Church Entrance

[jmbfestool]

Hello!

I would like some advice please on this job I had a look at 2 day!

The client pointed out the pieces of rotten wood he wanted replacing and asked me to check it over if any where else needs replacing for safety reasons.

He told me another joiner/carpenter used some scaffolding and lifted the entire canopy up then replaced the rotten pieces. I can see on one side he used a loose tenon to allow him to fit the new piece. As you can see it has rotten again over the years and the loose tenon has allowed the main upright beam to rot higher up. 

He was saying he just wanted it structurally sound so just replace the rotten bits. I suggested that it would be better I made the triangle section off site so the up right the bottoms and the diagonal pieces as one. So I could turn up with both sides so less time on site.

He was happy with that!  BUT if it was my own I would replace the entire structure.

I would like some advice to how I should tackle this and if I should convince him to just replace the lot.    This means I would not have to put scaffolding up to lift the roof section up and remove to old to replace the new. I can simply remove the entire thing and turn up with the new in large sections and put it together and reuse the tiles.  As you can see it needs repointing again any way.

The wood will look all the same and should not need replacing for a long time again I hope.

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You can see this one has been replace and used a loose tenon to fix it.
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[jonny round boy]

JMB,

I've never done anything like that so can't really offer any advice on how to go about it. What I would say though is check that it isn't protected in any way (listing, conservation area etc.) as many churches are, and entrances like this will likely be covered by that too. And don't just take the vicar's word for it, as you'd be liable not him if you fell foul of the planning department!

 

[jmbfestool]

JMB,

I've never done anything like that so can't really offer any advice on how to go about it. What I would say though is check that it isn't protected in any way (listing, conservation area etc.) as many churches are, and entrances like this will likely be covered by that too. And don't just take the vicar's word for it, as you'd be liable not him if you fell foul of the planning department!

umm, Cheers!  Never thought about it really!  He had an old joiner who use to do it and repaired the the rotten pieces but its a bit more than just the bottom pieces now its the uprights going aswell so bit more work and I was recommend for the job [scared] and I have not really do something like this done a few things similar on roofs and stuff but not on a church so never thought about the planning! Ill looked into that!  He said der is no rush do do the job.

JMB

 

[Craftsman]

I agree. If I were looking at that job, I would be talking to the customer about replacement not repair. I would take a lot of photos and measurments and replace it exactly as the original.

 

[jmbfestool]

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[jmbfestool]

I agree. If I were looking at that job, I would be talking to the customer about replacement not repair. I would take a lot of photos and measurments and replace it exactly as the original.

Cheers! Thats what I am thinking!  Like jonny said though about planning.  I know planning let you replace damaged and rotten for structural reasons no problem but replacing the entire thing might need planning maybe?  I dont know.  I would prefer to take more photos and take more measurements and make as original as I think it is a much better job.

JMB

 

[jmbfestool]

I know its hard to tell but some one might know a bit about history! Maybe you might know what type of oak most churches where made off?

Well the Vicar! Said its made out of Black oak!  Well looking on the internet I can not find anything called black oak!  To me it looks like fresh sawn oak?  I scratched with my keys and it kinda looks a light colour so im assuming its fresh sawn oak.

thank you

JMB

 

[tiralie]

IMHO, I would replace it and redesign (not drastically) it so that those beams that are touching the cement posts are clear of standing water/moisture and more resistant to rot.

Even if you patch it you will never be happy with it, you will still incur the wrath of the local historical preservation board or whom ever has their eye on this structure and the Vicar will go ahead and hire someone else to repair your work.

It's a nice project, I hope you get it.
Tim

 

[jonny round boy]

I know its hard to tell but some one might know a bit about history! Maybe you might know what type of oak most churches where made off?

Well the Vicar! Said its made out of Black oak!  Well looking on the internet I can not find anything called black oak!  To me it looks like fresh sawn oak?  I scratched with my keys and it kinda looks a light colour so im assuming its fresh sawn oak.

thank you

JMB

I'd guess it's just Engilsh oak.

 

[tiralie]

He may of meant Black Walnut or Black Locust which is supposed to be highly rot resistant. Maybe originally that's what it was made from....I would think that White oak would probably be a safe bet for replacement.
Tim

 

[Holzhacker]

I would have two main concerns about a job like this.
- As others have mentioned, Historical preservation (called Landmarks Dept for short by us) may have an issue with full replacement. Often times here they aren't too concerned about repairs as long as the repairs match. Once you talk replacement they tend to freak out and what all kinds of drawings, verifications of countless nonsense and assurances in writing the new will be the same as the old. I would definitely check that out.
- As far as repair versus replace ... In this situation from what I am seeing I would recommend replacement also. Of course the cost tends to be a difficult pill for a client to swallow when they were thinking of only paying for a repair. However, having worked for churches, they often aren't as dumb or ill-informed as they like to pretend. The Vicar may already know that replacement is needed.
I run into a fair amount of jobs that really should be replaced instead of repaired. I run several sets of numbers in my proposal. The replacement cost, the repair cost now and the repair cost over the next several years. You can explain it all you want but once the ongoing numbers are on paper like that, replacement starts looking a lot better to most clients.
It is important to explain that just because they will perform X repairs this year, doesn't mean they are done. BASED ON THE EXTENT OF ROT, there will be ongoing repairs (money) in coming years. If I replace, you (the client) will be done with it for many years. This is one of those jobs where I try very hard to meet the client at the job to present the proposal instead of emailing it. This way I can go through all sets of numbers and explain (sell) the cost effectiveness of replacement. Showing the full extent of rot while going through the proposal really helps. Mr. Client you are asking me to put new wood up against old rotted wood, I can do it, but I'll be back next year and the year after and so on to replace more rotted wood, etc.
On a business note, you repair this, big whoopy do, it won't get you rave reviews. All they'll remember next year is that they paid you last year to fix it and now it needs more work. They won't think about the fact that they should have replaced it in the first place. If you replace it, it super cool advertising for your business. Nail a little Made by: plaque on the side.
Good luck

 

[windmill man]

Hi JMB,

It will have been made from Green English Oak.

