Centrotec 09 bit set

[jvsteenb]

probably one of the higher quality cutting tool manufacturers in Europe that still work in HSS.

Being from Europe, this remark kinda has me puzzled.... I know of (mostly wood-oriented) drills in Chrome-Vanadium steel( not the hardest, but available from cheap and rather worthless to superior quality and very tight tolerances ), and different qualities of HSS drills, ranging from cheap substrates that hardly deserve the "High Speed" in HSS, rolled or twisted with a cheap black fosfate coating or a would-be TiN coating, to high quality HSS or HSS-E drills, ground to precise tolerances with all kinds of tipgrind options and ranging from uncoated to TiAlN or even more exotic coatings, including evaporated diamond or bicubic boron nitride.
If technology has developed from there, it got past me ?

Am I to believe that you Americans have held back on a major metallurgical breakthrough to punish us for our stubborn refusal to give up the metric system?
[blink]

Pun aside, I own the '09 Centrotec set, and LOVE IT!
In my neck of the woods, the T15+3 doesn't come in the attic-lid systainer, only the C12 does ( the price-difference with the T12+3 is almost negligeable, so I suspect this may be a way of boosting the C12 sales till stocks deminish... ). The T15+3 even comes in a Sys-1...
But the '09 Centrotec set comes with the new lid, and I think it's a great boon. The lid-compartment is divided in three and all the gizmo's are seated in their own insert ( probably mini-systainer compatible ? ) so even if the lid might come loose, there won't be a big problem - just pick up three inserts and place them back in the lid.

The brad-point wood-drill-bits are absolutely awesome, and their availability was a big factor in my decision to buy into the Centrotec system. So are the Centrotec driver bits, especially the Torx bits - I'm a big Torx fan, and really don't get all the fuss about the Robertson square drive...... Technology has gotten a bit past square drive if you ask me.... ( I expect some flak for this one.... )

I have somewhat mixed feelings about the HSS metal drill bits though.
They're prime quality, no problems there. But the fact that they're Centrotec inserts that take round shaft drill bits somehow puts me off.
I know that metal drill bits are prone to wear, and that most people don't bother grinding them, so swapping the bit is good policy. But I would like some top quality stepped point HSS-E bits with "native" Centrotec shafts. OK,OK, end of rant.

There's a 1/4" socket set included - that's nice but I'd rather have swapped it for a couple of the nice pre-drilling and countersinking combination bits in different sizes. Especially the hinge-predrilling bit would have been a nice addition.

Bottom line: I didn't vote in the poll, but I think this set seriously adds to the value of the Centrotec drills - so either imperial or metric: if you own a Centrotec drill or fancy one be sure to get one!

Regards,

Job

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

probably one of the higher quality cutting tool manufacturers in Europe that still work in HSS.

Being from Europe, this remark kinda has me puzzled.... I know of (mostly wood-oriented) drills in Chrome-Vanadium steel( not the hardest, but available from cheap and rather worthless to superior quality and very tight tolerances ), and different qualities of HSS drills, ranging from cheap substrates that hardly deserve the "High Speed" in HSS, rolled or twisted with a cheap black fosfate coating or a would-be TiN coating, to high quality HSS or HSS-E drills, ground to precise tolerances with all kinds of tipgrind options and ranging from uncoated to TiAlN or even more exotic coatings, including evaporated diamond or bicubic boron nitride.
If technology has developed from there, it got past me ?

Am I to believe that you Americans have held back on a major metallurgical breakthrough to punish us for our stubborn refusal to give up the metric system?
[blink]

Pun aside, I own the '09 Centrotec set, and LOVE IT!
In my neck of the woods, the T15+3 doesn't come in the attic-lid systainer, only the C12 does ( the price-difference with the T12+3 is almost negligeable, so I suspect this may be a way of boosting the C12 sales till stocks deminish... ). The T15+3 even comes in a Sys-1...
But the '09 Centrotec set comes with the new lid, and I think it's a great boon. The lid-compartment is divided in three and all the gizmo's are seated in their own insert ( probably mini-systainer compatible ? ) so even if the lid might come loose, there won't be a big problem - just pick up three inserts and place them back in the lid.

