CMS-GE with CMS-OF and OF2200

[Rob-GB]

People ask about it, but as soon as you go into some details, they start laughing and call you stupid for spending sooo much money... At my workplace, I have even been told not to use my Festools in the shop anymore.... Go figure. 

I remember an earlier post where you mentioned this. At the end of the day you know you have reliable and quality tools, as for being asked not to use them.... jealousy is a green eyed monster! Just not Festool green.  ;D Hope you find a better friendlier place to work soon.

Rob.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

The CMS with the router was not in any way flimsy.

I personally, would rather have the CMS with the 2200 in it vs. a immobile stand alone shaper.
Trust me, I would like a shaper but, I still like to be portable.

I have laid my hands on the cms and it is one well built tool (item).

Very hand for making tongues and groves for a custom floor install, one-off trim replication on site, and so on.

I rarely do any work in my garage/shop (1400 sq/ft) but, I do like being able to set up quick do the work and then pack it back up and store it in the corner.

 

[harry_]

Wait a second, I did not say you can't buy them and many stores sell them. I said on real working job sites I have never seen them, that's the difference. If you are in the trades and see them at most jobs then that is surly a minority as most everyone I have talked to on the forums and read about have the same experience I do on actual on sites.

Mostly the guys here are the guys that have Festools on site and that's about it. If the job sites in your area have workers that actually use Festools on site I would be very very surprised. Chicago and the extended suburbs are a pretty big area and I have jobs I see through 5 counties and the city itself, still no Festools on any job sites I have ever seen to date, union and non union.

With one exception, the only time I have seen Festool on a job site was when I brought them there. The one exception was a plumber with a C style drill.

I don't know about you Nick, but around here the majority of union carpenters make concrete forms for bridge work. I have yet to meet a union carpenter that does any finish work. I do a lot of my work in metro-Boston and granted it ain't Chicago, but still...

Who would these be a big hit with on actual job site in the US? The CMS stuff is lightweight and flimsy and I would never bring that to a union job site , it would get ruined for sure. I think maybe the one man show would use the CMS not a crew of guys running around working their asses off, sharing tools, at least not here yet.

I would have to agree that the CMS stuff could/would get pretty beat up in a general crew work environment, I do not think that would be the case for finish crews. The finish crews that I have worked on simply had too much respect for everything that they did or touched. Framers on the other hand.......

The job sites need tough tools that take a beating where guys can share, I just do not see Festool breaking that market in the US for years to come. In Shops maybe, but its big construction that can sell a lot of tools, not the small amount of people here on the forum.

Shared tools definitely take more abuse, but a lot depends on the crew. The CMS or any Festool products are not really tools for framers. Finish guys have a much different attitude and It seems to me that the more refined the work, the more refined the worker and as such the better the tools (and everything else) are treated. Big iron is for shops, not for job sites. Job sites need portability and adaptability. and before you head down the road about dedicated tools, it is not about want or not want, it is about able or not able.

Using the CMS as an example. Yes, I think that we would all prefer to have dedicated router tables with motors. However I can only think of a handful of times when I actually needed one on a job site. Having something like a CMS would give me that option. I do not see a CMS as a `production tool`, but more accurately a tool to help me produce. I'll show you my emergency router table in another thread.

In this economy there is no way a Carpenter is spending anymore money they can with worrying if they are even working tomorrow. I think Festool is smart waiting it out for now.

NO ONE wants to spend more than is necessary. Guys are starving out there. Tradesmen (companies) are downsizing. There are no margins for carrying extra people any more. There are fewer laborers to carry that heavy metal you referred to earlier. My Bosch 4000 table saw now sits in my garage for a saw that weighs 1/2 as much. There are also no margins for replacing disposable tools. The downtime alone can be the difference between brand X and a Festool.

I think Festool waiting it out is a double edged sword. Now is the time when guys in the trades are trying to adapt to a changing marketplace. I think that many if not all of the NAINA products couldprovide a means to that end.

I will agree, in part, to your earlier post about it might take time to for Americans to warm up to the idea(s) of.....

 

[Nigel]

           
         There's a lot of interesting points in this thread.I have the cms/OF 1400/ts75.
 Nickao you make some valid points.

 It's definitely not flimsy  but having said that I agree that I wouldn't let a crew use it.Like you say it would get ruined.I see it as a tool for a one man band.I don't think it's aimed at large company use.

I would'nt like having a single circ saw ts75 to take out of the cms for handheld everytime,it would be a right pain.I have the ts55 for that but  the 75 is very useful occasionally for thicker timber or long cuts in oak for example when the 55 will trip out.
   