In my experience , they prefer repairs to replacement, because of cost and looks and you will get no hassle from the planning.

From the pics do i take it that the rot is in the bottom of the upright the horzontal bearer (at the end) and the brace and under the upright?

If so, acro the roof, locked scarf joint with dowels for upright repair, long dowelled scarf under the upright, to repair the bearer, and brace notched into both like a gallows. These are all recognised medieval joints commonly used for construction or repair.  No protective finish but i would drill the structure for boron pellets.

Hope that helps.

John

 

[windmill man]

Forgot,

Green English Oak as your replacement material. nothing else , not french or european. they dont last as long as english in my experience.
Green Oak Tree nails Offset your dowel drilling.
Select  Heartwood only, NO Sapwood in yor stock

John

Oh and sharp chisels and saws.

 

[Guy Ashley]

JMB

Awesome job! I have done work for churches in the past and despite the fact that the Church of England is the biggest landowner in the UK and richer than the Monarchy they are as tight as a ducks anus!

My experience is that if the cost is under £1000 the local church has to raise the funds by church bazaars, coffee mornings, etc, but if over that amount the quote has to go off to the local Diocese where the Arch Bishop says yes or no.

As regards the rebuild whilst a total replacement would be preferable that is highly unlikely and you will have to do the rotten sections. Dont try and scarve into a rotten section, replace the lot.

The construction detail that Windmill man has given you is spot on and you could get a book on timber framing from Amazon that can give you some tips on chopping out big joints. A Makita chain morticer will pay for itself very quickly.

You will need some big augur bits, long oak dowels, and a bloody BIG mallet. With Green Oak dont try and glue anything it moves like anything and the dowels hold it together.

Site chippy into Oak mastercrafstman in one job!!  [big grin] [big grin]

 

[windmill man]

Chainsaw [eek], dont go there!!!!!!! If you cut into it with a chain saw you have no idea of the forces tied up in the structure and you could end up binding on the chain and get kick back. DONT GO THERE. Chain saws should be used by trained and certificated users. Seen some terrible injuries.
Sharp Handsaw, Big Sharp Chisels , Bloody Big Maul ,Auger and some wedges should do it. Plus patience. As Guy sugested bit of research will help.
If you are feeling ambitious you cold try an arrow scarf or a double fish tail. both joints used for this type of repair(on upright). ( arrow scarf was used for footing arrow shafts, to get them to the standard cloth yard and help penetrate plate armour)

As Guy says no glue

Must get out more [big grin]

John

Edit, Sorry Guy you said chain mortiser, not chain saw, bit over kill but JMB does like his tools [big grin]

 

[jmbfestool]

Thank you every for your tips n tricks and advice!

I'll do a little drawing of what I thought of doing and it would be nice if you could let me know if it's a good idea or not. As I was thinking of replacing the entire bottom section the diagonals and the upright up the to cross beam(horizontal) because it is a halving joint which is holding the horizontal in place  the horizontal piece is actually only notched 10mm  15mm and the vertical is notched the entire width minus 10mm15mm of corse.  I don't know if you can see from the pictures but the curved pieces should stop the roof from tipping and maybe der is some way I could cut higher up and still get a 10mm15mm thick face and rowel through the horizontal. 

I am sorry I have typed that quick and don't have time to do the drawing now and check what I just wrote but as you know it will properly b like jmb speak any way! I gotta take my girlfriend out for dinner as it's valentines day of corse!

Jmv

 

[Guy Ashley]

John

I suggested a chain morticer as I just had this vision of him sitting astride an 8" x 8" Green oak beam trying to chop out a mortice with a 3/4" chisel. [tongue] [tongue]

Like you wouldnt touch a free chain saw!

Poor boy is only used to butchering CLS!! [big grin] [big grin]

 

[windmill man]

Guy,
Few hours with a big maul an 8x8 in the rain will make a man of him.  [smile]

JMB
If the knee is split replace it(knee = curved piece)

Good man JMB got to keep the girls happy, about to get changed and out to dinner with the loved one myself.

Later John

 

[Craftsman]

These boring machines also do a good job of removing waste in a large timber mortise, then just square the sides with a framing chisel. They were pretty common before electric tools and a lot of them stll around and used. Although a chain mortiser is faster the cost of renting or buying may be pretty high.

 

[woodguy7]

Well, repair or replace or looks like a very cool project, one that i would love to get my teeth into.  Just dont price it too cheap.  Time can run away on you on a job like this.

I think if you listen to what John & Guy tell you then you wont go far wrong.

Hope you got flowers to go with that dinner 

Woodguy.