The brad-point wood-drill-bits are absolutely awesome, and their availability was a big factor in my decision to buy into the Centrotec system. So are the Centrotec driver bits, especially the Torx bits - I'm a big Torx fan, and really don't get all the fuss about the Robertson square drive...... Technology has gotten a bit past square drive if you ask me.... ( I expect some flak for this one.... )
I have somewhat mixed feelings about the HSS metal drill bits though.
They're prime quality, no problems there. But the fact that they're Centrotec inserts that take round shaft drill bits somehow puts me off.
I know that metal drill bits are prone to wear, and that most people don't bother grinding them, so swapping the bit is good policy. But I would like some top quality stepped point HSS-E bits with "native" Centrotec shafts. OK,OK, end of rant.

There's a 1/4" socket set included - that's nice but I'd rather have swapped it for a couple of the nice pre-drilling and countersinking combination bits in different sizes. Especially the hinge-predrilling bit would have been a nice addition.

Bottom line: I didn't vote in the poll, but I think this set seriously adds to the value of the Centrotec drills - so either imperial or metric: if you own a Centrotec drill or fancy one be sure to get one!

Regards,

Job

I agree 100% and yes, you will get it for that! [cool]

 

[greg mann]

probably one of the higher quality cutting tool manufacturers in Europe that still work in HSS.

Being from Europe, this remark kinda has me puzzled.... I know of (mostly wood-oriented) drills in Chrome-Vanadium steel( not the hardest, but available from cheap and rather worthless to superior quality and very tight tolerances ), and different qualities of HSS drills, ranging from cheap substrates that hardly deserve the "High Speed" in HSS, rolled or twisted with a cheap black fosfate coating or a would-be TiN coating, to high quality HSS or HSS-E drills, ground to precise tolerances with all kinds of tipgrind options and ranging from uncoated to TiAlN or even more exotic coatings, including evaporated diamond or bicubic boron nitride.
If technology has developed from there, it got past me ?

I have somewhat mixed feelings about the HSS metal drill bits though.
They're prime quality, no problems there. But the fact that they're Centrotec inserts that take round shaft drill bits somehow puts me off.
I know that metal drill bits are prone to wear, and that most people don't bother grinding them, so swapping the bit is good policy. But I would like some top quality stepped point HSS-E bits with "native" Centrotec shafts. OK,OK, end of rant.

Regards,

Job

HSS, as opposed to carbide, which would be impractical for hand drill. I agree that drills just inserted into a centotec shank are not much to get excited about. Fully integrated shanks, such as done with the wood bits is the only way to go.

 

[tbellemare]

I look at the recent Centrotec bit offerings differently...

The Centrotec "bit holders" are all sized according to the drill bit diameter. The HSS drill bits that they hold are consumables, which is why you get 3 with each bit holder and why they come in replacement packs of 10 bits each. I use my drill(s) a lot and I was, personally, very glad to see these hit the market. I drill metal fairly often.

I have designed a lot of mechanical devices with just about every thread form imaginable and just about every tolerance imaginable. I can understand why an inexact bit would be a problem under certain circumstances but I can't think of any that I would want done with a hand drill.

I once went out to the shop where I used to work and caught a guy using a hand drill to ream a hole for a Lee plug that was meant to hold 25,000 psi differential. It was specified to have a Class 3 fit, which meant that the tolerances on the diameter of the hole were .2187" - .2192". One half of one thousandth of an inch play and it required at least a 63 finish - let's not even talk about the runout requirements. What that means to me, is that NO MAN can guarantee that they will achieve those results with a hand drill. Any drilling/machining operation that requires ultra precision needs to be done by a machine not something handheld.

With that in mind, a 6.0mm bit is .2362" and a 6.5mm bit is .2559". It's just my opinion and I don't mean to disparage anyone else's opinion but with a hand drill, less that 14 thousands of an inch on the low side or less than 6 thousandths of an inch on the high side is pretty darn close.

BTW, the recommended "Close Fit" clearance hole for a 1/4" screw is .2570".

Tom

 

[jvsteenb]

Tom,

Perhaps Ididn't make myself clear...
I absolutely DO understand the rationale behind offering "bit holders" with apropriate bits.

But just as I like to have "native" driverbits, I'd welcome "native" centrotec drillbits, if the quality was top-notch.
I have lots of bits that I consider discardable, but there's some that get sent out to the same sharpening service that sharpens and coats my mills and sawblades.

