ClearVue Fire Warning!

[squall_line]

The first thing I said was "Granted, Clearvue should add this information to their documentation", so I agree it should be there. I'm not sure how much experience you have in the world of industrial machinery, but assumptions are made on the base level of product knowledge by end users. General warnings in the manual written by lawyers cover the obvious stuff, but they can't cover everything. Never doubt the ingenuity of an idiot.

Given lead times on user manuals (depending on how they're produced), updating the website and adding a sticker to the unit itself seems like a pretty good interim solution.  It bothered me at least a little bit to read "yeah, I've been meaning to have someone do that" as the response.

Of course, that's also my response way more often than I would like it to be, so it brings up feelings of guilt when I hear someone else say it.

 

[DeformedTree]

You can mis-use anything.  The big key is when a system/device/feature/etc can be made and put in place to prevent something. In this case, they very much can stop/prevent the issues with controls. Thermal switches/limiters are not anything special. When there are systems that can be put on to prevent the issue and the manufacture does not, that is where they get in trouble.

Turning something on and off is not something that is expected to cause an issue. Plus if the result was just shorter life of product, then it wouldn't be that big of a deal. It's that this is a fire hazard that makes this a serious issue. And the manufacture clearly knows there is an issue.

If someone turns a light on and off non stop and it fry's the bulb, they replace the bulb and move on. If someone turns a light on and off and it burns the house down, there are major lawsuits.

They are selling these to anyone. If they do think this is an acceptable situation, they better have a tag at the power switch that has to be removed by the owner were "by removing you acknowledge....." .  But that doesn't do anything to help the next owner, next user, etc.

Using the dust extractor isn't requiring someone to be licensed/take a training program and get a cert/etc.  So you cannot expect a user to have special knowledge.  If this was an industrial environment, and this was the situation, all users would have to go thru training, sign acknowledgements, etc.

 

[egmiii]

You do realize the Clearvue is a kit, right? Anyone can buy it, but that doesn't mean anyone should. This is not a mass market item like a light bulb. It doesn't come with a power switch, or cord. You have to wire it into your own homebrew switch gear, or buy their switch, which still requires line voltage wiring. You mount the impeller to the motor shaft, assemble the impeller shrouds, silicone and screw it all together, then mount it to your structure. If you don't have specialized knowledge/experience in equipment assembly, there is a strong possibility, if done wrong, it could come apart and kill you.

They source a reasonably priced 5HP motor, which doesn't include thermal overload switches (to my knowledge). I think they are smart enough to avoid the liability of modifying an existing (likely UL listed) motor to add their own. So they would need to source a motor with this feature already present, and control system sophisticated enough to alert the user. I'm not sure how much that would add to the cost, but I have several similar sized motors on other woodworking equipment that costs an order of magnitude more, and they do not offer this feature. If you start and stop them too often, the offboard capacitor melts down in the control box and you replace it.

Regularly inspect your motors, keep them free of sawdust buildup, and maintain adequate offsets from combustible materials and you should be fine. This is a common best practice across all woodworking machinery. Like I said before, they should amend the documentation and probably add a warning sticker. But I don't want to see the business unfairly destroyed from posts with eye catching taglines. It's a great product for the right customer.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Motor can be adequately sized, just not adequately controlled. If the user can easily do something they destroys it or creates a safety issue (fire), there is a problem. Just putting instructions in the manual is not acceptable. This is why products all around us have various "features", as the lawyers for those companies learned you can't just tell a user "don't do this", you have to stop them from being able to do it.  Turning something on and off too often doesn't fall under a case of obvious mis-use of the product.

I disagree. Your table saw/router manual probably says it's for cutting wood products only. Does your router stop you from feeding in a piece of plate steel? Should I try cutting a sheet of glass on the saw? By your logic, the saw shouldn't allow me to do that, even though the manual says not to. As you move into product categories that require some specialized knowledge to operate, some responsibility has to fall upon the owner/operator.

I disagree.

