Carvex blades bending backwards
- Thread starter imaginarynumber
- Start date
"I don't trust anyone else's experience except my own, especially on these forums where almost everyone has an agenda. When a Mafell or a Bosch can cut through 4" hard maple or even cedar with minimal deflection you might have a case for losing the adjustment. Like everything nowadays people want easy no skill required, some tools take experience to setup and use properly. The honest truth is most people don't use a jigsaw for finesse and won't take the time to teach themselves proper use and setup. Jam a blade in and hack away. "Anything a Trion can do the latest Bosch or Mafell can do better!" as Larry the Cable Guy would say now that's funny. Honestly have you or anyone else making these remarks actually used a Trion regularly".
John
"In general I'm satisfied with Festool products, have they made some turkeys yes, the first impact type drills and the first generations of Carvex come to mind, no question. Never had an issue with Trion and have read a lot of reviews and read a lot of whining on hear, many to do with Carvex. Most reviews are comparing other tools to Festool not Festool comparing itself to others. I wonder why that is. Most reviews have an agenda. No I haven't tried a Mafell, no place to try one out, don't know anyone that has bought one and why would I want to replace something that is working great. Bosch are a dime a dozen and yes they work well, try that cut I mentioned with one them and see how that works. Its also interesting that most of the people that make negative comments about Festool rarely say anything good about Festool. Now just for the record what makes Mafell, Bosch or any of the others that much more superior to the Trion according to the reviews and people you have talked too? I know for sure Mafell is superior in the price".
John
John, one of the reasons that you've read a lot of "whining" reviews about the Trion should be obvious; it's not really a very good jigsaw, and a lot of users are extremely disappointed with its performance, myself included. I think it's fantastic that you think it works well for you, but you're comparing it to?? Nothing! You say that you've never used a Mafell, but dismiss the tool anyway. How? Why has your imagination more credence than someone else's experience?
When you say "I don't trust anyone else's experience except my own" it assumes that you have experienced other tools, but you go on to state that you not only have not, but you "think" that any other saw could'nt possibly be as good as a Trion WITHOUT EVEN HAVING MADE THE COMPARISON YOURSELF. I'd respectfully suggest that an experienced user's comparison trumps mere conjecture!
Using loaded words like "whining", and accusing other testers of both poor technique AND bias, especially given that these views are if not universal, then certainly widely held, makes me think that the author of these words is guilty of an "agenda" (another loaded word)!
When I was "on the tools" I was having to cut a lot of varied materials. Hardwood scantling & flooring in situ, sheet steel switchboard boxes, plaster, masonite, Hardieflex fiber cement, ceramic tile, ply, chipboard, MDF etc. I jumped on the Trion as soon as it was released as a "pro" saw & superior alternative to my old AEG. What a joke! Having to adjust the saw labouriously by hand each & every time a new material is cut, a blade type changed or even an orbital setting adjusted is just plain stupid! TCT & Diamond coated jigsaw blades don't come cheap, but the effin' saw manages to chew through them like it does through wood! All because of that ridiculous allen-keyed guide adjustment. My employer banned my saw from the worksite because it wasted too much time & money, and as I said before, blades too!
You can't leave it even slightly loose either; the blade wander is woeful. Even in the softest & easiest substrates like 19mm (3/4" for the Luddites) softwood ply! A Bosch saw has a similar guidance setup, but has an instant, semi-automatic intuitive push button guide adjustment. Change blade, push button & saw! I KNOW that my Bosch 135 is a much superior saw to the Trion because I've actually owned & used them both. I also know that the Metabo 135 Plus & 140 Plus Saws are likewise superior saws because I also own & use these saws too. So is my old "DIY" AEG saw, and my 40 year old Elu too. In fact the old ELU is the smoothest cutting and best saw of all for sensitive or delicate materials like 1/8" ply, veneers etc.
I've also used a colleague's Mafell. All other saws are crude by comparison. The combination of zero, none, nada blade guidance, rollers or rocking reciprocation together with their amazing Cunex blade, the rock solid blade wedging & internal eccentric gearing makes for a truly puissant, nonpareil performance! The standard by which all are judged and found wanting. Taking a heavy, tightly radiused cut in a super-hardwood like Gidgee, Ironbark or River Red Gum would convince even the most ardent, blinkered skeptic. It certainly convinced me, & I'm generally not easily impressed.