I must admit that there's probably no point, from a precision perspective.
And an MT2/3- or B16-Centrotec adapter wouldn't make much sense either....

But then again: how much would it cost to create a drillbit with a Centrotec shaft, given a big enough market?
Spade- and even auger-bits would most likely follow.... The Zobo system ( by Protool ) already features a Centrotec-shafted forstner-type bit.....

Regards,

Job

 

[tbellemare]

Job:

I don't know what it would cost to produce the bits you're describing but I would guess somewhere north of what they are offering now.

I think, for the U.S. market anyway, they hit the sweet spot. Unfortunately, we are a throwaway society so consumables are very popular. The price-point on this set of bits, if used regularly, is pretty attractive given that you buy the holder once and the replacement bits are cheap. If you're someone that sharpens bits, they are even more attractive.

I would like to see a more complete offering of Centrotec bits here also. The oaks are slow, but the Earth is patient...

BTW, which part of Nederlands? I lived across from the rowing club for 1-1/2 years, where the Nord and Suid Amstel meet.

Tom

 

[jvsteenb]

Hi Tom,

I guess you're right. I think they hit the sweet spot, and not just for the U.S. market. But still, where there's a market for Lee Nielsen planes, japanese chisels and such, I guess there's room to market a superior quality stepped-point HSS-E Centrotec drillbit set.....

For as far as my location in the Netherlands goes: I suspect you lived in Amsterdam, and I'm only 60 miles from there - but then again a good deal of this country is covered by a 90 mile radius from Amsterdam....  I Live in a small town in the province of Gelderland, not very far from Arnhem.

Regards,

Job

 

[greg mann]

It looks like we are all more in agreement than it forst appeared. Tom, you made my point about metalworking precision better than I could. It is clearly a different world. I am willing to go out on a limb and say even those who do metal at home do not need the range needed in manufacturing, and if they do, they are not using a hand drill to get there.

I am heartened to learn that you think the size specific centrotec shanks with replaceable drill bits work to your satisfaction. I have seen these offered for the standard 1/4 drive hex and have always felt the little set screw approach to securing the drill to be lacking. Fro the most part Job seems to be in agreement. Regarding the replaceable aspect of these tools (in that format) it certainly is a nice feature, and makes some sense. Perhaps Festool has pulled off the execution at a higher level. I am open to persuasion.

 

[tbellemare]

Job:

I lived in Suid Amsterdam and my office was in Hoofddorp, just west of Schiphol. We had another office in s'Hertogenbosch that I visited frequently. I spent a lot of time working in Duesseldorf so I drove around Arnhem pretty often. 'Nice part of the world.

Greg:

I think we are more or less in agreement. If I were doing precision metal work, I would want a solid cutting tool in a solid set up.

For the utility I get with the Centrotec bit holders with replaceable HSS bits, I am very happy. Until Festool made the set available here, I though it was a cruel tease to put only 1 of them in with the drills.

Tom

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Ok, so let me float an idea I had... (Yes, I have ideas).

What would you guys think of a Centrotec Set that came as components in a sortainer???  And, if you like the idea, what would you want to see in it?

 

[Inner10]

I'm a big Torx fan, and really don't get all the fuss about the Robertson square drive...... Technology has gotten a bit past square drive if you ask me.... ( I expect some flak for this one....  )

I'm not trying to give you flak...but I am Canadian... the point of the robertson is that its a tapered square that allows the screw to wedge onto the drive and not fall off.  That means you can put a screw on the end of a screwdriver then only using one hand set it in place and screw it; thats the whole point of robertson.  Finding a good robertson screw can be tough though...

Yes I realize that a magnetic bit setter solves this problem but magnetic bit holders are not a panacia.

I use TORX for concrete screws and robertson or hex for nearly everything else.  Robertson has only 4 sizes, 2 popular ones, TORX has well...too many.

I love TORX for how its really hard to cam out while driving fastners, but robertson work just great for 90% of screws I drive.

 

[rnt80]

Ok, so let me float an idea I had... (Yes, I have ideas).

What would you guys think of a Centrotec Set that came as components in a sortainer???  And, if you like the idea, what would you want to see in it?

