Changing Times

Cheese

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Joined
Jan 16, 2015
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So...what exactly has happened to the FOG lately? Is it the extra day in Feb or is it just a knee jerk reaction, or because Festool continues to provide tools that are NAINA? That may  irritate a guy, I know it offends my sensibilities.

I hope it's not the later, but there does seem to be some kind of mojo here that's not working. Testosterone levels seems to be running rampant and the USA Festool forum contacts (not talking about Peter or Seth), seem to be out to lunch. Yawn...sometimes we just need a referee...
 
[member=44099]Cheese[/member]
I do not think it is the FOG per say, rather Festool. As you stated the Festool reps in the US are 'out to lunch' and leaving Peter and Seth to cool things down. When Tyler did respond on the Kapex thread I believe he unintentionally inflamed things.

In the UK there appears to be some issues too, but Phil was recently able to at least present some balance in representing Festool UK.

Down here, there is also dissatisfaction by some, [see One for the Aussies], again not with the FOG or Festool products but with the comparative services offered by Tooltechnics Aust, the Festool importer/distributor.
 
Good question, Cheese.  It must be leap year!

I checked with all of the anguish of late and there are about 43,000 registered members on FOG.  I have no idea how many customers Festool has in North America, but perhaps the forum is maybe 25% +/- of their customers? 

I was guessing at the number of people that have posted problems with their Kapex or other Festool tools in the problems forum.  My guess is that maybe about 100 or so members have had problems they've posted about with many other members joining in on the discussion with their experience.  I don't have an absolute count, but that represents 100/43,000 members or about .002% of the total customers that might have posted.  Now I didn't count all the members with problems, but just guessed.  I could be off, but it seems like a pretty small number.  And even smaller when you consider the number of tools that the membership collectively represents.

Most companies would kill for 99.998% reliability.  I have a lot of Festool tools and have had very few problems with them.  Most I would buy again but a couple I haven't found to be 'best in class' but it hasn't soured me toward the brand, just kept me open to other alternatives when shopping.  When I have had problems, a post here or a call to Festool has taken care of the issue.  The availability of spare parts for seven plus years, 3 year warranty, free shipping to and from, youtube videos, training in three training centers (for a fee) and even this forum are quite the 'safety net' that Festool provides to their owners and membership. 

Looked at it beyond members and to the standpoint of forum activity, there are about 18,800 posts in the 'festool problems' forum out of 435,000 total posts on FOG from the footer on page 1.  That's about 4% of the total.  Much higher than my guess on members that have problems, but still the problem thread is about 1/2 the number of posts in the 'projects'  forum here.  I only wish people were more positive on the work and would allow Festool service to handle the problems!

Thankfully, we have Phil in the UK chasing down some of the issues he has been following on the Kapex thread and I'm sure the US team in Brent, Tyler, and Scott who are monitoring things regularly along with Peter and Seth keeping things on track.  I don't envy the role they play and am forever thankful that we have such a class group of moderators and employee advocates.  Far better than ANY other forum I get involved with from a civility and company support standpoint.

I know from experience with tools that spending a big sum on repairs after a tool fails is a big frustration.  It can sour you toward a brand or company.  I've never felt like a company owed me a free repair after several years of good use.  But I also expect for the prices that we pay that the tool be accurate and functional with no issues.  And the warranty seems to support that opportunity.

Fortunately, March Madness starts soon and Spring is in the air.  Hopefully, we find time for making things and watching basketball and allowing the forum to settle down and trust that Festool will take care of the issues.

Now lets go make something!

Neil
 
[member=167]neilc[/member] what a fantastic response. Thank you for that and yes, it's always a good time to build something!  [big grin]
 
Cheese said:
So...what exactly has happened to the FOG lately? Is it the extra day in Feb or is it just a knee jerk reaction, or because Festool continues to provide tools that are NAINA?

Maybe just cabin fever?

Lack of new tools for people to get excited over, coupled with the end of a long winter (though not very cold) and a slowing economy means more time for people to post their thoughts in place of work?
 
wow [member=167]neilc[/member]
Being a retired engineer, you're even more of a number cruncher than I am. I'm impressed with your compilation of stats and am fully aware that the compilation of these numbers is not just a walk in the park. Creating is easy...verification is time consuming.

I've mentioned to another forum member that I thought the support from the Festool USA side was weak while I also thought that the support from Festool UK/Euro was strong.

In particular, I noted that Phil has a certain outspokenness about him and seems to be well thought of and respected by our European brethren. However, I feel the American part of the equation of this very complex & dynamic relationship, needs to have some attention be paid to it. I'm not saying Tyler isn't capable...I'm thinking Tyler just hasn't been empowered with the tools or support he needs from Festool USA. 

