combo jointer planer or individuals

[ericbuggeln]

I am starting to look into buying a planer first and then a 6 or 8 inch jointer; or possibly a jointer/planer combo.  I have never owned either before and am currently having my hardwood dealer do all of my milling.  I think to a moment in time when I had rented a tile saw so many times from the Depot that by the time I bought one at $1000.00 I had almost spent that much in rental fees, with nothing to show for it.  Please help me avoid that. 

I am in this for life and want my business to grow to the point where I will consider these purchases business costs and not investments towards the future.  Right now these would be my first purchases that won't be justified by a clients paycheck in the end.  I want something that when I buy it is almost out of my price range, but in five years I'm not trying to give it away.  This will also be the breeding ground for me to hone the craft of milling up my own stock and have heard that jointer/planers are harder to use?  Should I get the DW735 which many of the most helpful members of this forum have and have shared tips on use and then get a quality 6 inch jointer?  It seems that some companies are coming out with more reasonably priced combo machines, yet I have had a hard time finding any info on specifics of machinery.  Would anyone here go this route if you had to do it again?

Jet has one that was "editors pick" in Fine Woodworking 2008 Tool Guide for $2000.00 not including shipping which could be a lot.  Grizzly has one for $1795.00 without shipping.  Without seeing any of these in person they look similar in design to Minimax's and Hammers budget models which are about twice as much and out of my reach.  I know these machines are probably not nearly as nice as there European counterparts and more likely made in a sweat shop, I mean ISO factory, so I'm not trying to get comparisons, but rather suggestions of what you would do in my shoes?

I want to spend app. $2000.00 for machinery and only have ct22 for dust collection, so designated dust collection and duct work would also be something I would appreciate recommendations on.  I currently am working up a deal with my electrician to put 220 service in there, so I should be able to run anything a home shop can do.

This will be part of an ongoing transformation of my garage bay into workshop and operations of sort for my home remodeling business.  My wifes car and the garbage are the only thing besides my tools that lives in the garage, so without her car it's pretty big.  Plus a lot of stuff gets thrown into the van daily to go to work.  I'm thinking of possibly making a stationary side and portable side.  Although I have a shed for all of your other garage type stuff, I am thinking of adding a shed like structure to the back of the garage, which would house the garbage, some landscaping tools, and possibly dust collection?  It seems like it would save space and be good for noise?  How much should I look to spend on dust collection now if I plan on expanding to eventually have a bandsaw, lathe, etc, etc, etc.

I am long winded in my requests for knowledge, but I figured now was a good time for the FOG peeps to forget about arguing and help a young guy fulfill his dreams through tools.  I would love to know what you would do if you were me, but also what setups people are using, which will give everyone a reason to admire there own shops, thanks Eric

 

[Woodenfish]

What are the overall dimensions of your garage?

How long do you plan on living in this home?

What type of projects do you see yourself doing mostly?

Are you planning on having your machinery in fixed positions or is everything going to be on wheels to be pulled out as needed?

Purchasing new woodworking machines now to only find that you really did not need them or worse needed larger/better machines later on can become quite expensive.

 

[Chris Hughes]

  I've used both set-ups, I chose to buy the tools separately.  I believe that I can buy more equipment for the money as stand alone pieces.  I started with a dewalt 12" planer and a 6" delta jointer.  I just bought a 15" general planer from a friend and am now looking to upgrade my jointer.  In the past I needed portability now I need capacity.  The combo I used in the past was very heavy and generally if I had a problem with one unit the other was done in repair.  Chris

 

[Scott W.]

Hi Eric,

Decisions...  Decisions...

Well, I'll throw in my 5 cents worth, I'm sure others will have their own views.

1. Get a good jointer  Thats the first step in squaring lumber.

2. Wider is better  

3. If you are watching the $$ a lunch box style planer will get you by until you get to the point you are running alot of lumber.

4. combo machines save space but you will pay for that EVERY TIME you have to switch over & if you have a break down Both machines may be down. If you have the space I would get separates.

5. A ct will have a tough time keeping up with a jointer or planer & it will fill your bags very quickly. At the least you will need a separator between the machine & vac.  Better to get a real DC. If you cant go with a cyclone right now you can get a decent 1.5-2.5 hp bag style & hook it to both or one at a time.

HTH

Scott W.

 

[cflansbaum]

Once you get a Jointer and Planer you'll wonder how you ever did without it.  I have a 8" Grizzly that I love, although I lust for the 16"... 

