Carvex 420 first impressions

[Rian]

Rian before the link was deleted I had a look and found it all associated with a website selling power tools. I think you have only joined this forum to promote this business and are biast towards other tool brands.
It clearly says on the website that you consider Mafell tools to be superior and that you will offer people money to trade in their festool products in return for Mafell products.
I personally think you are just trying to hijack this forum for your own gain.
I do not think any of the video tests I saw were impartial or remotely practical.
Jog on.......

@ Wooden Lungs : That's not all that strange, being that IT IS SANDERS WEBSITE!
We did the tests FACILITATED BY SANDER!!
People, it isn't that hard.. Try to keep up

 

[promhandicam]

Okay Jay.

That is really useful. Perhaps others might like to add their thoughts.

Peter

Cutting out an oblong hole in a solid oak door for a letter box is something I do use a jigsaw for.

 

[Rembo72]

What about the Mafell vs. Festool Precisio CS 70? Who was chosen the winner of that one?

Hi Shane, that one the Mafell Erika was the winner but I did not consider that a real test as it's only done by one person and it did only include two brands (although you quit easily end up comparing these two brand anyway I have noticed)

How do you explain the math for calculating the Carvex's average score?

I'll go after the math, if it's wrong it needs to be corrected.

 

[Rembo72]

I seem to remember that the first test was in 95 x 95? i may be wrong this thread is so big now i am starting to loose track, and then again in 95 x 95 with the longer blades with success, then in 102 x 200 with failure. Is the 7mm difference just the same as the shorter blade in the first test?

Leigh, the second day tests where run with blad significantly longer, don't have details right here at hand but day two the blade was 145 mm long.

I am going to a tool fair on Sunday and both festool and Mafell will be there so I will try both

Curious to see what you think of it.

 

[promhandicam]

Reguarding the 420 at w12 it cut a super wiggly line in 40mm tops no probs at all, slight defection but not much.

I was also impressed with a hands on test of the 420 especially doing quite a tight radius with a standard blade - not sure Mafell were allowing punters to have a go themselves. Mind you cutting 40mm laminate isn't too much of a problem even for my old bosch! Peters comment about numbers attending them festool stand compared to the mafell could also be explained by the fact that festool had about 10 people on and off the stand compared to only a couple for Mafell. The biggest disappointment was that Festool weren't there in conjunction with a dealer - e.g. Axminster as I know they'd have sold a couple of 420's to the small group from Woodwork UK that I was with.

Steve

 

[Alan m]

can i just say ,  in that test video. i was shocked with the dust levels on the work piece by some of those saws. i would have expected beter from the bosch it is almost new (and should be designed in ) the mafel had a bit more than i would want . the carvex looked alright . the makita ,it want even worth having the dc on it

 

[JGVilla]

Even in the review results, fuzzy math (page 13). How does the Carvex being ranked #4, #2, and #5 result in an average of 4.5?
(4+2+5) / 3 = 3.7

Shane,

Is that all you can say about the review?

I think their is a quote somewhere on the FOG (might also be somewhere else) which states:

"the only statistics I trust, are the ones I manipulated myself".

I think statistics are slightly more than adding up 3 numbers and dividing it by 3.
I for myself do not believe in numbers and rankings. I read reviews. As much as possible.
And then I go to the dealers. Where I live their are at least 5 or 6 major hardware stores within a 20 min. drive.
There I asked for hands-on demonstrations, go home and read more reviews (anything in Dutch, German or English).
Then I make up my mind leaving everything out of what I think is humbug.

Can you show me a review conducted by Sander and his testers where the Mafell (or another brand he sells) did not rank in 1st place, please?

I own, amongst a lot of other Festool equipment, a Festool Domino DF500.
A lovely machine which solves a lot of (connecting) headaches I had for at least 25 years.
Mafell brings out the Mafell DD40 DuoDowel machine.
I have absolutely no intention of buying that machine.
However I like to know as much as possible about its possibilities and qualities.

I know you have perfect connections with Festool Netherlands,
so why don't you suggest to them to hold a comparative test between these two machines.
Festool can facilitate the test and recruit volunteers, leaving Sander out of the equation.
If I can find the time I'm wiling to participate. And at this moment I'm strongly biased in favor of the Festool DF500.

