Centrotec - Is standard better than better?

[HarveyWildes]

Just got a C-18, which I like very much.  However, two things amaze me about Centrotec.

First, I'm amazed that Festool is able to get away with such a non-standard hex shaft arrangement as Centrotec.  Looking at Centrotec, the only thing that I can really see as an advantage to the Centrotec hex shaft is it's longer length on the drill side of the bit, which probably does give it some additional stability.  The other advantage to Centrotec is the overall quality of the bits, but that quality could be built into bits with any style of shaft.  Given what I see as the limited additional value of the extra length, my opinion is that in this case standard (e.g. the standard hex shaft bits with ball, not wire, detents) is better than better, because the Centrotec shafts are only marginally better, all other things being equal.  In this case, being able to use the collection of bits that I've built up over the years in the drill directly, without an adaptor, is way better than the slight advantage of the Centrotec design.  It makes it harder to recommend that people buy the Festool drills if it's a kludge to use the bits they already own.

Here are some things that Festool could do to mitigate the problem.
(1) Sell a Centrotec to standard hex shaft adaptor the works better than the one they sell now.  This is an inferior solution to begin with because of the extra length.
(2) Or... Convert to standard hex shafts - can't see that happening.
(3) Or... Sell a standard hex bit chuck modelled after the Centrotec shaft (similar to 12V screwdrivers like the Milwaukee M12).  This is the solution that I really like.  For the price of the Centrotec chuck, I'd easily buy that.  Color code it so that customers don't mistake it with the Centrotec chuck.

Now I know that I can chuck up anything in the Jacobs chuck, but I like the easy convenience of just sticking a hex shaft in a chuck without twirling it to tighten and loosen it.  But here's what I learned from my Milwaukee M12 screwdriver and drill:  I use the screwdriver with hex bits, and the drill only when I can't use the screwdriver because the drill's chuck is just enough more of a pain to use.  Besides, the Jacobs chuck adds extra length which isn't necessary.

Second, I'm amazed that no one is making aftermarket Centrotec bits.  At $299US, the installer's kit certainly represents an opportunity.  I don't want to spend that much on a kit when I'm afraid that I'll use a few bits and the rest will sit.  The price of the individual bits is even more daunting.  Sometimes I want Festool quality in a bit, but sometimes I just want a cheap bit that I can use and then let it sit in the toolbox without feeling like I'm hoarding.  I would be willing to buy a Festool bit if I knew I was going to use the heck out of it, but one off use, not so much.  In addition to that, there is probably some opportunity to make aftermarket bits that Festool doesn't make.  Is it really true that there are few enough Festool drill owners in the world to justify aftermarket bits?  Seems crazy to me, but no one seems to be going after whatever opportunity there is.

This may seem like a really negative post, so here are the positive points:
*  I like my new C-18 drill.  Really!  It's smooth, powerful, well-balanced, and quiet.
*  A standard hex shaft, ball detent chuck would address all of the issues that I have with it at the moment.
*  There is an opportunity for cheaper Centrotec bits as long as Festool does not sell said chuck.  Opportunity is good!

What am I missing?  Thoughts?

 

[Mort]

You can stick 1/4" hex bits into the drill without a chuck installed at all. It doesn't lock in like an impact driver but the magnet works pretty good.

Snappy and Atlas make aftermarket Centrotec bits. They aren't super cheap but cheaper than the Festool brand. I don't see anyone making 99 cent throwaway bits though, if they only work in $600 drills.

The Centrotec system is nice, but full disclosure, the only reason I have any is because I won them from Bob Marino. The quality is impeccable, no doubt about that, there is no play at all when they're chucked up. But worth $300? Hard to justify. But so is a $600 drill.

 

[Stone Message]

There are some points which are important...

You can, as [member=46908]Mort[/member] says, put any ordinary hex bit directly in the end of any Festool drill without a chuck or bit holder at all. I often do this either for speed or more often to reduce the overall length of drill and bit when working in tight spaces.

There are plenty of other manufacturers using the Centrotec standard. Axminster have a range of excellent products that use this standard and their range is growing rapidly. I was sent a sample of one of their Centrotec compatible Forstner bits a while ago and it fits as well as my (superb) Festool ones and does the job for a little less money.

