Over the years I've seen many discussions on this forum regarding alternatives to Festool and open discussions comparing the merits or faults of these products. These threads have included nearly every Festool product, including Tracksaws, Battery Drill/Impact Drivers, the CMS Router table, Routers, Multi-Function Table, Sanders, etc, etc... In light of the recent thread that was locked, I'm curious if these types of threads will be allowed moving forward?
Clarification on Rules Regarding Competitive Product Postings
- Thread starter woodie
- Start date
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2007
- Messages
- 8,426
We do not have rules on the forum, we have guidelines. The difference in my opinion is that guidelines are not inclusive of every single possible scenario, but general concepts for our forum members to follow.
The issue with the thread in question is that there were posts to another forum that advocates another power tool brand. Those links were edited to type around our forum's word filter. I had corresponded with Matt, owner of that forum, back in March that we would not allow promotion of his forum on the FOG.
Also, members were posting videos and links to content produced by a forum member who was banned, Sander who is the owner of a Mafell dealer in the Netherlands.
So, several of the forum guidelines were clearly broken in a single thread ending in the thread ultimately being locked.
Shane
The issue with the thread in question is that there were posts to another forum that advocates another power tool brand. Those links were edited to type around our forum's word filter. I had corresponded with Matt, owner of that forum, back in March that we would not allow promotion of his forum on the FOG.
Also, members were posting videos and links to content produced by a forum member who was banned, Sander who is the owner of a Mafell dealer in the Netherlands.
So, several of the forum guidelines were clearly broken in a single thread ending in the thread ultimately being locked.
Shane
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2007
- Messages
- 8,426
My post was edited after a PM exchange with a member who posted in the thread and I didn't want my post to be perceived in the wrong way.
In essence, it stated that I felt there was some strong promoting going on. That would include typing around the word filter to promote a forum that advocates another power tool brand.
Look guys, I think I was more than fair in how long the thread went on. I don't mind comparisons of other products, reviews of other brands, etc. But I think that thread clearly crossed a line.
Shane
In essence, it stated that I felt there was some strong promoting going on. That would include typing around the word filter to promote a forum that advocates another power tool brand.
Look guys, I think I was more than fair in how long the thread went on. I don't mind comparisons of other products, reviews of other brands, etc. But I think that thread clearly crossed a line.
Shane
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2007
- Messages
- 8,426
Paul G said:
I have nothing against posts or conversations about Mafell or their products. What I didn't want to happen is another thread to be started that was a continuation of the thread that was locked.
There are plenty of threads here about Mafell and their products.
I probably should have stepped in sooner and given some guidance or warnings, but I have been preoccupied and not been on the forum as much lately. So, I accept some of the responsibility.
Shane
i understand the problem with biased reviewing and all the sander trouble..
what i dont understand is the banning of links to the mafel forum. that makes no sence to me
is that ban covering all forums promoting (or run by ) competiting brands .
dewalt,bosch,etc have forums. can we post links to those forums
what i dont understand is the banning of links to the mafel forum. that makes no sence to me
is that ban covering all forums promoting (or run by ) competiting brands .
dewalt,bosch,etc have forums. can we post links to those forums
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2007
- Messages
- 8,426
Alan, I think this is something that will be left to the discretion of myself and the moderators. It will depend on the circumstances.
In this particular case, myself and GhostFist had corresponded offline (6 months ago) that we would not allow his forum to be promoted here. I'd like to publicly thank him for his professionalism and understanding.
Shane
In this particular case, myself and GhostFist had corresponded offline (6 months ago) that we would not allow his forum to be promoted here. I'd like to publicly thank him for his professionalism and understanding.
Shane
shane as you are aware it was I who "typed around the word filter", I did this to try to help fidelfs clarify his link, I had hoped at the time that there was a software glitch but given the recent history of suppressed and locked threads I also had a underlying suspicion of something else afoot, regrettebly this has turned out to be true.
I,like most others I assume, was not privy to your correspondence with ghostfist of six months ago and so did not know that the mafell users forum was banned or that you had a system already in place(word filter) to suppress mention or knowledge of the mafell users forum. I do not think linking to a forum(instigated and ran by unpaid enthusiasts)in a section titled 'other tools' equates with linking to a competiters website, people on the mafell forum are,(just as in this forum), interested in elite powertools,no one is being paid or has self interest in "promoting" mafell. most mafell enthusiasts are also festool enthusiasts(this includes myself), and it would be a pity if free speech about all elite tools could not be aired on this forum. banning or suppressing knowledge is surely not the best way forward,especially in a forum based in the country that does the most on the world stage to promote freedom.
I,like most others I assume, was not privy to your correspondence with ghostfist of six months ago and so did not know that the mafell users forum was banned or that you had a system already in place(word filter) to suppress mention or knowledge of the mafell users forum. I do not think linking to a forum(instigated and ran by unpaid enthusiasts)in a section titled 'other tools' equates with linking to a competiters website, people on the mafell forum are,(just as in this forum), interested in elite powertools,no one is being paid or has self interest in "promoting" mafell. most mafell enthusiasts are also festool enthusiasts(this includes myself), and it would be a pity if free speech about all elite tools could not be aired on this forum. banning or suppressing knowledge is surely not the best way forward,especially in a forum based in the country that does the most on the world stage to promote freedom.
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2007
- Messages
- 8,426
Some members may not agree with my decision to lock the thread. If that's the case, my apologies. I took personal responsibility in my previous post and said that I should have done a better job monitoring the thread and issuing warnings. I concur that members were not proactively made aware of the word filter addition, but it's not forum policy to publish a list of filtered words or links.