As for weight,well since I got the cms my heavy site saw just doesn't get used anymore,same for my old router table [waiting for someone to take it away].I don't miss the weight of either of them.
   
 Another strange thing is that although I have 4 routers I now only really use one!Doesn't matter if it's in the module I'll take 2 mins to take it out.I think it's worth the small effort.The of1400 is very quick to install in and out of the module.On site you can have handheld and table mounted and change between the two very rapidly.

 It all depends on what space/workshop/vehicle you have.Like Rob-GB I have a little van and some of the sites I work on are compact.No room for separates.
In the US you probably have much more space?Perhaps there are areas with small sites though.This is where the cms is unique and unbeatable.There simply is nothing to compare for portability,versatility and accuracy.

 For the cost,well I reckon all would agree it's expensive but then Festool are not famous for cheap tools.

 

[danjames]

Nigel,

You hit the nail right on the head, I am a boat builder and space is always very tight on a boat, I run the same set up as you - cms, ts75, of1400, and I always work on my own, it is the best set up that I have had to date, the saw is the most time consuming tool to take in  and out, but once you have done it a few times it is easy and not to slow, but as you say just leave it in there and use the 55 for all other cuts except for all but the deepest - hardest cuts.

Dan.

 

[jmbfestool]

And, since it has the 'V' groove, and is the same height as the MFT (and therefore the same height as the Kapex on either the MFT Kapex or the new stand) you can use the new KA-UG Kapex extensions as infeed/outfeed tables, too.

Dontcha just love a system? [big grin]

The Kapex MFT table ISNT the same height its taller than the rest of the MFT tables. So the UG-kepx extensions arms dont fit on the Kapex MFT table I tried cus I own both.

Any way Im glad I found this topic because I am buying  the CMS-GE and CMS-OF this monday I was going to order it friday just gone but I had to think about its over the weekend because I gotta buy a core drill and Core drill cutter set  and I am thinking of buying MFT 3 bench but I have seen the MFT 3 VL GB now that only has two legs and attaches to the MFT3  so it would replace the CMS-GE   

I dont know which to buy. Any help?!?!?

 

[Nigel]

The Kapex MFT table ISNT the same height its taller than the rest of the MFT tables. So the UG-kepx extensions arms dont fit on the Kapex MFT table I tried cus I own both.

Any way Im glad I found this topic because I am buying  the CMS-GE and CMS-OF this monday I was going to order it friday just gone but I had to think about its over the weekend because I gotta buy a core drill and Core drill cutter set  and I am thinking of buying MFT 3 bench but I have seen the MFT 3 VL GB now that only has two legs and attaches to the MFT3  so it would replace the CMS-GE     

I dont know which to buy. Any help?!?!?

       jmb,  

I wouldn't go for the MFT 3 VL myself for site work cos you always have to have the mft3 with you.A right pain to have to set it all up just to rip a piece of wood.Different for  constant workshop use though.
 Incidentally I would recommend to you and ROB GB to get the sliding table as I reckon it's a gem.Very light and quick to attach with 2 thumbscrews.You can also lock it as a little extension table to increase ripping capacity,the standard base being a bit shy on that score.

      Dan,

   I agree the saw being the most time consuming especially if you change the riving knife which I find awkward.I also cut that wire off that holds the depth arm to the module!Just could not get on with it...As for swapping the modules after a few goes it gets a lot quicker.

 

[jonny round boy]

The Kapex MFT table ISNT the same height its taller than the rest of the MFT tables. So the UG-kepx extensions arms dont fit on the Kapex MFT table I tried cus I own both.

The MFT Kapex is shorter than the MFT3, not taller. And, what I said was:

and therefore the same height as the Kapex on either the MFT Kapex or the new stand

They are all the same height, 900mm.

 

[Michael_MA]

Congrats Rob, on a very good choice !

Very nice review of a great Set.
I can completly understand your decision for the CMS system. I also dont like to carry heavy equipment around and try to be as flexible as possible without loosing options. I've got the OF2200 as well, but standalone in the Kit Version without the CMS. I'm stiil using the OF1010 for small application in my former Basis 1A (former CMS system)  table in change with an ATF55 plunge saw.