I haven't heard any real negatives about the Combo machines and it seems like this is the 2nd rendition of some of the manufactures so I think some of the initial bugs have been worked out.  I have heard the switch over time is really quick.  The big plus is you get a wide bed jointer out of the mix.

However for me, having a combo machine would really throw off my work flow as I find you go back and forth between machines a lot with surfacing and especially if you have machines dialed in at a certain setting, going back and forth would seem to me to be a pain.  However if your space is tight and it's either one of these or just one (or neither) then I think it's ok.

You can get a 8" Grizzly for $800, a Dewalt 735 Planer at Amazon for $550, and a Grizzly Dust Collector for ~$300.  This would give you a bit in your budget for tubing and other misc (and shipping if you don't live in Grizzly's headquarters town like I do  :-X)  You definitely want DC for these two machines.

Email me if you want more specifics on my setup.

Good Luck!

Carl

 

[ccmviking]

Eric,

    What kind of capacity do you think you'd need?  I'd definitely prefer separate machines to avoid any setup and calibration hassles.  I have a 6" jointer but would prefer an 8" because I use stock that wide for drawer boxes and such.  The DW735 works well for me.  I added the infeed and outfeed tables and the  dust collection bag.  It's got a pretty good fan build into it so I just tie the bag over a large plastic trash can (that's what it's made for) and it works reasonably well.  I haven't purchased a dust collector yet due to their size and the mess the tubing makes (overhead it always seems to be in the way).  I thought about getting one of those little roll around ones but haven't. 

Chris...     

 

[ericbuggeln]

I get the feeling that people here like and or own Grizzly.  I have heard somewhere at some point that they are made in the same factories as Delta in china and that Grizzly just prices differently?  Is there any truth to this.  It sounds like 6 inch jointer prices for 8 inch jointer.  Any Grizzly owners out there want to add on longevity of there machinery.  I might be leaning towards DW 735 and one of Grizzly's 8 inch jointers ($695.00/$795.00), could leave me extra loot to go bigger on dust collection.  When I went to get the Dust Deputy recently I noticed that Oneida had a portable cyclone and some newer v system models that both weighed in at about a $1000.00.  "Would the juice be worth the squeeze" to go the clearview route? 
For a garage shop how much should I put forth in the budget to get hosing and accessories and hidden costs I didn't factor in?
This is proving to be a complicated and expensive move, yet so crucial, thanks for all the advice, Eric

 

[ericbuggeln]

Just realized that my computer isn't working too well in garage and a post from before has gone missing. 
This is the FOG I remember, thanks to all for their advice.  To answer some questions the garage is 20 x 23 and I have no plans on leaving the property but I have a back yard that is begging for a barn shop and my wife shows horses, so I can make it look like a horse barn and everyone wins.  For now the garage is more then enough and I paid off my wife with automatic car starter so if I need the bay for the night or two, it's mine. 
Woodgeek, I am in anticipation of how your new shop and business venture will go.  I wish you much success and enjoyment.  I will email you about the Grizzly 8 incher as it was the one I kept winding up at mostly b/c of cost. 
You guys seemed to have swayed me from the combo possibility, thank you for the thought provoking responses, Eric

 

[Mirko]

"Hammer time" A3-31 that is! change over in under a minute. Knife change is a snap 2nd after the Tersa system.

Mirko

 

[Dan Clermont]

Maybe out of your price range, but if you want a quality combo, that's going to last, go buy a Felder
The Hammer's aren't bad either.
The rest are just compromises

I am with ya !

Dan Clermont

 

[greg mann]

To answer some questions the garage is 20 x 23 and I have no plans on leaving the property but I have a back yard that is begging for a barn shop and my wife shows horses, so I can make it look like a horse barn and everyone wins. 

Put the horses in the garage and you'll have more room in the barn. ;D

 

[ericbuggeln]

Would anyone recommend buying used machinery to achieve goals and budget to build a shop.  I saw this on Fine Woodworking online
http://forums.taunton.com/n/main.asp?msg=2200&nav=messages&webtag=fw-classifieds&redirCnt=1

and the guy selling it seemed very honest and said that he hadn't used all of it a ton.  The jointer is 15 years old and the planer is about 10 years old.  I live about an hour and 45 minutes away from him, so this seems like a good deal. 
Would I advance my woodworking career ten fold by acquiring this machinery or would I just be stuck with antiques that are hard to maintain and repair.  As the above posts read I was thinking I would try to save enough $$$ for jointer, planer, and traditional dust collection this year.  Is this deal that good, the guy seems like he really just wants to pass it down to someone like me and that the money is an afterthought.  Any responses or thoughts on this would be appreciated, thanks Eric

 

[Jerry Work]

Hi Eric,

A couple of observations from my experience may be helpful, although I'm not sure you can achieve what you say you want to achieve on a $2000 budget. 

