ClearVue Fire Warning!

[egmiii]

Doesn't their Festool cyclone come with a grounding kit? I've never heard of this issue with static discharge burning up CT control boards. Wow.

I know you asked ChuckM about the DC recommendation, but I'd get a 5 HP Dust Gorilla from Oneida at $3700.
It seems to be much more expensive than a Clearvue solution, but let's take a closer look.

A comparable Clearvue CVMAX costs $2420. To get close to the same feature set as the Oneida you need to add:

• dust bin: $185
• wall mounting brackets: $55
• filter cleanout box: $85
• remote control: unobtanium, hire an electronics pro to wire up a relay (let's say $200)
• duct silencer: custom made, about $140
• dust bin sensor: $150

That's $815 extra. Total cost: $3235. Much closer to Oneida, which comes with a 2 year warranty and a smart boost controller.

Search the FOG for the CT circuit board issue. Oneida fixed the problem with conductive hoses and grounding after users reported the issue, but to my knowledge, no one was compensated for damages. I'm just making the point that if people are going to walk away from Clearvue for not paying up, then they should also walk away from Oneida.

I believe you are comparing the wrong unit to the Oneida. The CVMax is a step up. The CV1800 is more of a comparable unit (15" impeller, 5HP, similar airflow). Current price is 2085 and it comes with everything you mentioned, except the drum. I purchased one locally for $25.  The drum sensor isn't included, but they usually will include it if you call and ask. So it's more like 2100 vs 3700. But like I suggested earlier, get the VFD and 3 phase motor for another $400 or so and never worry about overheating motors again.

 

[ryanjg117]

I know you asked ChuckM about the DC recommendation, but I'd get a 5 HP Dust Gorilla from Oneida at $3700.
It seems to be much more expensive than a Clearvue solution, but let's take a closer look.

A comparable Clearvue CVMAX costs $2420. To get close to the same feature set as the Oneida you need to add:

• dust bin: $185
• wall mounting brackets: $55
• filter cleanout box: $85
• remote control: unobtanium, hire an electronics pro to wire up a relay (let's say $200)
• duct silencer: custom made, about $140
• dust bin sensor: $150

So pay almost 2x for a system that has the same 5hp single-phase motor and hence the same starts-per-hour restrictions as the ClearVue option? I'm not going to argue Oneida isn't better, but as others have stated, ClearVue is a more DIY kit-building solution. I would hazard a guess that 90% of ClearVue customers are not paying $200 for an electrician, nor are they paying $185 for a dust bin.

As others have suggested, the solution to the problem in this thread is to go with a 3-phase motor and VFD with programmable fan modes to enable a slow ramp-up. Or be mindful of how often you start it up.

 

[oldie]

Wow - just WOW. 
Sorry - being in the UK, I could hardly believe what I've read about this particular ClearVue dust-collector. 

If that happened here, I fancy Health & Safety people might crawl all over it... 

Our consumer laws give a high level of 'protection' to private / DIY buyers; they are not so comprehensive for businesses - but still think that ClearVue would have a problem if bought by a business. 

Even my 'middle-of-the-road' domestic paper shredder gives details wrt duty cycle etc - both in the instructions and on the shredder itself. 

I have this perception that in the US, people would quite readily threaten to get legal advice if necessary in such cases??  Ok, the original-poster needed to urgently get it sorted out - but surely worth pursuing all the same? 

As an aside, and, off-topic: not all small businesses can afford what they would like to get - but I presume that (similar to the UK) the cost of such equipment can offset against tax - over a period of time?  Unless very hard pushed, why not get a 'safer' product?  In that context, I wouldn't touch ClearVue with a barge-pole; purely because of their 'dismissive' customer service response on this occasion. 

FWIW, the comments made about Oneida I have sympathy with - but that is now history...

Richard (UK)

 

[DeformedTree]

In general, yes, if you DIY something, depending on what it was, you homeowners would cover you.  But when you buy it, whole other story.  I think in general, if you are a business and buy something like this, and it doesn't have a UL approval, you can get in all sorts of trouble.