Part of the fire fighting process is to know when to allow small fires to burn to ultimately enhance the overall environmental situation and when to call in the planes to douse the flames. Unfortunately lately, every small fire has been allowed to become a major fire because of poor forest management.  [2cents] [2cents] [2cents]  That'd be 6 cents worth...
 
March madness ?

I don't know but people seem more willing to engage and take shots lately.

Small fires become big ones very quickly. It is helpful to us when members report posts that are out of line. It gets our eyes on a trouble spot that we might not otherwise catch.

One of the forum guidelines is "Be Nice or Don't Post"  just that goes a long ways to prevent fires.

Seth
 
SRSemenza said:
March madness ?
One of the forum guidelines is "Be Nice or Don't Post"  just that goes a long ways to prevent fires.
[/quote

March madness?...madness indeed. I noted in a recent post that there seemed to exist 2 camps...one that wanted answers and explanations and one that just wanted to fight. That observation still stands. Let's just solve problems rather than create them. Creating problems is easy...solving problems is a lot more difficult.

I do like the Be Nice or Don't Post-it Note... [thumbs up]
 
Untidy Shop said:
When Tyler did respond on the Kapex thread I believe he unintentionally inflamed things.

Hey [member=19746]Untidy Shop[/member], I agree with you...Tyler answered the initial questions poised to him succinctly, but then kind of went underground. I really don't believe it's his nature, rather I believe it's the direction he's been dictated to follow. Empowering individuals can be an incredibly powerful phenomenon, but it has to happen with everyone's commitment and support, only then will it be successful and be as powerful as it is.
 
Cheese said:
Untidy Shop said:
When Tyler did respond on the Kapex thread I believe he unintentionally inflamed things.

Hey [member=19746]Untidy Shop[/member], I agree with you...Tyler answered the initial questions poised to him succinctly, but then kind of went underground. I really don't believe it's his nature, rather I believe it's the direction he's been dictated to follow. Empowering individuals can be an incredibly powerful phenomenon, but it has to happen with everyone's commitment and support, only then will it be successful and be as powerful as it is.

YEP .. the "blunt" word kinda caught my eye. Normally an official response would be wordsmithed before it goes out and that response was more from the hip.

We've all had a chance to vent, comment etc now though. There's been some tension and hostility .. but we're nice people basically so hopefully we can all move on and get along.

I do have to smile about what it seems [member=3891]WarnerConstCo.[/member] did a few times ... poked his head up and posted a "what the heck" comment and vanished for a while to see if we'd all grown up it the time that elapsed!! [wink] [big grin] ... Hopefully you can come up for air now buddy!
 
This site has been gradually changing direction towards a more inflammatory and unforgiving environment. Far too many people populating threads with jaded opinions and idle banter, and not facts and useful insights. The NAINA threads are a complete bore along with the price complaints. A larger concern is that FOG has morphed from a user site to a collector site with some thinking the tools be built like a Swiss watch.

Some of todays posts:
  • Festool the BMW of tools
  • Latest Woodpecker OTT - Track Square (thread has attacks on price and quality)
  • My new toy
  • Tool/fixings storage and OCD
  • What Festool Did You Buy Today (not listed yet, but the day is young)

Routine Posts (not listed yet, but it is early on the East Coast):
  • What Festool Did You Buy Today
  • Woodpecker OTT attacks
  • SawStop attacks

The attack threads are the most troublesome because they subtract from the value of the conversation. If you have a user insight, experience with customer service, tool quality, or durability comment then by all means post away. On the other hand nobody cares if you don't like the price, limited run, or owner.

In the end the site is a Festool marketing site.
 
You most definitely have a good point there JimH2.  I looked at some of the current threads just now and found something interesting and disturbing at the same time.  For example, there's a fairly recent poster who took a lot of time to build something beautiful, something useful.  Then he took the time to take lots of pictures and posted those as well.  I am referring to the Dutch Tool Chest thread.  In all the time it's been up, over a month, since feb 6th, there have been over 1600 views but only 5 comments from others than the OP.  Yet when someone joins the FOG, there are tons of pleas from the current members for showing their stuff.  Yet there is virtually no feedback when they do.  Recently there was another thread where someone fairly new posted an intricate curved boat door.  No more than a smattering of replies.  I believe this discourages others to not even bother with continuing sharing the good stuff, because it does take some time and effort to take pictures, upload them, etc.  I guess everyone is gravitating towards the skirmish threads for whatever reasons and I don't believe it is a recent thing either--it's been going on for quite a long time.  Which is too bad that the forum has not evolved into a more vibrant celebration of tools, work and people.
Just an observation from someone who's been on here for some years but only rarely logs in due to other priorities.  I'm sure the more constant contributors will have better theories than mine as to why these things are so. 
 