But, before any talk of machines, I think it best to address your question from a bit different perspective.  My suggestion is to think through where you spend your time when building the kinds of projects you like to build rather than starting by thinking about what kinds of machines you want to use.  In my case, I build fine furniture.  More than 50% of my time on a piece is spent sanding, doing panel glue ups, squaring, assembly and polishing.  Less than 25% of my time is spent machining the work pieces.  So, for me, having optimum large flat surfaces suited to the sanding, etc. functions pays far better dividends in terms of my productivity than what kinds of machines I use for the stock prep and machining operations.

A number of years ago I replaced all my separate stationary machines with a European combination machine and have become far more productive as a result.  Separate machines take up a lot more floor space, space that for what I do is better devoted to more flat glueing, sanding, assembly, squaring and polishing operations.  A second benefit, often overlooked, is that I also find myself walking far less in the course of each and every day than I did when I had to walk between all those different machines.

Change over time is not an issue for me as I simply have developed a rhythm in how I prep stock and probably think through the machining sequences a bit better now than I used to.  I can't speak to any of the jointer/planer combos you mention since I have not used them, but changing from jointing to planing on my machine takes less than 20 seconds.  The only change changeover time that is significant is when you use the shaper function.  There you have to set up and adjust the fences as well as affixing the cutter and setting its height, all of which can be a bit fussy and time consuming. 

If you decide to purchase one of the 12" or wider jointer/planer combinations or a full European combination machine (all of which start at that size and go up from there) what will change the most for you is the ability to joint wide stock dead flat, the ability to plane without any snipe and the fact that you are joining and planing off of the same blades so your joined face and your planed face will both take finish the same way.  That is all too often not true when you joint on one machine and plane on another.  Using the same blades for both operations means you no longer have to keep track of which face is which as you go forward with other machining, assembly and finishing operations.

If you plan on working with solid woods I think you will find any jointer smaller than 12" will be a real drawback.  You can do it, but your productivity will be cut at least in half over what it will be if your jointer is 12" or wider.

Superb dust control is an absolute, non-negotiable issue for me since we live upstairs from my studio and gallery.  Since your work space is part of your house and you certainly do not want your family to be exposed to the fine dust you will be creating, my suggestion is to put a lot of thought into good fine dust control no matter how you decide to machine your work pieces.  I address DC on several levels on my studio.  All machines that remove wood in any form have their own dedicated fine dust collection with properly designed and sized ducting.  This is not the place to go into all the details of that, but it is almost impossible to really get the fine dust through the 4" ports that seem all too common on most wood working machines sold in this country.  You almost have to modify them to draw through the equivalent of a 6" port to get enough air flow to pull the fine dust into the DC rather than releasing it into the ambient room air. 

All large machining operations in my studio are connected to an industrial cyclone with sub-one micron filters on the air returned back into the room.  Very few of the things sold in this country as "industrial cyclones" come any where close to that, and the puff bag units should in my opinion be outlawed as they are only good for large chip collection - not fine dust collection.  The Felder and Coral "clean tech" units are good, but I found them quite expensive, they take a lot of floor space and are commonly available only on special order.  The 5hp Clearvue unit with sub-one micron filters from Wynn do meet that sub-one micron standard and is the set up I now use (after trying a number of other brands in the past that did not work well for me).  Not surprising, all of the hand power tools in my studio are Festools attached to Festool DCs with HEPA final filters.  I also run three different ambient room air filtering systems for several hours on timers every night.  Two are ceiling mounted box filter units that use electrostatic first filters and bag style final filters, and one is a stack of two of the Wynn sub-one micron canisters with an 8" in line blower sitting on top drawing air from the room and into the center of the filter stack.