Shane,

Is this really a possiblity or are you just teasing us?  Although I would buy the Centrotec set now as it is offered in Europe, the component idea is an attractive one.  As some have mentioned here already, I've had the drill for 6+ months and I feel like I'm not coming close to reaching it's full potential without the corresponding bits/accessories.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Ok, so let me float an idea I had... (Yes, I have ideas).

What would you guys think of a Centrotec Set that came as components in a sortainer???  And, if you like the idea, what would you want to see in it?

I'm kind of like Kevin Costner in Field of Dreams, you build it, I will buy it.

Do elaborate on this idea.  I think having that set in a sortainer would make for easier acess.  You wouldn't have to unstack things to get to the bits and such.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Well, I don't have any specifics and I can't guarantee that it would actually happen but I'm looking for feedback.  I pitched the idea to our product management team and they seemed to like it.  So, I'm floating the idea to you guys.  Based on the response from the group, we'll see what happens.  I do feel like a Centrotec offering of some sort will be in the works as a direct result of this thread.  I would say that the mini systainer idea is probably a no-go.  While it's a good idea, it's just not something we could easily pull together right now.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

But then again: how much would it cost to create a drillbit with a Centrotec shaft, given a big enough market?
Spade- and even auger-bits would most likely follow.... The Zobo system ( by Protool ) already features a Centrotec-shafted forstner-type bit.....
Regards,

Job

I believe it is just a insert that srews into the shat of those that makes the centrotec connection.  I saw those and none of the individual size bits had a centrotec type shank on them.

 

[John Stevens]

Well, I don't have any specifics and I can't guarantee that it would actually happen but I'm looking for feedback.

Well, what price points are you looking at?

Or perhaps a more useful question for us consumers:  how much of a discount over the prices of single bits, and the price of a systainer, are we looking at?  Spend $x, save x'%.  Spend $y, save y'%, etc.

Regards,

John

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

I think talking price may be putting the cart before the horse.  This is just the conceptual stage.  Without knowing what's going into such an offering, it's not possible to talk price.  Maybe we can try it this way...

Imagine taking the previous Centrotec Set offered in the US (or the one from Europe for that matter) and putting all of the components in a sortainer instead of in a systainer with inserts.  Like it or don't like it?  It's a matter of relying on something being assembled in Germany or being able to possibly assemble a Centrotec assortment here in the US.

 

[Radiopat]

I for one would love to see a Centrotec set in a sortainer.  I just purchased a T15-3 and bought a 4 drawer sortainer with it to hold bits and screw, but I can think of many uses for this sortainer so another would be welcome.  Thousands spent on Festool goodies, why quit now?

 

[Holzhacker]

Sorry Shane, I have to disagree about discussing pricing. Pricing is exactly the issue. During early spring of 09 there was a complete 'new' Centrotec set on ebay like you have in Lebanon. I stopped watching it when the price went well over $500+. It seems to me that the last set here had two faults, too big with too much stuff guys don't use enough and too pricey.
I'll spend 600 on tools we know that. $500-600 on a Sys full of bits and drivers isn't going to happen. I say any new set should be $300. max. Beyond that the price point is too high for a box full of consumables.

 

[jvsteenb]

But then again: how much would it cost to create a drillbit with a Centrotec shaft, given a big enough market?
Spade- and even auger-bits would most likely follow.... The Zobo system ( by Protool ) already features a Centrotec-shafted forstner-type bit.....
Regards,

Job

I believe it is just a insert that srews into the shat of those that makes the centrotec connection.  I saw those and none of the individual size bits had a centrotec type shank on them.

Actually, I'm pretty sure they aren't. There's a whole range of Zobo drills, and only a few with the Centrotec shaft. They come in a set (5 sizes in a mini-systainer, steep price)

http://wwwinet.my-tts.com/Protool/Produktbilder/02_fuehrungssysteme_bohren/jpg_zoom/zoom_02_wdcsetced15355x_636523_p_01a.jpg

or individual, with an even steeper pricepoint.

http://wwwinet.my-tts.com/Protool/Produktbilder/02_fuehrungssysteme_bohren/jpg_zoom/zoom_02_wdc35x100ce_636528_p_02a.jpg

Only 5 sizes of the  the CV types come in Centrotec shaft, none of the other types do (yet).
The setscrew is for the replacable (and extensible) centerpoint.

Regards,

Job