I appreciate that your Festo saw performs well for you in your native timbers, but given that one spp. you mentioned (Acer) is a fairly soft wood, and the other a softwood, it's hardly surprising. Timber with the "hardness" of Thuja (1.56kN) wouldn't trouble a bread knife! In fact it's one of the world's ten softest timbers according to the Janka Hardness Testing database. Gidgee in contrast has a Janka rating of 19kN, or over 12 times as hard!
Yes, the Mafell is an excellent but expensive saw. It's measureably better than any other. I'd like one, but as I've had 6 & still own 4 it won't happen. Most of my other saws are pretty good too. Except the Festo. That saw was a complete, utter waste of money. I keep it & use it from time to time to remind myself "don't believe the hype".
Yes, I too have an "agenda". To tell the truth, not denigrate other's experiences with unfounded, mendacious supposition!
John
"In general I'm satisfied with Festool products, have they made some turkeys yes, the first impact type drills and the first generations of Carvex come to mind, no question. Never had an issue with Trion and have read a lot of reviews and read a lot of whining on hear, many to do with Carvex. Most reviews are comparing other tools to Festool not Festool comparing itself to others. I wonder why that is. Most reviews have an agenda. No I haven't tried a Mafell, no place to try one out, don't know anyone that has bought one and why would I want to replace something that is working great. Bosch are a dime a dozen and yes they work well, try that cut I mentioned with one them and see how that works. Its also interesting that most of the people that make negative comments about Festool rarely say anything good about Festool. Now just for the record what makes Mafell, Bosch or any of the others that much more superior to the Trion according to the reviews and people you have talked too? I know for sure Mafell is superior in the price".
John
John, one of the reasons that you've read a lot of "whining" reviews about the Trion should be obvious; it's not really a very good jigsaw, and a lot of users are extremely disappointed with its performance, myself included. I think it's fantastic that you think it works well for you, but you're comparing it to?? Nothing! You say that you've never used a Mafell, but dismiss the tool anyway. How? Why has your imagination more credence than someone else's experience?
When you say "I don't trust anyone else's experience except my own" it assumes that you have experienced other tools, but you go on to state that you not only have not, but you "think" that any other saw could'nt possibly be as good as a Trion WITHOUT EVEN HAVING MADE THE COMPARISON YOURSELF. I'd respectfully suggest that an experienced user's comparison trumps mere conjecture!
Using loaded words like "whining", and accusing other testers of both poor technique AND bias, especially given that these views are if not universal, then certainly widely held, makes me think that the author of these words is guilty of an "agenda" (another loaded word)!
When I was "on the tools" I was having to cut a lot of varied materials. Hardwood scantling & flooring in situ, sheet steel switchboard boxes, plaster, masonite, Hardieflex fiber cement, ceramic tile, ply, chipboard, MDF etc. I jumped on the Trion as soon as it was released as a "pro" saw & superior alternative to my old AEG. What a joke! Having to adjust the saw labouriously by hand each & every time a new material is cut, a blade type changed or even an orbital setting adjusted is just plain stupid! TCT & Diamond coated jigsaw blades don't come cheap, but the effin' saw manages to chew through them like it does through wood! All because of that ridiculous allen-keyed guide adjustment. My employer banned my saw from the worksite because it wasted too much time & money, and as I said before, blades too!
You can't leave it even slightly loose either; the blade wander is woeful. Even in the softest & easiest substrates like 19mm (3/4" for the Luddites) softwood ply! A Bosch saw has a similar guidance setup, but has an instant, semi-automatic intuitive push button guide adjustment. Change blade, push button & saw! I KNOW that my Bosch 135 is a much superior saw to the Trion because I've actually owned & used them both. I also know that the Metabo 135 Plus & 140 Plus Saws are likewise superior saws because I also own & use these saws too. So is my old "DIY" AEG saw, and my 40 year old Elu too. In fact the old ELU is the smoothest cutting and best saw of all for sensitive or delicate materials like 1/8" ply, veneers etc.