The examples you give are totally out of the scope of the tool's normal use. But turning a dust collector On and Off sure is, and should never under any circumstance lead to a dangerous situation. A mere mention in the manual is not acceptable, and certainly will not be in court, when it comes to that.

 

[egmiii]

Motor can be adequately sized, just not adequately controlled. If the user can easily do something they destroys it or creates a safety issue (fire), there is a problem. Just putting instructions in the manual is not acceptable. This is why products all around us have various "features", as the lawyers for those companies learned you can't just tell a user "don't do this", you have to stop them from being able to do it.  Turning something on and off too often doesn't fall under a case of obvious mis-use of the product.

I disagree. Your table saw/router manual probably says it's for cutting wood products only. Does your router stop you from feeding in a piece of plate steel? Should I try cutting a sheet of glass on the saw? By your logic, the saw shouldn't allow me to do that, even though the manual says not to. As you move into product categories that require some specialized knowledge to operate, some responsibility has to fall upon the owner/operator.

I disagree.

The examples you give are totally out of the scope of the tool's normal use. But turning a dust collector On and Off sure is, and should never under any circumstance lead to a dangerous situation. A mere mention in the manual is not acceptable, and certainly will not be in court, when it comes to that.

How would I know that cutting steel and glass are "totally out of the scope of the tool's normal use"?

I was previously told ""common industrial knowledge" doesn't mean anything and has no place here.".

Seems like it does have a place...

 

[DeformedTree]

You do realize the Clearvue is a kit, right? Anyone can buy it, but that doesn't mean anyone should. This is not a mass market item like a light bulb. It doesn't come with a power switch, or cord. You have to wire it into your own homebrew switch gear, or buy their switch, which still requires line voltage wiring. You mount the impeller to the motor shaft, assemble the impeller shrouds, silicone and screw it all together, then mount it to your structure. If you don't have specialized knowledge/experience in equipment assembly, there is a strong possibility, if done wrong, it could come apart and kill you.

They source a reasonably priced 5HP motor, which doesn't include thermal overload switches (to my knowledge). I think they are smart enough to avoid the liability of modifying an existing (likely UL listed) motor to add their own. So they would need to source a motor with this feature already present, and control system sophisticated enough to alert the user. I'm not sure how much that would add to the cost, but I have several similar sized motors on other woodworking equipment that costs an order of magnitude more, and they do not offer this feature. If you start and stop them too often, the offboard capacitor melts down in the control box and you replace it.

Regularly inspect your motors, keep them free of sawdust buildup, and maintain adequate offsets from combustible materials and you should be fine. This is a common best practice across all woodworking machinery. Like I said before, they should amend the documentation and probably add a warning sticker. But I don't want to see the business unfairly destroyed from posts with eye catching taglines. It's a great product for the right customer.

So looking back I see it involves some assembly, they certainly don't call it a kit.  That doesn't change anything.  What will destroy a company is if they sell something that is a fire hazard and are not taking precautions. Further this is what kills off whole industries or paths for consumers. As a company not ensuring safety gives regulators a reason to prevent all such sales. We live in a world that loves to stop people from doing there own stuff. If you are going to sell something, you have to make sure it will be done right, everyone knows what is involved.  This is selling something so people don't have to roll their own. Giving businesses a pass on this sort of thing is exactly what will prevent any company from offering such systems in the future.

Remove personal attachment from a business. They can be great people, great service, etc.  They need at a minimum need to highlight this issue heavily throughout their documentation, but more realistically locate a motor that will support a thermal switch and make it part of the required kit. The first house that gets burned down will end their business. And worse for all, it could lead to bans of these motors, bans on homeowners wiring up large motors, bans on dust collectors in structure attached to homes......on and on.  They need to get this right. They acknowledge the issue from what the users have stated. So this isn't and over site, ignorance, etc.

Overheating motor, directly attached to fine dust in a high flow air stream is a terrible combination.

 

[cpw]

Oneida has a similar limitation; but it is included in the manual that you should not start the dust collector more than 6 times per hour.

