ClearVue Fire Warning!

[JonathanJung]

*Don't start the motor more than 4 times per hour*

If you have a dust collector with a Leeson motor, such as I have on my 5hp ClearVue, that's the word of caution, right from the owner of ClearVue.

A week ago the motor on mine caught fire, nearly started my ceiling on fire. After much back and forth, overnighting a motor (this is my living), talking with Leeson, Clearvue, and others, it seems that starting/stopping too soon overheats the motor from the starting windings. So, don't start it up more than a few times every hour. This is exactly what the owner of ClearVue told me. Naturally, I was pissed and pointed out to him that this is not stated anywhere on their website or product manual. His response? "Yeah, I need to get someone on that."

So nearly $600 later I have a replacement motor, and to avoid burning it out too, I have to remember all day long not to cycle the unit on/off. The first motor lasted only 8 months of regular use, so fingers crossed this next one will be a champion.

Secondary moral to the story, never buy equipment needed to run for a living from a hobby-orientated company that doesn't stand behind its product. Hopefully a more commercially-targeted company would have such necessary info laid out.

 

[ChuckM]

Based on what I can see in your post, isn't the merchant liable in a lawsuit (say, a house burnt down) for not giving a critical piece of product safety info.?

On the other hand, such operating limitation might affect future sales.

 

[Bernmc]

pretty good argument for running a 3 phase motor and a VFD - that way you don't need to stop the motor. Just drop the revs way down with the VFD, and back up to full speed when you need the suction.

 

[Mini Me]

pretty good argument for running a 3 phase motor and a VFD - that way you don't need to stop the motor. Just drop the revs way down with the VFD, and back up to full speed when you need the suction.

I second that Bernard. Over the years of dealing with this stuff the only way I would buy a single phase DE is with a gun pointed at my head. A VFD allows you to manage the DE by soft starts and instant speed and noise control. I start mine with no regard to times per hour and I often at a guess start it at least ten times per hour. The motor is a Leeson that is ten years old and has not given any signs of trouble.

 

[Bob D.]

*Don't start the motor more than 4 times per hour*

Does this carry over to other single phase 5hp or even 3hp motors like you would find in a table saw? How many of us have a TS with a 5hp motor, probably more than have a 5hp DE. My TS is only 3hp, but I don't recall reading anything that warned of repeated starts/stops or to being limited to any set number of starts per hour. I have often started my TS motor a dozen or more times in an hour. It's not the type of machine you want to leave running when not directly in use as we all know. So there must be some difference in the motors. What about other heavy iron in the shop with large motors.

Unrelated but a place I worked in the past had some huge, 2000hp motors that turned some equally sized pumps. The starting procedure only allowed one start every 45 minutes IF the winding temperature had dropped to some specified temp which I don't recall. The windings have thermocouples embedded in them to monitor temp at all times. I don't remember the starting amp draw but running I believe they were around 190A @ 4160v.

That would make a heck of a dust collector IF you could afford the electric.  [eek]

 

[kevinculle]

That seems a non-sensical constraint for a dust collector.  I have a 2HP, 1100 CFM unit that I routinely start and stop many times an hour...15-20 times would not be at all unusual as I work my way through operations on different machines.  It sounds like the motor duty cycle has not been properly matched to the typical operating regime of a dust collector.

 

[DeformedTree]

Secondary moral to the story, never buy equipment needed to run for a living from a hobby-orientated company that doesn't stand behind its product. Hopefully a more commercially-targeted company would have such necessary info laid out.

This stands for most things. It's why you pay more for a big company most the time, but you get something that has had more design/testing/etc put into it (most the time, even big companies make mistakes). A lot of small companies, or 1 man operations are often started from "I could make that, and do it for less" mentality. Which is often what gets to the situation you have.

They have undersized the motor.  Maybe this was to save cost, or maybe a bigger motor would have too much inrush current. This can be managed with controls, but that is more money, or a separate small cooling fan, or a motor with bigger heat sink, or cooling.

