Comment on Festools & Improvements you may want to see for them.

[Matthew Schenker]

Steve Jones,
                  Thanks for being honest and not being afraid to speak up, I posted earlier in the retry of this thread in case you or anyone else missed it its quoted below.Since I posted this I have had a LOT of personal emails from people echoing my thoughts but do not want to post this for fear of receiving a similar bashing that nickao received. People in an open minded community should be able to voice there ideas without fear of being attacked!!!!
                   

Quote

"
I used to think this forum was a friendly place, since this thread was posted my opinion has changed, It should not matter how much a member posts or what he posts people should respect his opinion ( as long as he is being polite and not trying to offend anybody ) I'm not saying you must agree with him but a least have the common courtesy to either make constructive comments to the writer or ignore the topic, no one deserves to be " attacked " for voicing their opinion. Nick even tried to restart the thread with an explanation of his idea and even asked for just input on tools still someone had to jump in and flame the writer again.
        Nick had good ideas and his work speaks for its self I personally am ashamed at some of the comments made to him. well i guess you won't have to deal with him anymore as after this "bashing" he took he has left (this is according to Matthew so I don't think its a rumor) Shame a great guy who would help you out and play devils advocate every now and then, which helped balance things out ........ A sad day for this forum.............. you guys proud of your selves ?

I unlike Nickao WILL NOT be drawn into an argument about this ........ This is  a comment not a question ........and if this generates the same reaction as nicks post oh well

I still see FOG as a great place for Festool information and for guides but can not shake the bitter taste this whole thing has left in my mouth

Colin."

Looks like this discussion has turned into a debate about whether people can speak their minds on the FOG.  Let's remember that everything anyone wanted to say has been posted, unfiltered.

I'll repeat it again: criticism of the tools is perfectly fine.

In fact, there have been a few critical discussions, or specific posts within a discussion that were critical, and they went just fine.  Only in an overwhelming minority of situations on this forum have there been any kinds of attacks.  In fact, I'd say that outside this discussion, it has not been an issue.  For whatever reason, this discussion really caught all of it.

Also, we really don't know for sure why Nick has closed his membership.  Until at least one of us hears back from him on his reasons, I don't want to make any assumptions.

Matthew

 

[colinw]

Matthew,
              Fist let me say I admire the way you run the forum I have said this before, I am not trying to say that people can't speak their minds but more like I did not like the way some people tried to stifle the thread because they did not like / approve of it .
              For one Ideas can not be judged until they run their course who was right and who was wrong? we will never know. but whenever anything worthwhile is invented or found there are people on the sidelines denouncing it for example: Edison had already invented 12 volt electricity when Tesla came up with 120 volt and the use of transformers to transport it around, a much more efficient method, Edison did experiments to prove how dangerous it was and did his best to discredit Tesla. Who knows where nicks idea could have gone or who would have picked it up and ran with it and created a wonderful database for us all to use or it could have simply died a death on its own like a lot of threads do, it did not need to be killed or stifled. just because people have different opinions the group that shouts the loudest is not always right.

Colin.
                 

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Colin,
Thanks for your kind words about the forum.

However, I disagree that this discussion was stifled at all.  I'm not saying that I am proud of the way this discussion went, but neither Nick, nor anyone else, was stifled in the least.  Everyone involved chose to say what they said, and from my perspective said it often and loudly.  In a forum like this, everyone is free to press on with his or her ideas.  If they become silent, that's their choice.  I think it's essential that people not carry away some image that Nick was prevented from saying what he believed.

In the end, Nick chose, on his own, to leave the forum.  But we cannot assume it is because he was stifled.  We don't know why he left.

Matthew

 

[Daviddubya]

...Here are some quotes from earlier responses:
(List not included)
...What a bunch of hatefull, spitefull old ladies!

I hope you're all proud of your "contributions"

I check unread posts regularly, lately this forum is declining into a pissing competition with no new or valuable discussions about Festools and their operation.

Steve,

Since I made several of the statements that you chose to call "hateful, spiteful", I feel the need to respond to you.  Nothing I said was said with a hateful or spiteful intention.  In fact, Nick and I exchanged several PM's and we did not have a cross word.  So your interpretation of what I said is your own, and not Nick's.  Please allow me to point out that many of the comments you cited are nothing more than someone disagreeing with something someone else said.  Just because the topic happened to be Festool complaints and problems, the criticisms made by the detractors of this thread have become cheerleaders.  As Matthew has inferred, we all have an opportunity to express an opinion here.  Just because some opinions are different from yours, or Nick's, does not make those opinions wrong or hateful and spiteful.  Maybe stated too strongly in some cases, but I think the intentions were every bit as honorable as Nick's.

You said, "lately this forum is declining into a pissing competition with no new or valuable discussions about Festools and their operation."   This thread is an example of what you are referring to.  Unfortunately, I agree with your statement, and I hope that the tone of the forum soon returns to what it used to be.

I hope Nick decides to return.