I've also used a colleague's Mafell. All other saws are crude by comparison. The combination of zero, none, nada blade guidance, rollers or rocking reciprocation together with their amazing Cunex blade, the rock solid blade wedging & internal eccentric gearing makes for a truly puissant, nonpareil performance! The standard by which all are judged and found wanting. Taking a heavy, tightly radiused cut in a super-hardwood like Gidgee, Ironbark or River Red Gum would convince even the most ardent, blinkered skeptic. It certainly convinced me, & I'm generally not easily impressed.
I appreciate that your Festo saw performs well for you in your native timbers, but given that one spp. you mentioned (Acer) is a fairly soft wood, and the other a softwood, it's hardly surprising. Timber with the "hardness" of Thuja (1.56kN) wouldn't trouble a bread knife! In fact it's one of the world's ten softest timbers according to the Janka Hardness Testing database. Gidgee in contrast has a Janka rating of 19kN, or over 12 times as hard!
Yes, the Mafell is an excellent but expensive saw. It's measureably better than any other. I'd like one, but as I've had 6 & still own 4 it won't happen. Most of my other saws are pretty good too. Except the Festo. That saw was a complete, utter waste of money. I keep it & use it from time to time to remind myself "don't believe the hype".
Yes, I too have an "agenda". To tell the truth, not denigrate other's experiences with unfounded, mendacious supposition!
McNally Family
Member
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- Feb 21, 2016
- Messages
- 613
aloysius said:
I think the following represent my favorite threads regarding the choice of jig saws:
http://festoolownersgroup.com/other-tools-accessories/metabo-jigsaw/msg475354/#msg475354
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/mafelll-vs-festool-(-and-others!)/
They both certainly influenced my purchase decision:
=PLFGIE_jCN0y61d5a2ahPDx73UpF5H9_ce
**The Systainer being used now has the newer "T-Lock" latch. The video shows the older classic version.
Edit: Removed the purchase links (not trying to sell the jigsaw, just describe it).
junk731
Member
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2008
- Messages
- 923
aloysius said:
Very well done, its interesting to read and entertaining to. I really like "not denigrate other's experiences with unfounded, mendacious supposition!" But to correct a few things from your interpretation. I said I had not tried the Mafell as its not readily available. I never said I hadn't tried other saws. I also never said that buying other saws was a problem for me. Others had said to junk the saw and get a good one, I only defended the Trion. Also at the time (2007) I did the comparisons when looking for a new saw, the Trion was the best jigsaw available while some would argue for Bosch that's their choice. While we had access to some of the saws in your dissertation other just didn't exist. If you take an afront to me stating that it takes skill to setup a Trion that's your problem. Its also been a thorn for Festool. So where do we stand, 2 people with opposing views and experiences. You obviously think that I'm wrong to like my Trion because its never given me a problem and given you nothing but aggravation. I guess I shouldn't share my experience with others who also have made the decision to buy a Trion and have others defend their positions when they call it a bad purchase. Your turn.
John
[member=7568]imaginarynumber[/member]
My apology for misreading the question. Using the name Carvex for a saw and also a blade by Festool sometimes leads to confusion.
The blade guide adjusting sequence is similar between the Trion and the Carvex.
Here is a video showing Brian Sedgely (Festool Trainer USA) adjusting the TRION:
Again, sorry for not offering the exact sequence.
Peter
My apology for misreading the question. Using the name Carvex for a saw and also a blade by Festool sometimes leads to confusion.
The blade guide adjusting sequence is similar between the Trion and the Carvex.
Here is a video showing Brian Sedgely (Festool Trainer USA) adjusting the TRION:
Again, sorry for not offering the exact sequence.
Peter
imaginarynumber
Member
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- Dec 18, 2009
- Messages
- 82
Peter Halle said:
Thanks Peter, have watched the video.
Glad I did, otherwise I would have probably loosened them too much.
Holmz
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- Oct 11, 2014
- Messages
- 4,001
imaginarynumber said:
This is what makes the whole p1cc so remarkable is all that non-sense that the great unwashed cannot master is done away with. One just goes hard at it.
Good the trion is working out, and if one generally uses the same blade it probably doesn't need too much fiddling with it.