When I made my Centrotec video Festool allowed me to use their graphic which I will show here:

[attachimg=1]

It is important to note the advantage of the greater length of Centrotec bits. They register in two places - inside the Centrotec chuck and also in the hex cavity on the shaft of the drill. This added stability means that drilling operations are more precise and screwing operations are more positive.

I am a Centrotec fan and it is now becoming a more popular standard as other manufacturers adopt the concept.

Peter

 

[richy3333]

I have a number of the Axminster centrotec bits, made by Fisch?  They're really good (in my opinion). My only wish would be that there were more types of bits using the standard, like long shaft spade bits. But I accept the bits are geared toward the woodworker and not general contractors.

 

[Stone Message]

I have a number of the Axminster centrotec bits, made by Fisch?  They're really good (in my opinion). My only wish would be that there were more types of bits using the standard, like long shaft spade bits. But I accept the bits are geared toward the woodworker and not general contractors.

Now that we have [member=63423]AxminsterTools[/member] here on the FOG it would be a good idea to let them know what you want.

I am sure everyone understands that I know them quite well as they have helped me to develop the PGS and bring it to market. In doing this I have learnt that they are not a bunch of sleepy shopkeepers but a pro-active and forward thinking bunch of pretty clever people.

Peter

 

[Euclid]

I've just bought the Fisch stubby Centrotec-compatible drill bits (3mm - 10mm) from Axminster and I'm pleased with them.

As I'm sure has been mentioned before, the Festool HSS bits come a holder with three replacement bits so they might not be quite as costly as is sometimes imagined.

The Fisch bits are, like the Festool brad-point bits, "mono bloc" - that is the bit and shank are one piece so the the 'sharp end' is not replaceable, but they weren't hideously expensive.

I don't see why a regular brad-point bit could not fitted into a Festool HSS holder; anyone done that?

 

[Stone Message]

I've just bought the Fisch stubby Centrotec-compatible drill bits (3mm - 10mm) from Axminster and I'm pleased with them.

As I'm sure has been mentioned before, the Festool HSS bits come a holder with three replacement bits so they might not be quite as costly as is sometimes imagined.

The Fisch bits are, like the Festool brad-point bits, "mono bloc" - that is the bit and shank are one piece so the the 'sharp end' is not replaceable, but they weren't hideously expensive.

I don't see why a regular brad-point bit could not fitted into a Festool HSS holder; anyone done that?

The simplest ideas are the most brilliant.

Many thanks for that.

Peter

 

[AlexThePalex]

I like the centrotec system better than anything else available. I love how you can switch out bits in a jiffy. Of course we can buy the bits separately, the American system where you have to buy a complete set or nothing is just crazy and very inconvenient. If my only choice was to buy a systainer full of it for €350 I would have never bought it, nor a Festool drill.

I don't see why a regular brad-point bit could not fitted into a Festool HSS holder; anyone done that?

The Festool bits have a machined flat surface where the screw engages. Normal round bits do not fit well, I've tried. Maybe a bit of modification with an angle grinder could help, didn't try that yet.

 

[mrboult]

The Festool bits have a machined flat surface where the screw engages. Normal round bits do not fit well, I've tried. Maybe a bit of modification with an angle grinder could help, didn't try that yet.

I've been doing exactly this for ages. I'm not even particularly precise in my replication of the flat spot - I grind a much longer spot to make sure it's flat where it needs to be with out precision - so very quickly. Works great, never had any problems.

 

[HarveyWildes]

Just woke up to 12" (300mm+) of snow after a long winter's nap.  I know I'm making the Aussies envious, but sometimes those of us who live in the north are just blessed beyond belief.

First order of business this morning - checking the Axminster web site.  I found some "double groove" and "quick change" bits that appear Centrotec compatible.  Manufacturers include Fisch, Axminster, and UJK.  Several comments:
*  While there were some very interesting choices, there was still not a large selection.
*  The bits were expensive to moderately priced, with the exception of one step drill bit I found on Amazon.
*  They were hard to find.  Who knew to search for "double groove", which yielded the best results on the Axminster site?  On Google, "double groove bit" yielded an eclectic set of router bit results, and "double groove drill bit" yielded one or two relevant bits on the first two pages, although it did a better job with the images.  I tried "Centrotec compatible" yesterday, and that was a dud - the aftermarket bit makers must have to avoid words like "Centrotec compatible" in their web page search tags.
*  Given the ambiguity of "double groove", who else besides people who own Festool drills are customers for "double groove" bits?  Is "double groove" just a euphemism for "Centrotec", or are there other drills/systems that use double groove bits?