Even if they did put the on/off limits in documentation (which would obviously kill sales), it's a ridiculous limit. Unless they put controls limits in there that prevent the user from doing it. If they have temp monitoring that prevented start, and or a soft shut down to let it cool down, then they could be in a better spot. But telling user they have to operate it in a special way, just will not work.

 

[Bob D.]

"But telling user they have to operate it in a special way, just will not work."

Especially since people in general are bad at reading manuals and following written instructions. And I am guilty of it my self with some things I buy, mostly low-priced electronic gizmos. I doubt any of us reads everything supplied with every device we buy or use.

 

[Mike Goetzke]

I've had my CV1800 for 15 years now. I purchased it when it was under previous ownership. At that time I remember when installing mine I had an issue and the owner called me back on not only a Saturday but it was also the 4th of July. Maybe things have changed under new management. I'll take a look at my dated instructions but somehow I'm aware it doesn't like lots of starts/stops. I'm a hobbyist and in the habit of not shutting it down often. Like others say it has to do with the high startup current getting the high inertia blower up to speed.

 

[ChuckM]

"But telling user they have to operate it in a special way, just will not work."

Especially since people in general are bad at reading manuals and following written instructions. And I am guilty of it my self with some things I buy, mostly low-priced electronic gizmos. I doubt any of us reads everything supplied with every device we buy or use.

I must be one of the exceptions, partly because in a previous professional life, I produced manuals, or supervised and authorized the production of manuals as part of my responsibilities. I may skip some sections of a manual for a common device that I'm already familiar with, but I go through a manual for a new purchase in general.

It's ok to me if a machine needs to be operated in a certain way, but that instruction needs to be spelt out clearly to an owner or user, especially it's something about safety. I use most of my machines or tools in a stop-go, stop-go manner repeatedly, such as the SawStop, DF500, drill press, Kapex, cordless drills and routers. Oh well, too many to list out all of them...mine is not a production shop. I don't want any noisy machines running for no good reasons.

 

[Cheese]

....this is not stated anywhere on their website or product manual. His response? "Yeah, I need to get someone on that."

Sounds to me that he should direct someone into finding a substitute motor instead.  [scratch chin]

Selling this type of equipment with this type of operating directive is ludicrous. Just swap the Leeson for a Baldor motor, there isn't that much difference in cost.

 

[egmiii]

It appears there is a bit of Clearvue bashing going on and I'd like to share my experience for those who stumble across this thread in the future.

They are a great company who stands behind the product. I've had several interactions with their sales and support staff. They are very helpful and knowledgeable.

The CV1800 provides a level of performance unmatched by anything close to it's price point. You will likely need to spend 3x as much to beat it. Plenty of production shops run them successfully.

Contrary to previous posts, the 5HP motor is adequately sized. It is of high quality. You should not start single phase 5HP and up motors with heavy fans/flywheels/etc attached more than 4-5 times per hour. The startup current is very high and will cook the windings. A Baldor would suffer the same fate. A 5HP table saw uses far less current because the blade weighs a fraction of what a dust collector fan weighs, so you can start and stop more often. If you would like to start and stop a 5HP and up motor more often, then you should use a 3 phase motor and programable VFD. You can program the motor to gently ramp up to full speed over a 10 second window. Clearvue has a 3 phase motor option. It's quite common in countries with 50hz power, as they use the VFD to generate 60hz power to maximize performance.

Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation, but in their defense, it's fairly common knowledge amongst those familiar with industrial equipment. Yes, many hobbyists install them in their home shops, but this doesn't detract from the fact that it is a serious piece of equipment and should be treated with respect. Do your homework, and if you are not comfortable, but still need the performance, consider a more plug and play unit like the Felder RL200.

 

[Banana]

I certainly don't have all the information but if you are selling a motor that has a limited duty cycle then it seems only common sense that you would include built in thermal/overload protection if fire or permanent damage is a likely outcome, no?