Regards

-Jan-

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Jan, I have more to do with my day that read Sander's review. However, I did take a few minutes and that was quick and easy to check. If my 11-year-old could get the math right, why couldn't he? And what else should be done beyond adding the numbers together and dividing?

The point is, if the math is manipulated, how could I trust the rest?

Most people would read it and not even question it. I did. It was wrong.

I can't WAIT to have an independent conclusion to all of this.

 

[peter halle]

To the testers as both a member and also as a moderator I have to ask two questions:

!.  Is there any other forum on the internet that you are having similar or any dialog like this?

2.  Do you really think that anything further that you post will influence any previously formed thoughts in the minds of the members - no matter what they may be?

Peter

 

[woodguy7]

Its been no secret here how much i disliked the 400.  As i said earlier i received the replacement, a brand new 420 today.  Had a quick play with it tonight & I'm pleased to say all the problems i had with the 400 are not happening with the 420.  I trimmed a small amount, blade half into end grain 30mm oak & virtually no blade deflection.  Cutting through the oak the cut was perfectly square but when i shaved the end it was out of square by a "bee's" wing.  So far it has restored my faith in the Carvex.  When i receive the long blades i will do a small video of the 102mm pine test.  Peter (Hale), if you don't mind i might email it to you as I'm not sure how to post video & you are a computer ninja  [big grin] .

On another matter, Rembo72, you seem like a reasonable chap but Rian, I'm not warming to you at all.  Your replies stink of attitude & you only seem to be here to antagonise people.  This might be something you do on other forums but it is generally not accepted here.  I for one wouldn't be sorry if you stopped posting !
I know i will probably get a little highlighted box & you will start with @woodguy but who really cares.  Boring now !

Woodguy.

 

[Rembo72]

!.  Is there any other forum on the internet that you are having similar or any dialog like this?

Hi Peter, there is a Dutch forum www.woodworking.nl where there where 2 posts on both the circular saw test and the jigsaw test. Just two days ago after some discussion between Sander and the moderator of that forum Sander asked to remove the posts and after carefull consideration the moderator agreed to do so. You can't read it anymore.

What was the nature of your questions on this?

2.  Do you really think that anything further that you post will influence any previously formed thoughts in the minds of the members - no matter what they may be?

I hope so as I would hope so for all other posts made by any other people on this forum. At least for what I have posted all of it is based on facts, not sure what other people may think or do with it but people interested in factual information might want to use it. If not, no offense, we live in a free world.

What's your opinion?

 

[peter halle]

Its been no secret here how much i disliked the 400.  As i said earlier i received the replacement, a brand new 420 today.  Had a quick play with it tonight & I'm pleased to say all the problems i had with the 400 are not happening with the 420.  I trimmed a small amount, blade half into end grain 30mm oak & virtually no blade deflection.  Cutting through the oak the cut was perfectly square but when i shaved the end it was out of square by a "bee's" wing.  So far it has restored my faith in the Carvex.  When i receive the long blades i will do a small video of the 102mm pine test.  Peter (Hale), if you don't mind i might email it to you as I'm not sure how to post video & you are a computer ninja  [big grin] .

On another matter, Rembo72, you seem like a reasonable chap but Rian, I'm not warming to you at all.  Your replies stink of attitude & you only seem to be here to antagonise people.  This might be something you do on other forums but it is generally not accepted here.  I for one wouldn't be sorry if you stopped posting !
I know i will probably get a little highlighted box & you will start with @woodguy but who really cares.  Boring now !

Woodguy.

I will be more than glad to help you and anyone else with posting images and videos about all subjects as always.

Peter

 

[jmbfestool]

Its been no secret here how much i disliked the 400.  As i said earlier i received the replacement, a brand new 420 today.  Had a quick play with it tonight & I'm pleased to say all the problems i had with the 400 are not happening with the 420.  I trimmed a small amount, blade half into end grain 30mm oak & virtually no blade deflection.  Cutting through the oak the cut was perfectly square but when i shaved the end it was out of square by a "bee's" wing.  So far it has restored my faith in the Carvex.  When i receive the long blades i will do a small video of the 102mm pine test.  Peter (Hale), if you don't mind i might email it to you as I'm not sure how to post video & you are a computer ninja  [big grin] .

