Clarification on Rules Regarding Competitive Product Postings

[RC]

I just find this sad since clearly Mafell as a tool make either due to building similar quality tools and/or having that irritating dealer in Holland who tried to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) about the Carvex or a combination of the above has gained the ire of Festool USA and by extension Shane & the mods here.

Its just very lopsided that any mention of Mafell tools are nowadays hushed whereas similar tools and discussions about Bosch, Makita, etc. tools are still universally accepted.

I just find this very two-faced of FOG to try to silence talk about similar or possibly even more advanced tool makes in the segments they operate them selves while at the same time letting discussion of 'lesser tools' tools to flourish as long as they get worse reviews than Festools. Makes me wonder how much of their marketing power is leaning on Shane at the moment and stifling free speech of their own customers and comparisons between real options to their products.

What makes this position especially hard to understand is that if I understand correctly Mafell doesn't have a proper dealership chain nor support in NA (nor in most countries outside Germany as far as I understand) so its a fringe make to serious business users anyway?

I fully support the locking and deletition of the clearly malicious thread by that Sander fellow, but to my understanding this thread posted and closed was by a long time FOG user that has no connections to Mafell other than buying his tool with money and being impressed by it.

Thankfully there still exists other forums like talkfestool that to my knowledge are not funded or run by a tool company and maybe discussions like this should be moved there?

 

[SittingElf]

it would seem then that the 'other tools' section of this forum is superfluous if no discussion about other manufacturers tools are to be permitted. I still believe there is a big  difference in linking to an unpaid enthusiasts forum and linking to a competitors website/forum or competitor retailer especially when there is no self interest involved.  in my opinion suppression of this type will leave a bad taste in the mouths of many here and cause them to seek other forums were all views can be heard.

My own impression since joining FOG is that the "other tools and accessories" section was probably originally created to have a place to discuss tools, supplies, and accessories that Festool DOESN'T offer.  Table saws, bandsaws, jointers, planers, clamps, jigs, air tools, compressors, glues, lathes, paints, finishing products and other items that together with the Festool items can enhance production and woodworking in general.  Certainly there would be some things for which comparing apples to apples might be appropriate.. (ie the Carvex vs the others topic), but I am in full support of FOG for barring posts that clearly represent another product as superior, AND actively promote their purchase over the Festool model. That is the purpose for a forum run by either the competing company, or fans of their products. FOG is not the venue for those promotions in my opinion. [2cents]

That all being said, there is simply no question that Ryobi products are so superior to Festool's that it is amazing that people buy the green stuff at all! All the comparison tests agree. And Harbor Freight tools are a close second in quality, performance, fit and finish. Can't be denied! [drooling] [wink]

Sincerely,

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[AlexThePalex]

Its just very lopsided that any mention of Mafell tools are nowadays hushed whereas similar tools and discussions about Bosch, Makita, etc. tools are still universally accepted.

I disagree, the Mafell thread dominated FOG's "recent posts" listing for the last 2 weeks so there's nothing being hushed.

I've noticed the last 6 months that the Mafell subject comes up abundantly more than any other tool brand in comparison, so no, there's nothing "universally" about it. It has come to the point that SittingElf words quite nicely:

posts that clearly represent another product as superior, AND actively promote their purchase over the Festool model. That is the purpose for a forum run by either the competing company, or fans of their products. FOG is not the venue for those promotions in my opinion. [2cents]

It would be very bad business practice of a company to let that go on forever.

 

[Tim Brennan]

At first the locking of that thread did leave a bad taste in my mouth. I have been enjoying the forums a lot since I joined just a few weeks ago and at first glance It came off as being over defensive and unreasonable.

Now that I have read this thread I can see why it was necessary.

At first I was thinking surely only posts that were against the guidelines should have been edited. Now I see that there was no moderation for a period of time. this explains the situation. Perhaps this should be said in that closing post to clarify why it was locked, otherwise others might get the wrong impression too.

The bit about not starting another thread was the thing that I really didn't like. It comes across to a newcomer as not wanting to ever favourably mention the competition. The regulars might know this to not be the case but for people who aren't familiar with the forum, it could be damaging for Festool's community and brand image.

 

[Stephen B]

I have had a post removed in the past so I understand the shock and surprise for some members at the Mafell thread being locked.

However, I was amaized that the thread went on for so long as it became obvious, even from the title, that those with a Mafell 'interest' used an opportunity during the 55 'recall'. It may have started innocently but soon changed.