For what it's worth, I've gotten several PMs stating that members were surprised that I let the thread go as long as it did. And, both moderators were in favor of locking the thread.
I doubt any other company run forum would allow that thread to have existed at all. So, your idea of freedom of speech may be idealistic. I suspect if you are a businessman, you would not allow the clients of your competitors to post links to your competitors' websites on your website.
The members participating in that thread, or reading this one, are now aware that there's another forum that exists if they want to share their enthusiasm for Mafell. I hope that's not taken as snide, but as sincere. The FOG is a place for talking about Festool power tools, general tool use and other related topics, not a place for enthusiasts of other brands to endorse competitive products and websites. I do think I let the thread progress far enough that it can be used as a resource for anyone considering the pros and cons of the Mafell.
I think I've clearly stated the reasons for the locked thread and hopefully offered answers to the questions asked. I'm not sure that I have anything else to add.
Shane
For what it's worth, I've gotten several PMs stating that members were surprised that I let the thread go as long as it did. And, both moderators were in favor of locking the thread.
I doubt any other company run forum would allow that thread to have existed at all. So, your idea of freedom of speech may be idealistic. I suspect if you are a businessman, you would not allow the clients of your competitors to post links to your competitors' websites on your website.
The members participating in that thread, or reading this one, are now aware that there's another forum that exists if they want to share their enthusiasm for Mafell. I hope that's not taken as snide, but as sincere. The FOG is a place for talking about Festool power tools, general tool use and other related topics, not a place for enthusiasts of other brands to endorse competitive products and websites. I do think I let the thread progress far enough that it can be used as a resource for anyone considering the pros and cons of the Mafell.
I think I've clearly stated the reasons for the locked thread and hopefully offered answers to the questions asked. I'm not sure that I have anything else to add.
Shane
Nothing else needs to be said, Shane. You, and Festool, have given great latitude for open discussion of competitive products. I don't believe anyone should expect you to run the forum in a way that is counter to your own best interest. None of us who run businesses would do any different.
Shane Holland said:
it would seem then that the 'other tools' section of this forum is superfluous if no discussion about other manufacturers tools are to be permitted. I still believe there is a big difference in linking to an unpaid enthusiasts forum and linking to a competitors website/forum or competitor retailer especially when there is no self interest involved. in my opinion suppression of this type will leave a bad taste in the mouths of many here and cause them to seek other forums were all views can be heard.
It seems to me that you are saying that prohibiting links to sites associated with competitor tools is the same as banning any discussion of other tools. I believe that you are stretching a point beyond what is reasonable. There are numerous of posts here about the advantages of other tools. I see no reason why Festool should be required to allow links to those other sites which essentially promote competitive tools, even if they are not company sites.
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2007
- Messages
- 13,125
skinee said:
Personally I think you are going overboard on this. Discussion about tools from other manufacturers have always been acceptable. Even then there are limits.
Anyone who has ever set up a blog or even a Facebook page has to deal with limits or acceptable posting and the perceived "freedom of speech". If you set up a website / blog regarding something that you made, would you allow your competitors or others to post links to either their products or to websites on it? I don't think so. This situation was discussed in private months ago with the administrator and the current situation ended up morphing into something different.
It happens.
Peter
Frank Pellow
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2007
- Messages
- 2,743
skinee said:
That's not what Shane said.
I have often discussed tools made by other manufacturers here in this forum and have even said that I preferred some of those tools to Festool tools or some aspects of those tools to aspects of Festool tools. No one in Festool has ever censored or even complained about any of these things that I have written.
I'm not sure I follow the logic... there are several threads, two of which are currently in the "recent post" section, that link to external sites for competetive product. A few of these links even go to e-commerce sights where you can buy the competitors product. How is this consistent with the statements above? I'm not trying to berate Festool or Shane here I was just trying to understand what is or isn't allowed. Reading between the lines, I have my answer.
Slappy
Member
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2013
- Messages
- 564
not to kick the hornets nest again or anything,
but really this a privately owned forum & there is no right to freedom of speech,
everyone agreed to the terms of service to register & post
It's the forum owners or their employees that set how the forum operates & set the guidelines .
they can adjust those rules ,guidelines, policies at anytime they feel the need to do so.
The mods here are more than fair , lenient , understanding .
I am on forums that are far more demanding that do not allow any links to the competition at all .
but really this a privately owned forum & there is no right to freedom of speech,
everyone agreed to the terms of service to register & post
It's the forum owners or their employees that set how the forum operates & set the guidelines .
they can adjust those rules ,guidelines, policies at anytime they feel the need to do so.
The mods here are more than fair , lenient , understanding .
I am on forums that are far more demanding that do not allow any links to the competition at all .
rmwarren
Member
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2010
- Messages
- 3,063
Slappy said:
Totally agree. I myself ran afoul of the forum guidelines and Shane dealt with the infraction in a fair and even handed manner. The FOG is a great resource, provided by FestoolUSA at some expense, and it is ultimately an investment in their business.
RMW
AlexThePalex
Member
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2008
- Messages
- 7,808
I am generally against any form of censorship, but given the rules of proper entrepreneurism in this case I agree with Shane's decision. Everybody knows there's ample space on this forum to talk about competitor's tools, but sometimes it just goes too far and I can see how this was one of those times. The entire thread turned into nothing more than one giant infomercial for a competitor's product, and that would simply hurt Festool's commercial interests.
I am often surprised at how much room is given here on the FOG to discuss Mafell products.
I am often surprised at how much room is given here on the FOG to discuss Mafell products.