Of course with DIY, if it's on your house, you need to get permits and get inspected if you are in an area with code enforcement. If you don't again, insurance can just drop you.  But this is not part of your house, so that has nothing to do with this, but just mentioning from a liability standpoint.  You can buy an electrical panel and install it in your house. But the manufacture makes sure their parts won't burst into flame.  And while you could install wire that is to small, that is where inspection comes in.  On something like this, if one of us made this in our garage, and burned down the garage, the act of god would be "idiot home owner", you would most likely be covered.  But if I bought this clearvue and burnt down the garage, insurance would probably cover me, but they would go after clearvue. 

 

[Michael Kellough]

Not only won't I touch anything from that brand, I also won't recommend it IF my opinion is sought. (Compare this to a vehicle dealership fix I received for free -- at an invoiced amount of $800+ Cdn, just because the dealership couldn't be sure if the car problem was caused by me or by the shop after a regular service.)

Imagine what the reactions would have been if this thread's heading had read: "Loyal customer EXTREMELY happy that vendor replaced a $600 motor at no charge! And safety lesson learned."

And please tell me, which dust collector would you recommend that can pull 1500 CFM with an equivalent fine dust capture rate? How much does it cost? Certainly it won't be Oneida based upon your standards. How many Festool CT control boards were destroyed by the static discharge from their cyclone? How many owners here received a new Festool vac from Oneida?

How many?

Seriously, it still isn't clear to me that this static "issue" was really a thing. If it was, was it an Oneida problem or a Festool problem.

I've run my first gen CT Mini with a first gen DD on top without regard for static for over a decade with no problem.

 

[egmiii]

How would I know that cutting steel and glass are "totally out of the scope of the tool's normal use"?

Errrr, common sense?

I merely stated that I have had positive interactions with them on numerous occasions. I was impressed with their knowledge and service.

If I may ask, why would an average customer have numerous interactions with a company? Do their products break all the time, or are you a friend of the family?

Honestly, you start to sound like one of those bought and paid for 10 star IMDB reviews.

I have purchased 3 of their mini cyclone kits and one of their full size CV1800 units over the course of a few years. I had multiple questions before ordering the large unit and they patiently answered my questions while I was researching options. I originally didn’t order complete mini cyclone kits (buckets, wheels, hoses, etc), just the cyclone, but realized that wasn’t such a smart idea. They sold me the remaining components at the price as if I bought them in the kit, which was a good savings. They have also provided advice on duct pipe design, even though I told them I was going to DIY the pipe instead of buying it from them.

No, My products don’t break all the time. No, I am not family. No, I am not one of those bought and paid for 10 star IMDB reviews. I am a satisfied customer.

Thanks for doubting my veracity.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I'm just not entirely sure why anyone would start a full sized dust collector that often anyway?
This is not a "shop vac" or mobile dust extractor, something that might be "tool-triggered".
A big, high CFM unit like that is a start it and let it run type of thing.....especially in a professional shop, where there could be several people using it at any given time.

 

[semenza]

   

    Hobby, pro, industrial, cost, warranty, documented, not documented, kit built, whatever. Bottom line is that all of that pretty much has nothing to do with the actual problem. Which from, what has been posted, seems to be that there is a fire hazard if you turn it on/ off more than four times per hour.  And the owner knows about it, and has said so.  That just doesn't fly. It is a giant law suit waiting to happen. And it won't matter if ClearVue can win the law suit or not. They can still be sued. It is also a real hazard to people using it.  To me it is unbelievably irresponsible.

Seth

 

[DeformedTree]

Exactly Seth

"what about ism"  and "for the price" ,  etc don't matter here.

This company needs to properly address this. Pointing at other companies, or "value" etc won't matter if someones is killed, or has a major structure fire.

I'm glad the OP is ok, and didn't suffer major losses.  The Subject line is a good one, people need to know about this issue. If the companies fixes is, the subject line can always be updated to cover what the company may do (if they do something), but for now. It's important people see it so they can be made aware of the issue.

 

[Banana]

Yeah, I'm having a hard time understanding why documentation would be a 'solution' for this particular duty cycle issue.
I supposes that only the person that purchased and installed it is going to be using it, or always remembering the caution, or aware at all times who else is using it and have some control over that, but this just doesn't work for what's at stake.

 

[Bob D.]

"you need to get permits and get inspected if you are in an area with code enforcement."