This site is a sanitised version of the world we live in, If you don't like it you are free too express your opinion as is every one else.(within certain guidelines)

if any ones sensibility's are offended then Best to find a site more suited to one's own ideals (posts are within festools guidlines or they will be deleted) so you see festool makes the rules
 
JimH2 said:
The attack threads are the most troublesome because they subtract from the value of the conversation. If you have a user insight, experience with customer service, tool quality, or durability comment then by all means post away. On the other hand nobody cares if you don't like the price, limited run, or owner.

I agree...within the 4 year time span that I've read this site and the 1 year that I've become an active member, the posts have generally gone from: The bench I built, The kitchen I finished, The cabinets I painted to: Why I hate Kapex, Why I hate Woodpeckers, Why I won't purchase another Festool.  [eek]

FWIW...I'd like to see more build articles. They're of a more positive nature and are a lot more educational for everyone. The build articles you can learn from and that was my reason to join this forum in the first place.  [big grin]
 
Festoolfootstool said:
if any ones sensibility's are offended then Best to find a site more suited to one's own ideals (posts are within festools guidlines or they will be deleted) so you see festool makes the rules

Well it's obvious that anyone can post whatever, within the forum guidelines.  But I'm approaching this from a "letter of the law" vs. "spirit of the law" type of argument.  Which begs the question:  Why are many, many more rushing to the inject their responses into the combative threads as opposed to contributing more to the project threads that they claim to crave to see on here.  This is what I would still like to know, but given how these threads tend to go, I would probably never find out.  It's still worth asking, if only to inquire of ourselves the motivation for being on here.
 
Cheese said:
JimH2 said:
The attack threads are the most troublesome because they subtract from the value of the conversation. If you have a user insight, experience with customer service, tool quality, or durability comment then by all means post away. On the other hand nobody cares if you don't like the price, limited run, or owner.

I agree...within the 4 year time span that I've read this site and the 1 year that I've become an active member, the posts have generally gone from: The bench I built, The kitchen I finished, The cabinets I painted to: Why I hate Kapex, Why I hate Woodpeckers, Why I won't purchase another Festool.  [eek]

FWIW...I'd like to see more build articles. They're of a more positive nature and are a lot more educational for everyone. The build articles you can learn from and that was my reason to join this forum in the first place.  [big grin]

I totally agree with [member=44099]Cheese[/member] (i was going to just +1 lol but didnt want to start that one off)
 
Cheese said:
JimH2 said:
The attack threads are the most troublesome because they subtract from the value of the conversation. If you have a user insight, experience with customer service, tool quality, or durability comment then by all means post away. On the other hand nobody cares if you don't like the price, limited run, or owner.

I agree...within the 4 year time span that I've read this site and the 1 year that I've become an active member, the posts have generally gone from: The bench I built, The kitchen I finished, The cabinets I painted to: Why I hate Kapex, Why I hate Woodpeckers, Why I won't purchase another Festool.  [eek]

FWIW...I'd like to see more build articles. They're of a more positive nature and are a lot more educational for everyone. The build articles you can learn from and that was my reason to join this forum in the first place.  [big grin]

I've also been a lurker before I signed up. One thing I've noticed is quite a few of the bloggers, Youtuber's, retailers, contributors etc who maybe a little while ago used to use tools provided by Festool, or tools they own to make projects to showcase/demonstrate the tools. Now there just seems to be a more commercial feel to a lot of the contributions where they're reviewing, recommending or simply pushing sales in a more raw manner.

The forum does have a bit more of a commercial undertone than I recall, so maybe people are simply following the path that's been laid and think if the forum is going to be used in that way, they're justified in leveraging it to air their grievances.
 
teocaf said:
Festoolfootstool said:
if any ones sensibility's are offended then Best to find a site more suited to one's own ideals (posts are within festools guidlines or they will be deleted) so you see festool makes the rules

Well it's obvious that anyone can post whatever, within the forum guidelines.  But I'm approaching this from a "letter of the law" vs. "spirit of the law" type of argument.  Which begs the question:  Why are many, many more rushing to the inject their responses into the combative threads as opposed to contributing more to the project threads that they claim to crave to see on here.  This is what I would still like to know, but given how these threads tend to go, I would probably never find out.  It's still worth asking, if only to inquire of ourselves the motivation for being on here.

I totally agree. 
 
I've been a member here for 5 years and visit frequently, but post rarely because I've always thought it was a rather hostile place.  I don't see that having changed recently.
 
Thank you to all who have posted here.  Refreshing to see that others really CARE about the FOG and what it means.

Peter
 
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