On another matter, Rembo72, you seem like a reasonable chap but Rian, I'm not warming to you at all.  Your replies stink of attitude & you only seem to be here to antagonise people.  This might be something you do on other forums but it is generally not accepted here.  I for one wouldn't be sorry if you stopped posting !
I know i will probably get a little highlighted box & you will start with @woodguy but who really cares.  Boring now !

Woodguy.

@ woodguy!   Is this going to be your first video!!!!!  Are we going to be seeing a Woodguy test!!   Cant wait!!!

 

[woodguy7]

LOL, it prob won't to be up to your standards but i will give it a bash, oops sorry, i forgot to start with "@JMB"  [doh]

 

[Rembo72]

i forgot to start with "@JMB" 

Lol... I like British humor... and probably well deserved comment  [big grin]

 

[MAK]

LOL, it prob won't to be up to your standards but i will give it a bash, oops sorry, i forgot to start with "@JMB"  [doh]

LOL   Nice one woodguy  [popcorn]  

This thread is cracking me up

 

[hockey_magnet]

Even in the review results, fuzzy math (page 13). How does the Carvex being ranked #4, #2, and #5 result in an average of 4.5?
(4+2+5) / 3 = 3.7

Shane,

Is that all you can say about the review?

I think their is a quote somewhere on the FOG (might also be somewhere else) which states:

"the only statistics I trust, are the ones I manipulated myself".

I think statistics are slightly more than adding up 3 numbers and dividing it by 3.
I for myself do not believe in numbers and rankings. I read reviews. As much as possible.
And then I go to the dealers. Where I live their are at least 5 or 6 major hardware stores within a 20 min. drive.
There I asked for hands-on demonstrations, go home and read more reviews (anything in Dutch, German or English).
Then I make up my mind leaving everything out of what I think is humbug.

Can you show me a review conducted by Sander and his testers where the Mafell (or another brand he sells) did not rank in 1st place, please?

I own, amongst a lot of other Festool equipment, a Festool Domino DF500.
A lovely machine which solves a lot of (connecting) headaches I had for at least 25 years.
Mafell brings out the Mafell DD40 DuoDowel machine.
I have absolutely no intention of buying that machine.
However I like to know as much as possible about its possibilities and qualities.

I know you have perfect connections with Festool Netherlands,
so why don't you suggest to them to hold a comparative test between these two machines.
Festool can facilitate the test and recruit volunteers, leaving Sander out of the equation.
If I can find the time I'm wiling to participate. And at this moment I'm strongly biased in favor of the Festool DF500.

Regards

-Jan-

JGVilla - It appears you have managed to completely avoid answering a very simple question:

 

[Rembo72]

It's ranked by 4 testers, ranked 5 / 5 / 4 / 2.5 so I think correct math should be 4.125

If I'm doing it right now correct outcome should be:

1 - Mafell / 1.0
2 - Protool / 2.125
3 - Bosch / 3.25
4 - Festool Carvex 420 / 4.125
5 - Makita / 4.25

Will verify once more and than have the review amended for this if calculated right. These kind of things obviously should be correct.

 

[hockey_magnet]

@Coen, if you thinks what Sander is doing bad why are you giving signs you do the same?

Haha, Sander Schuiten and his name-changing webshop from Zandvoort...

You start of with haha.... appearantly you as a part time employee from a dealer on the other end of the country knows Sander, what does that say? How do you know him and what have they told you? Have you checked with Sander what his side of the story is?

Ok, let set this straight:

-The guy behind GereedschapPro has some personal problem with Festool

I think it more fair to say that there's an argument between Festool and Sander.

So what do we get: a cabal of him and a few of his buddies do a fake 'test' of three jigsaws; the Mafell, the Trion and the new Carvex.

What make you give me the qualification of Sander's buddy, I'm a customer of many tool shops and where I like a lot of the people in these shop they are not my buddies.

Fake test, why is it fake? Wanna come to my house with your own Carvex 420, I'll get a piece of the wood and we can see what happens. Will you pay for all costs when the blade bends, we get sparks and the blades gets above 200 degrees?