 

[JonathanJung]

It appears there is a bit of Clearvue bashing going on and I'd like to share my experience for those who stumble across this thread in the future.

They are a great company who stands behind the product. I've had several interactions with their sales and support staff. They are very helpful and knowledgeable.

The CV1800 provides a level of performance unmatched by anything close to it's price point. You will likely need to spend 3x as much to beat it. Plenty of production shops run them successfully.

Contrary to previous posts, the 5HP motor is adequately sized. It is of high quality. You should not start single phase 5HP and up motors with heavy fans/flywheels/etc attached more than 4-5 times per hour. The startup current is very high and will cook the windings. A Baldor would suffer the same fate. A 5HP table saw uses far less current because the blade weighs a fraction of what a dust collector fan weighs, so you can start and stop more often. If you would like to start and stop a 5HP and up motor more often, then you should use a 3 phase motor and programable VFD. You can program the motor to gently ramp up to full speed over a 10 second window. Clearvue has a 3 phase motor option. It's quite common in countries with 50hz power, as they use the VFD to generate 60hz power to maximize performance.

Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation, but in their defense, it's fairly common knowledge amongst those familiar with industrial equipment. Yes, many hobbyists install them in their home shops, but this doesn't detract from the fact that it is a serious piece of equipment and should be treated with respect. Do your homework, and if you are not comfortable, but still need the performance, consider a more plug and play unit like the Felder RL200.

I'm with you on all that, the motor is fine, cycling limits is fine, the machine is good value, but I don't see ClearVue standing behind their product. To learn everything you just told me, I had to go directly to a Leeson service center and talk to a tech. Only then was it explained to me what's going on. I'm fine with a product having limited cycles per hour, but the customer needs to be informed! And not after the fact, but right up front. That's what is so sad about ClearVue's owner's response. He admitted that they've known for years about all this, but haven't done anything to educate their customers.

To give you all an idea of how limited Jason's (the Owner of Cleavue) knowledge is about motors, when I asked him if a 3ph motor would be better, he said he doesn't know much about that.

Hmm. And he's the guy who answers all tech calls.

 

[JonathanJung]

*Don't start the motor more than 4 times per hour*

Does this carry over to other single phase 5hp or even 3hp motors like you would find in a table saw? How many of us have a TS with a 5hp motor, probably more than have a 5hp DE. My TS is only 3hp, but I don't recall reading anything that warned of repeated starts/stops or to being limited to any set number of starts per hour. I have often started my TS motor a dozen or more times in an hour. It's not the type of machine you want to leave running when not directly in use as we all know. So there must be some difference in the motors. What about other heavy iron in the shop with large motors.

Unrelated but a place I worked in the past had some huge, 2000hp motors that turned some equally sized pumps. The starting procedure only allowed one start every 45 minutes IF the winding temperature had dropped to some specified temp which I don't recall. The windings have thermocouples embedded in them to monitor temp at all times. I don't remember the starting amp draw but running I believe they were around 190A @ 4160v.

That would make a heck of a dust collector IF you could afford the electric.  [eek]

It has been explained to me by the Leeson tech why other machines can start much more often. They have less load. A blade on a TS or a head on a planer has little resistance compared to a massive fan. There's hardly another machine in the shop that comes close to the startup load by the 16" impeller in the DC. My 37" dual head drum sander probably is as much if not more, but it would be odd to start that up more than a couple times an hour.

For this reason, it is best to start the DC with all blast gates closed.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation, but in their defense, it's fairly common knowledge amongst those familiar with industrial equipment. Yes, many hobbyists install them in their home shops, but this doesn't detract from the fact that it is a serious piece of equipment and should be treated with respect.

How can anyone treat a machine with the respect it deserves if they, as a user, are not properly informed by the merchant in the first place? ???

 

[JonathanJung]

Exactly right. Expecting to sell to hobbyists with knowledge about operating industrial equipment is not just illogical, but foolish.

