yes, the Carvex 420 literally shines where it comes to lighting the saw blades (4 strong LED's),
(whereas the Mafell has none . . .  [embarassed]).

For that matter the Carvex 420 has quite some nice new features:
a.o. a hose cord connector which can be flipped from horizontal to vertical and
ON/OFF sliding switches on both sides of the machine (great, I'm left-handed).

-Jan-

 

[tbellemare]

I couldn't agree more with the comments above about comparing more than one task and more than one aspect of these, or any other, jigsaws. Tear out/chip out are very important. I can't really tell much from the latest video here but it appears as if the one on the right has more tear out.

I don't have a Carvex of any kind but if you use a Trion without the splinter guard and in the same way use it with a splinter guard, there will be DRAMATICALLY different results.

The Trion is capable of cutting a lazy scroll in 4" oak virtually perfectly perpendicular. It completely depends on the operator though. People who are good with jigsaws will normally not "rock" the base. People with less experience or skill tend to have a more difficult time keeping the shoe tight to the work.

Additionally, it matters how the saw is set up - blade guide, speed, eccentric motion. It also matters if the operator is "pushing" the saw hard.

In a test like the latest and certainly in the initial test in this thread, I can't tell anything about the set up and can tell little about the operators' actions.

In my opinion, the only fair test of competitive tools and their respective manufacturers is the same way Formula One does it...

Perform a series of side-by-side tests with the tools operated by their manufacturers' appointed "drivers". Do a few tests that represent all aspects of using those tools and repeat them at different trade shows. These shoot-outs would have to be done completely under the scrutiny of the general public at the trade shows. The cumulative results would be available for all to see and would be reported for all to read.

I have seen so many, so called, unbiased tests of various tools by various, unbiased testers and have yet to see any test that gives me any reason to believe it truly is unbiased. Even if the, so called, unbiased tester(s) have the best of intentions, without building pretty exotic testing rigs, they cannot eliminate the variability of human intervention with the tools and sometimes inject ridiculous assumptions that totally skew the results.

Tom

 

[ART at WORK]

Ja, most of your requests are already covered in the preliminary (Dutch) report.
To limit the video, maybe we can include (more) photo's.

Circle cutting we have not yet covered. I've put it on the list (it's gonna be a long day testing).

And yes, the Carvex 420 literally shines where it comes to lighting the saw blades (4 strong LED's),
(whereas the Mafell has none . . .  [embarassed]).

For that matter the Carvex 420 has quite some nice new features:
a.o. a hose connector which can be flipped from horizontal to vertical and
ON/OFF sliding switches on both sides of the machine (great, I'm left-handed).

-Jan-
[/quote]

Thanks Jan,

I wish you the best of luck and hope you have a fun day.
I see your "test" as your own personal opinion of what these tools can do.
Of course your opinions COULD effect sales of one machine over another, so there is a lot of pressure from the business side
that their product "wins".
But as the saying goes - Don't believe any statistics you haven't faked yourself.

I think everyone viewing your report should take in to consideration that it is your personal opinion.
Otherwise I don't think I will feel like sharing info about new products on-line any more.

Please don't forget to have some fun on Saturday
Look forward to you report.

Pip

Also left handed, a factor which effects my choice of tool when checking stuff out.

 

[Alan m]

i agree with art. these reviews have to be seen as opinion . i treat all reviews (especcially ones done by the company them selfs) with a healthy piece of contempt and try to make my own mind up

 

[Starfl0]

PLease take note that the mafell is a "heavy duty" tool.
A smart comparison would be oppose this tool to the Protool JSP 120.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

PLease take note that the mafell is a "heavy duty" tool.
A smart comparison would be oppose this tool to the Protool JSP 120.

I don't see anything that claims that it's "heavy duty", but isn't that just marketing mumbo jumbo anyway? What defines a "heavy duty" jigsaw and makes the Festool any less heavy duty? I think the video below shows that it's heavy duty, at least in my opinion. But, I believe they said they were including a Protool and Makita jigsaw also.

 

[Starfl0]

We don't have the same definition for "heavy duty"... You mean "Strong", I mean just "heavy".
In Europe, a tool classified as "heavy duty" is not necessarily a good thing if you are looking for presision and handling.

The Carvex is versatile, this is why we can compare it to the mafell but they are definitely not made for the same things...
the jigsaws which is closest of the Mafell is orange not green... if not, why is there two product ?

Mafell/Protool : 2,5kg/2,4kg
Festool : 1,9kg

 

[neth27]

Heavy duty to me means something which has plenty of power and can be battered about and still work, a tool you can use at work  and not for a bit of diy.... nothing at all to do with weight.. And im in Europe

John..

 

[goodbuyspeed]

I would just like to say I did have the PS400 which had nothing but problems . And was replaced by the PS 420 which lasted about 3 weeks . I have since ordered the Mafell P1CC . I have lost all faith in Festool Jig saws !!!! So fingers crossed for the Mafell  

 

[Alan m]

Heavy duty to me means something which has plenty of power and can be battered about and still work.... nothing at all to do with weight.. And im in Europe

John..

same here.  heavy duty to me means i should be able to lend it to someone and get it back in one piece