I have an iVac system for my V-3000, and you need a switch that has modified "minimum run time" firmware to prevent repeated stop/start cycles.  [This is clearly on the iVac website as well.]

As long as you keep the motor running it is fine, it is just the large inrush current that is problematic.

 

[Svar]

So they would need to source a motor with this feature already present, and control system sophisticated enough to alert the user. I'm not sure how much that would add to the cost,

I'm sure it would cost less than burned down shop.
DC is a type of equipment which is turned on and off often, especially in a small shop. If it catches fire after being turned on more than 4 times an hour, then its back to the drawing board. Thermal protection, soft start, timed switch, I don't care. As it is it would be a deal breaker for me. The last thing I need is keeping track of when I switched my DC the last time.

 

[egmiii]

Oneida has a similar limitation; but it is included in the manual that you should not start the dust collector more than 6 times per hour.

I have an iVac system for my V-3000, and you need a switch that has modified "minimum run time" firmware to prevent repeated stop/start cycles.  [This is clearly on the iVac website as well.]

As long as you keep the motor running it is fine, it is just the large inrush current that is problematic.

Correct. I believe the documentation is the only thing that needs to be fixed by Clearvue. Others here believe they should redesign the product to a higher standard than is followed by other major manufacturers. It would be great if they offered an option for an electronics kit that would limit the number of startups. The consumer could decide if that feature is worth the extra money. I'm the farthest thing from a legal expert, but if Oneda, a much larger retailer, isn't mandating this feature, then I'm guessing there are adequate legal protections for them should an issue arise. Developing this control hardware has it's own set of costs, engineering and legal. A small company like Clearvue may not have the resources to fund such an effort.

 

[serge0n]

Correct. I believe the documentation is the only thing that needs to be fixed by Clearvue.

Seriously? So you are completely fine with the owner's response and the fact that [member=67785]JonathanJung[/member] had to call the motor manufacturer to find out what exactly happened? Do you find it acceptable that he had to pay for a motor replacement for a motor that started a fire due to lackluster documentation? His unit was still under warranty if I'm not mistaken.
I'd be furious if it happened to me and would demand free of charge replacement.
I'm completely familiar with the start/stop cycle limitation on powerful DCs, but it must be stated in the manual.

I'm honestly shocked at Clearvue's response. They are not owning this issue, they made their customer pay for the new motor and couldn't even provide a detailed explanation on why their own product needs to be operated in a certain way.
That's mom and dad shop's approach to customer service. I thought Clearvue was a much more reliable company than that.
I think this thread alone already cost Clearvue much more than the $600 that they have refused to cover.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
I think this thread alone already cost Clearvue much more than the $600 that they have refused to cover.

Not only won't I touch anything from that brand, I also won't recommend it IF my opinion is sought. (Compare this to a vehicle dealership fix I received for free -- at an invoiced amount of $800+ Cdn, just because the dealership couldn't be sure if the car problem was caused by me or by the shop after a regular service.)

Imagine what the reactions would have been if this thread's heading had read: "Loyal customer EXTREMELY happy that vendor replaced a $600 motor at no charge! And safety lesson learned."

 

[DeformedTree]

Correct. I believe the documentation is the only thing that needs to be fixed by Clearvue. Others here believe they should redesign the product to a higher standard than is followed by other major manufacturers. It would be great if they offered an option for an electronics kit that would limit the number of startups. The consumer could decide if that feature is worth the extra money. I'm the farthest thing from a legal expert, but if Oneda, a much larger retailer, isn't mandating this feature, then I'm guessing there are adequate legal protections for them should an issue arise. Developing this control hardware has it's own set of costs, engineering and legal. A small company like Clearvue may not have the resources to fund such an effort.

You don't sell something you can't properly design and support. If only companies that are bigger and sold more expensive products realized sooner they could get out of legal liability by being smaller, or selling the products cheaper.

If they don't want to sell with a different motor, they need to sell, or direct people to the correct hardware to run the motor correctly, and make absolutely clear the issue if they don't do this. Still, a responsible company, and one who gets good legal advice would not even go down a path like this.