A table Router does not have to be tons in weight to be called sturdy and robust. I fact, it is much more sturdy than lot of table Router on the market today. I have seen quite a few made out of sheet metal in very light constructions and without molded Aluminium parts. So not only consists the CMS of molded Aluminium parts, they are also in forged quality because Festool uses high quality die-cast processes. The only thing, which i had had some hassle with my older system was the change of the router and Plunge saw.. the insets itself are quicly changeable, but the tools in the inlets not. so this is the reason, why i have additonal the OF1400 for hand work, the OF220 for tough work, and a TS55 for cutting sheet goods with different rails.

Would be great, if you give us little more insight on the usage of the CMS OF2200 and your experience..

kind regards, Mike

 

[danjames]

Any way Im glad I found this topic because I am buying  the CMS-GE and CMS-OF this monday I was going to order it friday just gone but I had to think about its over the weekend because I gotta buy a core drill and Core drill cutter set  and I am thinking of buying MFT 3 bench but I have seen the MFT 3 VL GB now that only has two legs and attaches to the MFT3  so it would replace the CMS-GE     

I dont know which to buy. Any help?!?!?
[
JMB,

I had the same dilemma when I had to decide what way to go, as in should the module be attached to my mft3 or not.
In the end I got the VL which is attached, I figured that I have always got my MFT with me ( I can't do much without a work bench on the job ), so with the VL it can also be an extension of the MFT and with the MFT right next to the VL I can rip-cut much wider pieces of timber as I attach the fence to the front edge of the MFT, I did not want to be limited to cutting up to only 180 mm or whatever it is.
I use two fences, for normal ripping I use the dedicated ripping fence I think it is the CL70, this is  attached to the VL module and when I need to cut something that is wider than the module I use fence that comes with the unit, that is the protractor head and ali fence, set at 90 degrees but calibrated to my saw blade in the VL unit so that it is parallel and then I measure to the sawblade to establish the width, and clamp the far end of the fence down to stop it moving.
For me this has been a good thing and allows me to use the module not just for small rip cuts it is like having a bed extention to the saw, I hope that this is understandable.

Thanks - Dan. [smile]

 

[danjames]

Oh ye, you can also put the router module in the wrong way round and then the MFT is an extention to the router table for routing big pieces of wood, I have not used it this way yet but it is certainly possible.
Dan.

 

[Rob-GB]

Congrats Rob, on a very good choice !

Very nice review of a great Set.
I can completly understand your decision for the CMS system. I also dont like to carry heavy equipment around and try to be as flexible as possible without loosing options. I've got the OF2200 as well, but standalone in the Kit Version without the CMS. I'm stiil using the OF1010 for small application in my former Basis 1A (former CMS system)  table in change with an ATF55 plunge saw.

A table saw does not have to be tons in weight to be called sturdy and robust. I fact, it is much more sturdy than lot of table saws on the market today. I have seen quite a few made out of sheet metal in very light constructions and without molded Aluminium parts. So not only consists the CMS of molded Aluminium parts, they are also in forged quality because Festool uses high quality die-cast processes. The only thing, which i had had some hassle with my older system was the change of the router and Plunge saw.. the insets itself are quicly changeable, but the tools in the inlets not. so this is the reason, why i have additonal the OF1400 for hand work, the OF220 for tough work, and a TS55 for cutting sheet goods with different rails.

Would be great, if you give us little more insight on the usage of the CMS OF2200 and your experience..

kind regards, Mike

Thanks Mike, I have not yet had the chance to use this set up, though I see it being a huge help when I have to make a staircase on site. I do a lot of stairs [big grin]
I shall try to post an update when I get to play with it for real. The OF2200 has more than enough power for the trenching of stringers and in the CMS it will make easy and safe work of tread nosings and grooves for the risers. I have many other plans for it's use too, stay tuned! [wink]

Rob.

 

[Rob-GB]

 Incidentally I would recommend to you and ROB GB to get the sliding table as I reckon it's a gem.Very light and quick to attach with 2 thumbscrews.You can also lock it as a little extension table to increase ripping capacity,the standard base being a bit shy on that score.

      Dan,

Nigel, I want one but it would have pushed my budget out of all possibility! I shall at some point get one. With the economic climate still looking uncertain I am aiming to be free of credit card bills and only buy what I can justify to be an investment. It is a hard choice to make, but after 6 months out of work last year I have to be tough on me. Or my Suzy will  [wink]  [laughing]
Rob.

 

[Brice Burrell]

Rob, great job on the review.  It's about time you guys across the Atlantic started pulling your own weight here in the review section with the NAINA tool. [poke] [big grin]

 

[jmbfestool]

The Kapex MFT table ISNT the same height its taller than the rest of the MFT tables. So the UG-kepx extensions arms dont fit on the Kapex MFT table I tried cus I own both.