None of us is blind and all of us can see that the blade they use in the 420 is too short. It doesn't even get 1/10 of an inch through the wood.
I don't know if the 420 keeps it's blade a little bit higher or not; perhaps. But it would still be within spec, since the Trion could cut more than spec.
This however does provide them with an easy way to show the Carvex to be 'bad'; that's why they cherry-picked the length of the blade and the thickness of the wood: half an inch less thick and it wouldn't suit their purpose. And let's be honest about that purpose: attracting traffic from those interested in Festool to show them the so called superiority of the Mafell.

Day one the blade was indeed too short, that's why the test was redone with longer blades day 2 with the same results. if you would have read this post completely rather than to shout around you would have known that.

And even if he doesn't get to sell them a Mafell he would already be happy if Festool sells less, since that's his personal obsession.

You seem to know Sander personally as you can think and speak for him, is he your buddy?

And the word 'obsession' also fits the fervor with which all of a sudden a bunch of these freshly created accounts appear on the FOG to in a magic way corroborate the story while hiding details.

Which details are hidden, I guess if FOG can track IP addresses if they want to they could see I already visited FOG as a viewer regularly. I created an account as the topic starter alerted me too it and I responded to false accusations made here.

Now the real kicker comes when you can understand the Dutch voices in the video. Starting at around 0:52 they discuss the following:
Man in background: Maybe the blade is too short
Man holding Carvex: Yes
Third person: It’s as if it’s oscillation is different
Man in background: If it’s too high [cut off by sound of Carvex]

What does that say? Based on this we went over to fesool in waddinxveen to discuss this issue. no hidden speech or whatever, just the raw footage, nothing to hide.

And in the time this topic is open they get what they want: higher page-ranking from Google.

Anyone anywhere can simply see this is a bunch of nonsense: go to your nearest Festool dealer and test the machine. If he doesn't have it in his test corner, call up your local branch of Festool, make an appointment with a representative and he will bring a test machine.

Wanne pick up the glove and do the test yourself?

Conclusion

This so called 'test' or 'comparison' done by GereedschapPro is not independent, not honest, not well-documented and not neutral.

Please explain rather than to accuse us?

It was done with a goal; to attract traffic and to make people not buy a Festool and preferably buy a Mafell.

Probably true, because up front he was convinced of the quality he's selling. If so, what's wrong with that?

Conditions were cherry picked to achieve pre-determined goal, details left out. The conversation in the video makes clear that they know why it fails.

Which details are left out? Again, 2nd day longer blades, we're definitely not stupid.

These colored-glasses 'comparisons' are a curse for those seeking honest information and should be seen as yet another scar on the reputation of this man-with-a-gripe-against-Festool.

All info presented is the testers view on the machines tested, in most cases proven by measurement and movies. Anybody is free to interpret what you see and read.

For full disclosure:
-I am an part-time employee of an official Dutch Festool dealer
-Posting here is part of my hobby, not my work
-I receive no compensation from anyone in any form for posting here although setting the record straight gives a lot of satisfaction!
-At my work I've sold both Trion and Carvex machines. With the Trion I use price, proven technology and solid way of blade changing and with the Carvex I use the extra bases, it's lower weight and stroboscope as main selling points.
-I own a Trion PS300 EBQ, purchased 2009; before becoming an employee at the Festool dealer and before the Carvex was released.

Dear Coen, If setting the record straight gives you a lot of satisfaction, please be rightful in your facts and don't start shouting around if you do not know all of them.

@Rembo - To me Coen sounds sincere whereas YOU sound incredibly defensive, trying to justify your methods. This is a ridiculous statement: "I think it more fair to say that there's an argument between Festool and Sander."

 

[Rembo72]

@hockey_magnet, whats the ridiculous part than? I really don't understand, I only mentioned that the issue is not one sided but an argument between two people / copanies. That's all, not two much wrong in that or is it?

I'm indeed defending what we have done as I feel that's my right to do when people try to very explicitly tell me what I do is incorrect and lying, I can also choose not to explain what I do and why I do it but that would leave me open to being accused of a lot of things that are really not true in this post.

Wil not comment to more because than I'll receive more hassle I'm afraid.