Rip Van Winkle
Member
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- Nov 26, 2014
- Messages
- 301
Peter Halle said:
While you probably should check to make sure the jigsaw blade will protrude below the workpiece, you can sometimes run a jigsaw blade thru a piece of wood even if the blade does extend all the way thru the lumber.
I forget all the specifics, but I was using a jigsaw to quickly cut some rough lumber into shorter pieces before jointing and planing it. The wood was rough sawn, and might have been ash or hard or soft maple. I was using a Trion jigsaw either with one of the thicker Festool blades or with a Bosch T234 Progressor blade, with the jigsaw set at the III orbit setting. So I marked a line, and then ran the jigsaw thru the lumber, and the pieve remsined hanging on the end. The lumber was somewhere between 1/8" ans 3/8" too thick. I think I finished the cut with a handsaw. The cut was straight up and down, and if there was any burning it was minimal.
Yes you can sometimes cut a piece of wood in more than one cut if it is thicker than the length of the blade, but if you are then bending blades it isn't the tool's issue nor that of the blade.
Peter
Peter
"You obviously think that I'm wrong to like my Trion because its never given me a problem and given you nothing but aggravation. I guess I shouldn't share my experience with others who also have made the decision to buy a Trion and have others defend their positions when they call it a bad purchase. Your turn".
John
Thanks for the reply John. Firstly, may I apologise for my rather high-handed approach. I tend to take umbrage with what I'd consider to be dismissive responses to my own personal experiences. I'm not exactly sure how old my own Trion is: my tax depreciation schedule only goes back to 2005/2006, but backtracking my own "whining" postings on this & other fora places the purchase sometime in 2002, give or take a tax-year.
14 years. That SHOULD be sufficient time to sort out a tool's "peculiarities". It was never in "continuous" use. It was just one of a whole suite of tools required in an electrician/builder's arsenal. But for me it was an expensive mistake. The sheer variety of tasks required, the different substrates and materials, situations and even the lack of illumination available in sub-floor and ceiling crawlspaces is beyond the tools' capacity to perform reliably. Especially given that I'd as likely as not be operating without access to mains power, just a small 1000w inverter connected between 2 gel auxiliary batteries and a 100' cord. The deadly combination of less than perfect illumination, a requirement for critical, micrometer-perfect guide adjustment and ageing eyesight equates to a frustrating experience.
My Bosch 135 by contrast has similar capacities but vastly superior adjustment: an instantaneous pushbutton. Change blades, push the button & go. Change orbit eccentricity, push the button & go. No ridiculous onboard allen/torx keys for guide adjustment, no holding it up to the light to ensure the side clearance is "just so", no loosening the soleplate by key to tilt.... no losing the bl#@dy key in the gloom of a cellar, fumbling in the dark & dust in the twilight of a head torch's dim luminance. Yes it happened to me... also in the Charlie-fluff (shredded newsprint) insulation of a ceiling space. Needed to find a magnet for that one.
The only thing missing are LED headlights. Most if not all "pro" level contemporary saws have them these days. One of the almost indispensible "gimmicks" that provides assistance to those like me with less than perfect youthful vision. Another is a switchable blower; so much more useable & convenient than a corrugated hose hanging out the back for following an indistinct cutline.
That's the thing with Festo. My first tools - an SR5E vac and HL850E planer were incredible, innovative tools that were unique in the marketplace of 1995. Autoswitching vacs and unlimited rebating were triumphs of convenience, and unheard of luxuries. The Rotex & Deltex, whilst not unique, were exemplars of systems integration. I could almost forgive the poor performance of my Festo cordless purchases in the light of these previous triumphs.
However, the increasing gap between promised & delivered performance in subsequent purchases has, to be charitable, been "disappointing" to say the least. My Duplex sanders, invaluable for cleaning colonial mouldings, are not as smooth running as they were touted to be, and by their linear action subject to premature paper clogging in paint stripping operations. The Kapex was worse. A cleverly designed and packaged saw prematurely rushed to market, with what I felt to be grave & potentially dangerous ergonomic, material and safety concerns.