It it's plug-in equipment there is no inspection required from code enforcement as nothing under the building code including the NEC applies. At least in NFPA 70. Other sections may apply but for homebrew equipment that is not put up for sale I doubt anything applies. Use at your own risk.

And that may be why ClearVue and other garage operations offer their equipment as build-it-yourself and not as a complete, assembled unit. That let's them legally bypass UL cert or any other regs. Kit components they resell like motors or controls fall back on the manufacturers warranties and certifications they obtained.

 

[Cheese]

Ya, this is one of the weirder threads that has had a large following on the FOG. Offering an electronic module that would prevent you from turning this thing on 5 times within an hour seems like a no-brainer. So it costs $200 extra...who cares my life and the the life of my wife and pets is certainly worth more than that, to say nothing about the house. And $200 is only 10% of the system purchase price.

I understand that wood working equipment can be expensive, but to put yourself in a position of potentially severe consequences because you didn't spend an extra $200 just seems foolish. I really do think this is a company that's run amuck and needs some further guidance. This is just not normal and his reply's are just not normal. 

 

[Rob Z]

I had a CV (bought ~2014/2015)  and  I recall that it was plainly stated in the manual about the number of startups per hour (not more than six?).  Maybe that was a prior owner of the company and a different version of the manual?  It's unfortunate that the OP didn't get the same instructions.

I thought the CV was well-designed and a really solid product.  I would have kept it but we moved to a  smaller house and I ended up selling the CV and getting an Oneida mini-gorilla. 

 

[DeformedTree]

Yes, I was referring to the permits and inspections as part of stuff with your house, not this DC. This was in the scope of insurance and liabilities. When you build a house, it's a kit of parts in many ways, but you have to have it inspected to verify you built it correctly. You also have code books. Similar with Kit Cars, it's just a thing in the garage until you can get the DMV to approve it.

I'm still not sure I would think of this DC as a kit. There is assembly, but lots of stuff involves assembly. Given it's rather big and awkward, this makes sense.

You could be on to something though, they may be thinking they are getting away with things here with the way they are going about it. Unless the motor manufacture says they will honor the motor warranty, I wouldn't expect them too. They sold the motor to Clearvue, I wouldn't expect them to honor a warranty in this situation. A warranty claim would be via Clearvue, and the motor manufacture would expect Clearvue to ensure the motor is used properly. There is nothing wrong with the motor, it's how it's being used. Motor manufacture might tell them they won't sell them these motors anymore until Clearvue adds some controls.

 

[DeformedTree]

I had a CV (bought ~2014/2015)  and  I recall that it was plainly stated in the manual about the number of startups per hour (not more than six?).  Maybe that was a prior owner of the company and a different version of the manual?  It's unfortunate that the OP didn't get the same instructions.

I thought the CV was well-designed and a really solid product.  I would have kept it but we moved to a  smaller house and I ended up selling the CV and getting an Oneida mini-gorilla.

Important question is "was knowledge passed on to the new owner"

 

[Rob Z]

Yes, I was referring to the permits and inspections as part of stuff with your house, not this DC. This was in the scope of insurance and liabilities.

I figured that is what you meant with your earlier comment.  I recall talking to the folks at CV to get the motor specs so my electrician could add the correct circuit for the plug-in of the unit.  The inspector was interested in the unit as a plug-in because he was used to seeing large dust collectors being hardwired with a disconnect.

 

[Rob Z]

[/quote]

Important question is "was knowledge passed on to the new owner"
[/quote]

Yes, along with all the paperwork I had.  [smile]

 

[kevinculle]

I looked at CV's website and one detail seemed to fly in the face of common sense...the dust collector in question comes standard with a remote control???  If it can't be stopped and started more frequently than every 15 minutes the implication is that it's left on during processing operations as one moves from machine to machine.  So why in the heck hand the operator a remote which seems to facilitate and encourage more frequent starts and stops?

 

[Bugsysiegals]

I believe my V3000 has some limitation to start/stop times per hour and while I'd forgotten I rarely start and stop it more than 2-3 times for my small project work but thanks for the reminder!

For those who do not are wired to 220V single phase I wonder if we could harness a small amount of the incoming air and send it back up to the motor to cool the coils while it runs ...