 

[PeterK]

Personally, I hate to see Nick leave. He has a tremendous amount of Festool products and uses them hard. I was following his CT vac thread where he was having problems of suction loss and filter plugging. Was really hoping to find out what the problem was as thought we could all learn from that. I always read a post trying to understand the point being made or the question asked. It is so easy to criticize the way it is worded and it is always difficult to have it interpreted as meant. Seems that the problem with/for Nick is he is not always understood. Maybe a post can be reworded by others better but in my case, not having great literary skills, I know some of my posts are not always read as I meant. I have plenty of money invested in my Festool products and really love most of them, like some of them, question the value of a couple. This forum rocks for information sharing and improving usage. Let us not loose this.
Pete

 

[Steve Jones]

David,

First and foremost, I did not copy or identify the names of the people involved, in fact I did not look at them, I wasn't picking on anyone in particular, my research started out as wondering why Nick was feeling the way he was and frankly I was shocked at that list I compiled, and everyone here used to be such nice folks!

did you read that list? I ask because you said I "Chose" to call those quotes "Hateful, spiteful" - what the heck would you call them? Supportive?, constructive?, encouraging?

If there is anything in my list of quotes that you are not proud of, I'm not responsible for that. according to your logic I can call someone the offspring of unmarried parents who indulges in unnatural sexual practices with his maternal parent, (this is the long version, figure out the short version for yourselves) as long as didn't have any hateful or spiteful intent it's socially acceptable is it?

My point is not to pick on you personally David, I guess what I'm trying to say is that this is a public forum, what the public sees is what is here - if some of us exchange private emails asking if it's ok to call the other party a whining piece of dog poo it does not make it ok to do so in public.

I don't know which of my quotes is yours, and I have no desire to know. I'm not starting a flaming match with any individual, I'm simply stating my impressions of Nicks' recent experience and my disgust with the way he was treated.

 

[Zaphod]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't see a single personal affront to Nickao's post.  Some may have disagreed with aspects of his proposal, but I fail to see any personal malevolence whatsoever.  "Whining" was the harshest term used; ouch.

Much to do about nothing. 

 

[Texastutt]

Whoa! this one took off in a bad way. I have a TS55, with a MFT3, three rails, and a lot of systainers, and yes when it's a bad arthritis day those things don't open well. The TS55 has issues my fein Vac has issues, my Bosh radio has issues... Their tools Folks, not a god!

I like the idea of the thread. I would like to know what does and does not work, I have tools in my garage that do not get to ride around in my trailer because they don't make me money, ONE headed that way looks like it will be a non festool circular saw, unless I do roof sheathing, because I'm not taking my TS55 up on a roof... I don't want to see if it will survive the drop.

 

[sw1211]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't see a single personal affront to Nickao's post.  Some may have disagreed with aspects of his proposal, but I fail to see any personal malevolence whatsoever.  "Whining" was the harshest term used; ouch.

Much to do about nothing. 

Who knows what was said in the PM's he received, he made them sound like they may have been nastier.  All kinds of personalities/cultures here with numerous communication styles.  Thick skin may be needed at times and try not to take things personally, easier said than done, but worth a shot.

 

[Mark Carlson]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't see a single personal affront to Nickao's post.  Some may have disagreed with aspects of his proposal, but I fail to see any personal malevolence whatsoever.  "Whining" was the harshest term used; ouch.

Much to do about nothing. 

Very much to do about nothing.  I went back and reread posts looking for something worse than "whining" and couldn't find anything.  I didn't think nick was whining by the way.

~mark

 

[Brad Evans]

>>>What a bunch of hatefull, spitefull old ladies!  I hope you're all proud of your "contributions"

Not a bit of hate or spite in any of the listed comments - of which a couple were mine.

Why so angry at others expressing constructive opinions, ideas, and suggestions?

 

[Grinding One]

These are my .02 cents worth.....
  Festool prices  : Take our dollar and transfer to Euro`s ,what do you get? Our money is way lower in exchange.While I was in Germany in the 60`s one dollar was 4 marks 10 Phennings ...that was like 4 quarters and a nickle for each dollar.Later in the 70`s one dollar was 2 marks in exchange....and I`ll bet its fallen more now too....so when you say Festool cost a lot ,thats not totally right.Our money isn`t worth much anymore.
Next point,Are they good tools? Well you only have to used them after useing other brands to see the differance.When I first started buying tools I couldn`t find one person to tell me which were best to spend money on....So I went to cabinet shops to see what they used.Thats how I bought tools,the tool mags. wouldn`t tell you because of advertizement loss if they did.
  Now I thought this thread was going to be a good one because people would tell you what experiance they had ,likes or dislikes...it went to hell so fast,and that is sad.I find that the reason may be because people don`t like to spend big money to be told they bought a lemon....so they feel like suckers to be sucked into spending the big money on junk.Well I for one like Festools I own,they work fine for me,yet even with the pricey side of them.I feel you get what you pay for....so whats wrong with telling someone if you have a problem?Its something that if you have a close call with a tool I`d like to know what to watch out for....
  Well thats what I have to say,and Nick ,being a fellow Illinois fellow I liked your Idea.Hope you stick around!!

 

[ccmviking]

I wonder what ol' Ned Young thinks about all this.  I haven't heard him chime in for a while.  Are you out there Ned???

Chris...