I also find that my last Festo purchase, a RO90DX to be compromised in its usefulness. Far from being the masterful "jack of all trades" 4-in-one sanding solution it's purported, I've found it not only severely ergonomically compromised, but also comprehensively outperformed in MOST of its functions by Festo's own and competitors' machines that cost a fraction of the baby Rotex's price.
Now call me queer as a clockwork orange, but I'm of the opinion that a tool should serve & assist the operator, not vice versa. There's something skewed and awry with the alternative. I also hold the presumably unfashionable expectation that a premium price should be commensurate with, if not exemplary then at least superior performance. That much better performance can be had elsewhere at considerably lower prices makes me suspect somebody's having a bit of a laugh at my (literal) expense. Maybe that's the "agenda" I espouse.
John
Thanks for the reply John. Firstly, may I apologise for my rather high-handed approach. I tend to take umbrage with what I'd consider to be dismissive responses to my own personal experiences. I'm not exactly sure how old my own Trion is: my tax depreciation schedule only goes back to 2005/2006, but backtracking my own "whining" postings on this & other fora places the purchase sometime in 2002, give or take a tax-year.
14 years. That SHOULD be sufficient time to sort out a tool's "peculiarities". It was never in "continuous" use. It was just one of a whole suite of tools required in an electrician/builder's arsenal. But for me it was an expensive mistake. The sheer variety of tasks required, the different substrates and materials, situations and even the lack of illumination available in sub-floor and ceiling crawlspaces is beyond the tools' capacity to perform reliably. Especially given that I'd as likely as not be operating without access to mains power, just a small 1000w inverter connected between 2 gel auxiliary batteries and a 100' cord. The deadly combination of less than perfect illumination, a requirement for critical, micrometer-perfect guide adjustment and ageing eyesight equates to a frustrating experience.
My Bosch 135 by contrast has similar capacities but vastly superior adjustment: an instantaneous pushbutton. Change blades, push the button & go. Change orbit eccentricity, push the button & go. No ridiculous onboard allen/torx keys for guide adjustment, no holding it up to the light to ensure the side clearance is "just so", no loosening the soleplate by key to tilt.... no losing the bl#@dy key in the gloom of a cellar, fumbling in the dark & dust in the twilight of a head torch's dim luminance. Yes it happened to me... also in the Charlie-fluff (shredded newsprint) insulation of a ceiling space. Needed to find a magnet for that one.
The only thing missing are LED headlights. Most if not all "pro" level contemporary saws have them these days. One of the almost indispensible "gimmicks" that provides assistance to those like me with less than perfect youthful vision. Another is a switchable blower; so much more useable & convenient than a corrugated hose hanging out the back for following an indistinct cutline.
That's the thing with Festo. My first tools - an SR5E vac and HL850E planer were incredible, innovative tools that were unique in the marketplace of 1995. Autoswitching vacs and unlimited rebating were triumphs of convenience, and unheard of luxuries. The Rotex & Deltex, whilst not unique, were exemplars of systems integration. I could almost forgive the poor performance of my Festo cordless purchases in the light of these previous triumphs.
However, the increasing gap between promised & delivered performance in subsequent purchases has, to be charitable, been "disappointing" to say the least. My Duplex sanders, invaluable for cleaning colonial mouldings, are not as smooth running as they were touted to be, and by their linear action subject to premature paper clogging in paint stripping operations. The Kapex was worse. A cleverly designed and packaged saw prematurely rushed to market, with what I felt to be grave & potentially dangerous ergonomic, material and safety concerns.
I also find that my last Festo purchase, a RO90DX to be compromised in its usefulness. Far from being the masterful "jack of all trades" 4-in-one sanding solution it's purported, I've found it not only severely ergonomically compromised, but also comprehensively outperformed in MOST of its functions by Festo's own and competitors' machines that cost a fraction of the baby Rotex's price.
Now call me queer as a clockwork orange, but I'm of the opinion that a tool should serve & assist the operator, not vice versa. There's something skewed and awry with the alternative. I also hold the presumably unfashionable expectation that a premium price should be commensurate with, if not exemplary then at least superior performance. That much better performance can be had elsewhere at considerably lower prices makes me suspect somebody's having a bit of a laugh at my (literal) expense. Maybe that's the "agenda" I espouse.
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