This may all sound like overkill to you as the DC and ducting alone will likely exceed your $2000 budget but that is probably the most important decision you will make since you say you want to do this for a long time and eventually as your primary means of earning a living for your family.  A descent 12" jointer or jointer/planer combo will also likely exceed your $2000 budget so I know these suggestions will be a challenge for you.  One way to address the cost/investment issue is to join a woodworking guild in your area and let the members know what you are looking for.  You never know when someone may be upgrading and will make something available to you that can meet your budget.  The MiniMax and Felder forums are another place to set out what you want to do and see if there are any owners in your area that might have equipment you can buy or use to see for your self it combination machines are right for you.

Hope these observations are helpful.  Good luck on your quest.

Jerry

I am starting to look into buying a planer first and then a 6 or 8 inch jointer; or possibly a jointer/planer combo.  I have never owned either before and am currently having my hardwood dealer do all of my milling.  I think to a moment in time when I had rented a tile saw so many times from the Depot that by the time I bought one at $1000.00 I had almost spent that much in rental fees, with nothing to show for it.  Please help me avoid that. 

I am in this for life and want my business to grow to the point where I will consider these purchases business costs and not investments towards the future.  Right now these would be my first purchases that won't be justified by a clients paycheck in the end.  I want something that when I buy it is almost out of my price range, but in five years I'm not trying to give it away.  This will also be the breeding ground for me to hone the craft of milling up my own stock and have heard that jointer/planers are harder to use?  Should I get the DW735 which many of the most helpful members of this forum have and have shared tips on use and then get a quality 6 inch jointer?   It seems that some companies are coming out with more reasonably priced combo machines, yet I have had a hard time finding any info on specifics of machinery.  Would anyone here go this route if you had to do it again?

Jet has one that was "editors pick" in Fine Woodworking 2008 Tool Guide for $2000.00 not including shipping which could be a lot.  Grizzly has one for $1795.00 without shipping.  Without seeing any of these in person they look similar in design to Minimax's and Hammers budget models which are about twice as much and out of my reach.  I know these machines are probably not nearly as nice as there European counterparts and more likely made in a sweat shop, I mean ISO factory, so I'm not trying to get comparisons, but rather suggestions of what you would do in my shoes?

I want to spend app. $2000.00 for machinery and only have ct22 for dust collection, so designated dust collection and duct work would also be something I would appreciate recommendations on.  I currently am working up a deal with my electrician to put 220 service in there, so I should be able to run anything a home shop can do.

This will be part of an ongoing transformation of my garage bay into workshop and operations of sort for my home remodeling business.  My wifes car and the garbage are the only thing besides my tools that lives in the garage, so without her car it's pretty big.  Plus a lot of stuff gets thrown into the van daily to go to work.  I'm thinking of possibly making a stationary side and portable side.  Although I have a shed for all of your other garage type stuff, I am thinking of adding a shed like structure to the back of the garage, which would house the garbage, some landscaping tools, and possibly dust collection?  It seems like it would save space and be good for noise?  How much should I look to spend on dust collection now if I plan on expanding to eventually have a bandsaw, lathe, etc, etc, etc.

I am long winded in my requests for knowledge, but I figured now was a good time for the FOG peeps to forget about arguing and help a young guy fulfill his dreams through tools.  I would love to know what you would do if you were me, but also what setups people are using, which will give everyone a reason to admire there own shops, thanks Eric

 

[Loren Woirhaye]

I have a Robland 12" Jointer/planer/mortiser combo.  Great, heavy duty
machine.  It's rough around the edges but it will outlast a "lunchbox"
planer by a lifetime.

I'd steer clear of the refined INCA J/P machines, or anything with
an aluminum table if you intend to do woodworking full time.

The heavy Robland/MiniMax, etc... machines will stand up to employee
abuse.  The INCA style ones will not.

As you expand you will probably find you either use the combo
mostly as a jointer or as a planer.  Your style of working will differ
from mine of course.  A portable planer for light thicknessing
comes in handy and you'll save time by not cranking the planer
table up and down every time you want to switch functions.

The Robland will take off about 3/16" off a 7"wide board with
no problem - day-in, day-out.  It's a fast way to take wood
from rough to milled if you have a planer that can do it.

I actually have the Robland for sale but I doubt you live close
enough to make it a worthwhile to you.

 

[Loren Woirhaye]

BTW - my preference would be separate machines...but - once
you've experienced a combo with a mortiser on it you may
despise other forms of mortising as I do.

I haven't thrown down $800 for the Domino machine though -
which I am sure is just wonderful - but you can't expect
lifetime durability from a tool with a universal motor.