Second order of business - experimenting with using hex bits directly in the drill without a chuck installed.  I'll get to that later today when I have donned a proper wooley jumper.  Whatever the results, I suspect that I'll still want that standard hex shank chuck from Festool.

Thanks for all of the input.  The difficulty of finding Centrotec compatible bits in search engines proves the value of FOG - couldn't have done it without you.

 

[Stone Message]

I just did a quick search on the Axminster web site using "Centrotec" and got 5 pages (over 70) items. Some were Festool but a lot were Axminster or UJK items. I hope that [member=63423]AxminsterTools[/member] notes the interest in this standard and I share [member=33306]richy3333[/member] has in long Centrotec ended drivers, both flat and Pozi.

Peter

 

[Mort]

No doubt a 1/4" hex chuck would be superior, going from "it probably won't fall out" to "it can't fall out". I think if they did that they would sell less Centrotec though.

I've seen Peter's video and I know the benefits. I have been critical of the price and necessity of the proprietary system on this forum before, and although I've softened after having used it, I still maintain they're too expensive.

What Festool should do is encourage lower price companies to develop and sell Centrotec compatible bits and drills. There is a certain segment of the population that will never buy a Festool drill because of the price, and that's okay. You aren't going to sell them one. But there are those who are on the fence because the consumables are expensive and hard to find. I get that the quality is better, but when I need a bit on Friday afternoon and I live out in the boonies, out comes the Milwaukee.

 

[The.Handyman]

What I found that I do not like about Centrotec while playing with the drill during the Festool roadshow. Correct me if I am wrong, but there is no easy one handed operation to insert or remove a bit.

On my DeWalt, Milwaukee, and some Makita the 1/4" bit chuck is slick. I can just press the desired bit into the chuck and it snaps in, locked, no removing it. On the DeWalt and Wera Rapidapters releasing the bit is a simple collar pull and the bit is 'ejected' forward for easy one handed removal. The others, pull the collar forward, same direction as removing the bit to easily remove one handed.

I found the Centrotec to be cumbersome to insert and remove bits in comparison. That was my initial impression. I expected for such a premium that it would have all the great features of the 1/4" bit chucks.

 

[Holmz]

I have a Centrotec and ended up with the Metabo/Mafell small drill.
There is not a lot of difference between the centrotec gear in the green lipped Festool adapter, and the 1/4 bits in the red lipped adapter.

The Brad point Festool drill bits are nice, as are the zobos.

For regular metal drilling, I am using some Brazillian bits in 1/2-mm steps.

The cons:
The 6-mm rust easily
The Festool adapter does not take normal 1/4" bits
The organisation is not great and the bits end up in all the cubby holes.

They seem nice, but it is not like they drill the holes, or drive screws, while I watch.

 

[HarveyWildes]

I just did a quick search on the Axminster web site using "Centrotec" and got 5 pages (over 70) items. Some were Festool but a lot were Axminster or UJK items. I hope that [member=63423]AxminsterTools[/member] notes the interest in this standard and I share [member=33306]richy3333[/member] has in long Centrotec ended drivers, both flat and Pozi.

Peter

Yep.  But Axminster is relatively inaccessible in NA.  I wish they would expand into NA, at least for mail order.  I am going to order the Parf guide set in the next few days, and the VAT exclusion does make up for shipping costs to some degree, but it's still a more inconvenient process than ordering in NA from, say, Lee Valley, Woodcraft, Tool Nut, or Amazon, so I will probably only use it for significant purchases with clear value to me.  What if Lee Valley and Axminster merged or found a way to work cooperatively together?  Both seem to have very good reputations for quality tool manufacturing and customer service.

 

[semenza]

One thing I like about the Centrotec is the compact quick change as opposed to a quick change adapter added to a jacobs chuck. I am not sure if the other brands (in NA) have this now because I haven't looked in a while.