Being small/etc is not an excuse, and doesn't get you out of a court room. "common industrial knowledge" defense will get you destroyed in court. 

 

[egmiii]

Seriously? So you are completely fine with the owner's response and the fact that [member=67785]JonathanJung[/member] had to call the motor manufacturer to find out what exactly happened? Do you find it acceptable that he had to pay for a motor replacement for a motor that started a fire due to lackluster documentation? His unit was still under warranty if I'm not mistaken.
I'd be furious if it happened to me and would demand free of charge replacement.
I'm completely familiar with the start/stop cycle limitation on powerful DCs, but it must be stated in the manual.

I'm honestly shocked at Clearvue's response. They are not owning this issue, they made their customer pay for the new motor and couldn't even provide a detailed explanation on why their own product needs to be operated in a certain way.
That's mom and dad shop's approach to customer service. I thought Clearvue was a much more reliable company than that.
I think this thread alone already cost Clearvue much more than the $600 that they have refused to cover.

Never said I was completely fine with the owners response. I merely stated that I have had positive interactions with them on numerous occasions. I was impressed with their knowledge and service.

Personally, I would have fixed the documentation long ago. And in this particular case, split the cost of a new motor. Clearvue does not have a warranty, other than it shows up as specified. They are under no obligation to meet your demand for a free replacement. The motor manufacturer has their own warranty, which the OP could have taken advantage of. But he needed a replacement next day as it was critical to the operation of the business. If you want industrial class performance and support, buy an Alko. If you want to save a few bucks, Clearvue has it's place.

 

[egmiii]

Not only won't I touch anything from that brand, I also won't recommend it IF my opinion is sought. (Compare this to a vehicle dealership fix I received for free -- at an invoiced amount of $800+ Cdn, just because the dealership couldn't be sure if the car problem was caused by me or by the shop after a regular service.)

Imagine what the reactions would have been if this thread's heading had read: "Loyal customer EXTREMELY happy that vendor replaced a $600 motor at no charge! And safety lesson learned."

And please tell me, which dust collector would you recommend that can pull 1500 CFM with an equivalent fine dust capture rate? How much does it cost? Certainly it won't be Oneida based upon your standards. How many Festool CT control boards were destroyed by the static discharge from their cyclone? How many owners here received a new Festool vac from Oneida?

 

[egmiii]

If they don't want to sell with a different motor, they need to sell, or direct people to the correct hardware to run the motor correctly, and make absolutely clear the issue if they don't do this.

Agree. Clearvue should make it known that frequent restarts in a short window are outside the design guidelines and provide an option to enforce this via a 3rd party control (should one be available).

Still, a responsible company, and one who gets good legal advice would not even go down a path like this.

Would you consider Oneida a responsible company? Their units have a similar design issue. Others have said it's mentioned in the manual, which is good, and what I believe Clearvue needs to do. But they do not sell every unit with electronics to correct the problem. Are they getting bad legal advice?

 

[serge0n]

Clearvue does not have a warranty, other than it shows up as specified.

I had no idea. So they are selling a DIY "I can do it for less" kit. Ok.

They are under no obligation to meet your demand for a free replacement.

Of course they are not obligated. But anyone who wants to grow their business and understands the impact of bad reviews would do it in a heartbeat.

If you want industrial class performance and support, buy an Alko. If you want to save a few bucks, Clearvue has it's place.

Or Oneida at x2 the price. Basically you get what you pay for. Yes, Clearvue has it's place, but the "I got your money, now you are on your own" mentality won't get them very far. I guess that's part of the reason why they remained such a small company for all these years. Which is really sad considering they have the winning cyclone design from the DC guru Bill Pentz.
I had them on my list of dust collector upgrades once I get a bigger shop, but not after this post. Looks like Oneida is the only real player in the professional (not industrial) dust collection game.