The MFT Kapex is shorter than the MFT3, not taller. And, what I said was:

and therefore the same height as the Kapex on either the MFT Kapex or the new stand

They are all the same height, 900mm.

I couldnt remember which way round it was taller or shorter just knew it was different.

Sorry I didnt read it properly!

 

[Rob-GB]

Rob, great job on the review.  It's about time you guys across the Atlantic started pulling your own weight here in the review section with the NAINA tool. [poke] [big grin]

From you sir, that is a huge compliment, thankyou. [big grin]

 

[Nigel]

     
[/quote]

Nigel, I want one but it would have pushed my budget out of all possibility!
[/quote]

     I know exactly what you mean [scared] but you know you'll have to [tongue].

    Nice review Rob.

 

[jmbfestool]

Oh ye, you can also put the router module in the wrong way round and then the MFT is an extention to the router table for routing big pieces of wood, I have not used it this way yet but it is certainly possible.
Dan.

Well thats what I had in mind.  I dont want to be limited to small pieces  like you said having it attached to the MFT3 makes it possible to use large pieces of wood.

My problem like Nigel said is if I just wanted to do a small piece I would have to get both MFT3 and MFT VL out. Also their are 6 legs on the floor which makes it more difficult on site to get level BUT  Having the MFT3 and CMS-GE  if I was just to have them it would also be difficult to get them level side by side. Question: Can the MFT3 and CMS-GE  be attached?!?!?

So good and bad points for both really.

I think both Nigel and Dan both have said the reasons I was thinking which is making it difficult for me to decide which one to get cus both sides have advantages and disadvantages..

.......................................... [crying] Im thinking ummmm I can have a set up which I can do more on but one cant be with out the other  or I can have two separate setups.   Im thinking I am mainly site I am going to build a work shop eventually so I can become more independent so being more site at the moment having MFT3 and CMS-GE is maybe more for me?!?!  I DONT KNO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I hate knowing that having the MFT3 CMS-GE seperate isnt as good as the MFT3 and MFT VL combined.  Thinkin like making large circles would be really easy with the MFT3 and MFT VL because you could have the pivot fixing point the the MFT3 and just rotate the square wood into the CMS-Of router. As you cant with the two sepetate setups.

Ummm I dont kow I am talking rubbish cus I just cant think and tomoro is the big buying day

 

[jmbfestool]

Rob, great job on the review.  It's about time you guys across the Atlantic started pulling your own weight here in the review section with the NAINA tool. [poke] [big grin]

OI I started one just not finished (CARVEX!)

 

[Rob-GB]

Oh ye, you can also put the router module in the wrong way round and then the MFT is an extention to the router table for routing big pieces of wood, I have not used it this way yet but it is certainly possible.
Dan.

Well thats what I had in mind.  I dont want to be limited to small pieces  like you said having it attached to the MFT3 makes it possible to use large pieces of wood.

My problem like Nigel said is if I just wanted to do a small piece I would have to get both MFT3 and MFT VL out. Also their are 6 legs on the floor which makes it more difficult on site to get level BUT  Having the MFT3 and CMS-GE  if I was just to have them it would also be difficult to get them level side by side. Question: Can the MFT3 and CMS-GE  be attached?!?!?

So good and bad points for both really.

I think both Nigel and Dan both have said the reasons I was thinking which is making it difficult for me to decide which one to get cus both sides have advantages and disadvantages..

.......................................... [crying] Im thinking ummmm I can have a set up which I can do more on but one cant be with out the other  or I can have two separate setups.   Im thinking I am mainly site I am going to build a work shop eventually so I can become more independent so being more site at the moment having MFT3 and CMS-GE is maybe more for me?!?!  I DONT KNO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I hate knowing that having the MFT3 CMS-GE seperate isnt as good as the MFT3 and MFT VL combined.  Thinkin like making large circles would be really easy with the MFT3 and MFT VL because you could have the pivot fixing point the the MFT3 and just rotate the square wood into the CMS-Of router. As you cant with the two sepetate setups.

Ummm I dont kow I am talking rubbish cus I just cant think and tomoro is the big buying day

Festool do joining bars to connect two MFT/3's no reason why they won't connect the CMS to the MFT/3. Ask your dealer. Some places I work I have not room for something the size of an MFT/3 or my cutting table. As with planers and thicknessers, separates are always the better option, you just have to decide what will work best for you or what compromises you are willing to make. Review what tasks you are likely to do with it and make a list , which option best fits?

Rob.