Though not inexpensive the Snappy centrotec line does seem to cover most of what I use that is not offered by Festool. Not all though.

For me the one hand change is not that important I generally need to hold the drill with hand number two anyway. On occasion I have managed a true one hand bit change in very awkward spaces or when the other hand was holding a piece in place.
But that relies on being able to hold the drill against your body,  on the top of a ladder, or some other surface. I think that would be the same even with a click in  type.

Seth

 

[amt]

I recently ordered from Axminster to USA delivery and I was quite pleased with the process.  Shipping was only 15 GBP, but admittedly it was a small package.  I plan on ordering more stuff, in particular Festool and related tools because they are not available in USA or much cheaper from the UK.

I am glad to see the variety of Centrotec compatible bits available from Axminster.  Ideally I would like a range of various lengths of the Wera Rapidapter bit holders but shank be compatible with Centrotec:

I modified one of these bits before to insert into the Centrotec check, but I did not do a great job.  I would prefer the precision of a factory made part.

Best case scenario would be having a company like Wera just make all of their hex shanks be compatible with Centotec.  However, if they did, I am sure Festool would demand a royalty, and then it would never happen...

 

[rmwarren]

[member=61231]HarveyWildes[/member]  - have you tried ordering from Axminster? I did only when the Parf Guides came out and they were great. IIRC I "placed" the order and received a message that they needed to calculate shipping and then email me an invoice, which they did. I clicked, paid, and the guides showed up about a week later. No huhu.

Shipping cost was not outrageous, and with no VAT + increase in dollar value their prices are not bad. If you haven't tired them give it a shot.

After avoiding Centrotec mostly for the same concerns I just got a TXS, kinda because I didn't have one...

Love the tool, now I am shopping for more bits myself. I am going to place an order with Axminster to stock up.

RMW

I just did a quick search on the Axminster web site using "Centrotec" and got 5 pages (over 70) items. Some were Festool but a lot were Axminster or UJK items. I hope that [member=63423]AxminsterTools[/member] notes the interest in this standard and I share [member=33306]richy3333[/member] has in long Centrotec ended drivers, both flat and Pozi.

Peter

Yep.  But Axminster is relatively inaccessible in NA.  I wish they would expand into NA, at least for mail order.  I am going to order the Parf guide set in the next few days, and the VAT exclusion does make up for shipping costs to some degree, but it's still a more inconvenient process than ordering in NA from, say, Lee Valley, Woodcraft, Tool Nut, or Amazon, so I will probably only use it for significant purchases with clear value to me.  What if Lee Valley and Axminster merged or found a way to work cooperatively together?  Both seem to have very good reputations for quality tool manufacturing and customer service.

 

[HarveyWildes]

[member=61231]HarveyWildes[/member]  - have you tried ordering from Axminster? I did only when the Parf Guides came out and they were great. IIRC I "placed" the order and received a message that they needed to calculate shipping and then email me an invoice, which they did. I clicked, paid, and the guides showed up about a week later. No huhu.

Axminster is very accommodating for a non-NA company shipping to NA.  I've contacted the Axminster exports employee and he replied with shipping info.  That is slightly more inconvenient than dealing with Lee Valley, who are slightly more inconvenient than dealing with Amazon.  Not at all too inconvenient to keep me away from ordering the Parf Guides, but just enough to make me use Amazon or Lee Valley first.

 

[rmwarren]

Understood - I often One-Click from my phone in the shop then am surprised when a "Enter Tool Here" shows up a couple days alter. Crack dealers got nuthin on Amazon...

RMW

[member=61231]HarveyWildes[/member]  - have you tried ordering from Axminster? I did only when the Parf Guides came out and they were great. IIRC I "placed" the order and received a message that they needed to calculate shipping and then email me an invoice, which they did. I clicked, paid, and the guides showed up about a week later. No huhu.

Axminster is very accommodating for a non-NA company shipping to NA.  I've contacted the Axminster exports employee and he replied with shipping info.  That is slightly more inconvenient than dealing with Lee Valley, who are slightly more inconvenient than dealing with Amazon.  Not at all too inconvenient to keep me away from ordering the Parf Guides, but just enough to make me use Amazon or Lee Valley first.