 

[ChuckM]

And please tell me, which dust collector would you recommend that can pull 1500 CFM with an equivalent fine dust capture rate? How much does it cost? Certainly it won't be Oneida based upon your standards. How many Festool CT control boards were destroyed by the static discharge from their cyclone? How many owners here received a new Festool vac from Oneida?

As a consumer, I won't let a merchant hold me hostage.

IF Festool's DF500 failed me, and Festool's customer service failed me, too, I wouldn't recommend the DF500 to anyone who asked me about it...knowing that no other Joiner machines are available. But there're alternative solutions that I can recommend such as Mafell, floating tenons (router and jig), etc. Same thing for dust collection -- there's more than one way to satisfy a need.

 

[AlexThePalex]

How would I know that cutting steel and glass are "totally out of the scope of the tool's normal use"?

Errrr, common sense?

I merely stated that I have had positive interactions with them on numerous occasions. I was impressed with their knowledge and service.

If I may ask, why would an average customer have numerous interactions with a company? Do their products break all the time, or are you a friend of the family?

Honestly, you start to sound like one of those bought and paid for 10 star IMDB reviews.

 

[serge0n]

And please tell me, which dust collector would you recommend that can pull 1500 CFM with an equivalent fine dust capture rate? How much does it cost? Certainly it won't be Oneida based upon your standards. How many Festool CT control boards were destroyed by the static discharge from their cyclone? How many owners here received a new Festool vac from Oneida?

Doesn't their Festool cyclone come with a grounding kit? I've never heard of this issue with static discharge burning up CT control boards. Wow.

I know you asked ChuckM about the DC recommendation, but I'd get a 5 HP Dust Gorilla from Oneida at $3700.
It seems to be much more expensive than a Clearvue solution, but let's take a closer look.

A comparable Clearvue CVMAX costs $2420. To get close to the same feature set as the Oneida you need to add:

• dust bin: $185
• wall mounting brackets: $55
• filter cleanout box: $85
• remote control: unobtanium, hire an electronics pro to wire up a relay (let's say $200)
• duct silencer: custom made, about $140
• dust bin sensor: $150

That's $815 extra. Total cost: $3235. Much closer to Oneida, which comes with a 2 year warranty and a smart boost controller.

 

[DeformedTree]

Would you consider Oneida a responsible company? Their units have a similar design issue. Others have said it's mentioned in the manual, which is good, and what I believe Clearvue needs to do. But they do not sell every unit with electronics to correct the problem. Are they getting bad legal advice?

It sounds like Oneida has taken some effort on this issue to address it. I don't know enough about the situation to know if it's apples to apples.  Giving people an option to create a hazard is not a good situation for any company to take. They may be in a similar situation, but have at least taken the first steps to reduce risks.

Your comments go back to things like cost. It doesn't matter if someone comes out with something cheaper if it's unsafe. From what I can see, Clearvue should not be selling this product as is. It has a straight up direct path to a loss of structure or worse loss of life. This isn't a miss-use of product situation.  They are selling something that can cause severe damage, they know this condition exist, and are doing nothing to mitigate/advise on it. Adding documentation alone very well is not enough to mitigate legal issues. If the product just broke, or damaged other components, that is bad, but the real issue is the safety of people and structures involved with this situation.

You can make a lot of products much cheaper if you throw away safety from the design. If it cost more to make it safe, that is what you do, end of story. If other similar products cost more, this is the sort of reason why. Kits and Plans, etc to help people get function for less cost are great, but if anyone or any company sells/promotes doing something that is unsafe, it's a quick way to have regulation kill it all off.

Companies would sell us lots of stuff if they could just sell us anything and shift any liability/accountability off to those who buy it. Think about about how much money companies like Festool spend to get their products UL certified, and thru similar organizations in various countries.  That's what it takes to do this sort of thing. If a company doesn't want to do things right, and ensure they are following regulations and so forth, they have no business selling products.

I would hate to be someone filing an insurance claim if one of these units caused a fire. They might find themselves not only not getting covered, but dropped by their insurance company for having one of these.