 

[egmiii]

Exactly right. Expecting to sell to hobbyists with knowledge about operating industrial equipment is not just illogical, but foolish.

Maybe. Personally I wouldn't take the risk owning this business, but they have decided to serve a market that clearly exists - hobbyists who seek an industrial class dust collector at an affordable price. I'm thankful I had the opportunity to buy one as I'm sure many others are.

 

[DeformedTree]

It appears there is a bit of Clearvue bashing going on and I'd like to share my experience for those who stumble across this thread in the future.

They are a great company who stands behind the product. I've had several interactions with their sales and support staff. They are very helpful and knowledgeable.

The CV1800 provides a level of performance unmatched by anything close to it's price point. You will likely need to spend 3x as much to beat it. Plenty of production shops run them successfully.

Contrary to previous posts, the 5HP motor is adequately sized. It is of high quality. You should not start single phase 5HP and up motors with heavy fans/flywheels/etc attached more than 4-5 times per hour. The startup current is very high and will cook the windings. A Baldor would suffer the same fate. A 5HP table saw uses far less current because the blade weighs a fraction of what a dust collector fan weighs, so you can start and stop more often. If you would like to start and stop a 5HP and up motor more often, then you should use a 3 phase motor and programable VFD. You can program the motor to gently ramp up to full speed over a 10 second window. Clearvue has a 3 phase motor option. It's quite common in countries with 50hz power, as they use the VFD to generate 60hz power to maximize performance.

Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation, but in their defense, it's fairly common knowledge amongst those familiar with industrial equipment. Yes, many hobbyists install them in their home shops, but this doesn't detract from the fact that it is a serious piece of equipment and should be treated with respect. Do your homework, and if you are not comfortable, but still need the performance, consider a more plug and play unit like the Felder RL200.

Motor can be adequately sized, just not adequately controlled. If the user can easily do something they destroys it or creates a safety issue (fire), there is a problem. Just putting instructions in the manual is not acceptable. This is why products all around us have various "features", as the lawyers for those companies learned you can't just tell a user "don't do this", you have to stop them from being able to do it.  Turning something on and off too often doesn't fall under a case of obvious mis-use of the product.

The product may be much cheaper than other products out there, but if it's cheaper because they didn't put the money into a proper control system, then none of that matters. Back to my comment about "I can do the same for less".

"common industrial knowledge" doesn't mean anything and has no place here.  You sell a product, you have to understand liability for it. It absolutely needs to be covered in the manual, and needs to have a label right on the machine notifying the user. But really the issue needs to be eliminated.  I'm curious if this has any UL rating to it (the product, not the motor).

 

[egmiii]

Motor can be adequately sized, just not adequately controlled. If the user can easily do something they destroys it or creates a safety issue (fire), there is a problem. Just putting instructions in the manual is not acceptable. This is why products all around us have various "features", as the lawyers for those companies learned you can't just tell a user "don't do this", you have to stop them from being able to do it.  Turning something on and off too often doesn't fall under a case of obvious mis-use of the product.

I disagree. Your table saw/router manual probably says it's for cutting wood products only. Does your router stop you from feeding in a piece of plate steel? Should I try cutting a sheet of glass on the saw? By your logic, the saw shouldn't allow me to do that, even though the manual says not to. As you move into product categories that require some specialized knowledge to operate, some responsibility has to fall upon the owner/operator.

"common industrial knowledge" doesn't mean anything and has no place here.  You sell a product, you have to understand liability for it. It absolutely needs to be covered in the manual, and needs to have a label right on the machine notifying the user. But really the issue needs to be eliminated.  I'm curious if this has any UL rating to it (the product, not the motor).

The first thing I said was "Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation", so I agree it should be there. I'm not sure how much experience you have in the world of industrial machinery, but assumptions are made on the base level of product knowledge by end users. General warnings in the manual written by lawyers cover the obvious stuff, but they can't cover everything. Never doubt the ingenuity of an idiot.