In a recent post I sought advice on how to connect a non Festool sander to a Festool Vac. I use this as an example of how the Other Tools section can be used. If I had said that this sander was superior to its Festool equivalent, which it is not, that would have been inappropriate. At other times, members including me, have stated that they use a certain non-Festool tool, not for example, because it is necessarily superior but for the amount of use the additional cost is not justified. Again in this type of post in most cases the Festool product is not being 'bagged'.

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

I appreciate the feedback on my post in the thread about locking it.

While I try to do my best to use the correct language to convey my thoughts, sometimes it does not come across the way intended. When I asked that a new thread not be started, what I meant was a continuation of the same conversation, essentially sidestepping the lock. I have edited my post according, striking out the original text for everyone to see what was originally there.

I do the best I can to make the forum a great resource and a friendly place. Sometimes there are tough decisions that I have to make. Remember that I'm just human and a guy trying to do his job. Trust me, there are days when it's not fun to be the forum administrator. I do my best to strike a good balance here and I hope that's seen by the majority.

Shane

 

[Paul G]

I appreciate the feedback on my post in the thread about locking it.

While I try to do my best to use the correct language to convey my thoughts, sometimes it does not come across the way intended. When I asked that a new thread not be started, what I meant was a continuation of the same conversation, essentially sidestepping the lock. I have edited my post according, striking out the original text for everyone to see what was originally there.

I do the best I can to make the forum a great resource and a friendly place. Sometimes there are tough decisions that I have to make. Remember that I'm just human and a guy trying to do his job. Trust me, there are days when it's not fun to be the forum administrator. I do my best to strike a good balance here and I hope that's seen by the majority.

Shane

Shane, that answers my question and clears up my confusion, thanks.

 

[RKA]

At first the locking of that thread did leave a bad taste in my mouth. I have been enjoying the forums a lot since I joined just a few weeks ago and at first glance It came off as being over defensive and unreasonable.

Now that I have read this thread I can see why it was necessary.

At first I was thinking surely only posts that were against the guidelines should have been edited. Now I see that there was no moderation for a period of time. this explains the situation. Perhaps this should be said in that closing post to clarify why it was locked, otherwise others might get the wrong impression too.

The bit about not starting another thread was the thing that I really didn't like. It comes across to a newcomer as not wanting to ever favourably mention the competition. The regulars might know this to not be the case but for people who aren't familiar with the forum, it could be damaging for Festool's community and brand image.

Tim,
Thank you for saying that.  That's exactly how it came across to this newb.  Shane has adequately explained and it makes perfect sense to me now (not being aware of the backstory until I read this).  So thanks to you too Shane!

It's a shame that others in this thread perceive discussions about competing products as something subversive.  I would ask you to give people the benefit of the doubt.  I participated in that thread, it was helpful to me, but in all likelihood, I won't bring up that product again because of the comments made here.  Take a minute to consider the impression your comments may have left with me (and others). 
Raj

 

[Sparktrician]

I appreciate the feedback on my post in the thread about locking it.

While I try to do my best to use the correct language to convey my thoughts, sometimes it does not come across the way intended. When I asked that a new thread not be started, what I meant was a continuation of the same conversation, essentially sidestepping the lock. I have edited my post according, striking out the original text for everyone to see what was originally there.

I do the best I can to make the forum a great resource and a friendly place. Sometimes there are tough decisions that I have to make. Remember that I'm just human and a guy trying to do his job. Trust me, there are days when it's not fun to be the forum administrator. I do my best to strike a good balance here and I hope that's seen by the majority.

Shane

I've got to give you credit for your even-handedness at running the FOG, Shane.  I ran several Federal Government BBSs ~20 years ago, so I appreciate the balance that you have to maintain. 

 

[Kevin D.]

I've come to see forums as somebody's house.  They invite you in, and the company they keep and what they allow determines whether you want to stay, or the host themselves ask you to leave.  It's that simple!

While I do think myself that the Mafell thread went on far too long, nobody's perfect!  Including the outstanding staff of this forum, who imo make this forum one of the best at managing it's 'houseguests' in the woodworking internet world. 

Keep in mind, this 'house' is owned by the tool manufacturer.  Step in their shoes for two minutes and think about what you would allow if you were them.  They're more than generous imo!

 

[Slappy]

I've come to see forums as somebody's house.  They invite you in, and the company they keep and what they allow determines whether you want to stay, or the host themselves ask you to leave.  It's that simple!

While I do think myself that the Mafell thread went on far too long, nobody's perfect!  Including the outstanding staff of this forum, who imo make this forum one of the best at managing it's 'houseguests' in the woodworking internet world. 

Keep in mind, this 'house' is owned by the tool manufacturer.  Step in their shoes for two minutes and think about what you would allow if you were them.  They're more than generous imo!

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