 

[Daviddubya]

...did you read that list? I ask because you said I "Chose" to call those quotes "Hateful, spiteful" - what the heck would you call them? Supportive?, constructive?, encouraging?

Of course I read the list - several times - looking for anything that could be called hateful and/or spiteful.  I found one that I thought was distasteful.  What would I call them?  Certainly NOT hateful and/or spiteful.

If there is anything in my list of quotes that you are not proud of, I'm not responsible for that.

I have no problem with anything I said.

My point is not to pick on you personally David...

I don't think you were picking on me.  I simply think your hateful/spiteful reaction to most of the comments you quoted is off base and erroneous.

 

[pmkierst]

I don't get it. I didn't buy a MFT 800 because of comments and descriptions I found here; I decided it probably didn't fit my needs. I have held off on a OF1400 for some similar reasons (though did pull the trigger on a MFK 700, in spite of complaints voiced here).

Clearly this is not festoolsucks.com; it is hardly surprising that a festool owners group should be somewhat  enthusiastic about their tools (but you should see Lie-Nielsen vrs. Veritas wars, this place got nothing on dogmatic devotion to a brand), but I have seen lots of careful consideration of the tools. Sure it isn't a loud "THIS TOOL SUCKS", but I think there are lots of reasonably honest assessments here. Better then most, really.

As to price; well, I have found most people who moan loudly about offshoring of jobs seem to moan loudly about european or american  (or Canadian for that matter) made powertool prices, too. You can't have your jobs and your cheap stuff; something has to give.

 

[vteknical]

I see that some of the Nick flamers get quite upset when they are called out on the words they chose to type out.

In fact, they respond defensive just as Nick.  How many times in this thread was Nick re-explaining his thought process.
Doesn't feel good does it?

The reality is harsh words were not used towards Nick so does that give people right to respond with a condescending tone?

For me, I will remain an outsider looking in. Too many dominant stubborn Types A's types around here to allow variety to come in with new a perspective.  Don't get me wrong, I'm type A border line nuts too.  How else can you explain justifying buying these expensive tools.  

I find it amusing when a long time contributors words are taken as the gospel.  Yet I bet Nick has more experience and creative juice than many around, definitely including me.  Funny how when he started posting links to his work the hairs on peoples arse's popped up to take notice.  I bet some thought that Nick was just a poor SOB who nothing better to do than to post here.  

In the end, this thread would not be where it's at if some of the members did not have a vested interest or hidden agendas in seeing it shredded to pieces.  You keep hearing their is no cronyism going on but yet actions keep telling you different.

Yes.............. this Forum lost a valuable contributor today.  Oh yeah..........I had quite a bit of quality control issues with the product and it's service...... and yes Festool made it right.  Doesn't mean I'm flaming Festool.  Just asking for what I paid for is all.

Victor

 

[Qwas]

Most of you still don't seem to get it. You need to really READ his starting post:

I constantly hear great things about Festools in the Forum. How about tempering that with real experience and some negative aspects.  I am not looking for arguments or the fixes for my problems. ...

Please keep your responses  to the problems only, at least in this thread. ...

He asked for no arguments or comments about him or the purpose of the thread. Then he politely hints if you have problems with this thread then start a new one and complain. And now, 7 pages later, that's all we still have going on. He then tried starting another thread asking for the same. Same thing all over.

He was frustrated by everyone's lack of reading the initial thread. Then he got mad and vented on some members and that certainly didn't help matters. There is no telling what messages got PMed to him that also added to his frustration and anger. No telling what was going on his personal life either.

Nick is right. When we pay these kind of ridiculous prices for a power tool, we should expect perfection. Festool likes to assure us they care and strive for excellence. So what is the beef with this thread??? And if everyone thinks these tools are "God-Like" perfection, then there would be no responses to the thread.

I'm still trying to figure out the alignment issues so many seem to have with a new Domino, even though the factory says every Domino is aligned and a test cut is made. I will not buy a Domino until I know this percentage is small. I have a lot of questions about this.  There is no way I'm starting that thread now.

 

[Qwas]

I wonder what ol' Ned Young thinks about all this.  I haven't heard him chime in for a while.  Are you out there Ned???

Chris...

It appears Ned is no longer with us, check the members list. All his old posts show as "Ned, Guest".

 

[Daviddubya]

...He asked for no arguments or comments about him or the purpose of the thread....

Has it occurred to many of you that Nick was wrong to expect that he could control the content of this, or any other, forum thread simply because he started the thread?  Threads are a collection of many individual's expressions, opinions, viewpoints and/or thoughts.  Threads take on a life of their own, especially threads with 165 posts and counting and over 4000 views and counting.  What Nick asked for in his initial post in this thread was never going to happen.  And, son of a gun, it has not happened.  What a surprise!

 

[Qwas]

...He asked for no arguments or comments about him or the purpose of the thread....

Has it occurred to many of you that Nick was wrong to expect that he could control the content of this, or any other, forum thread simply because he started the thread?  Threads are a collection of many individual's expressions, opinions, viewpoints and/or thoughts.  Threads take on a life of their own, especially threads with 165 posts and counting and over 4000 views and counting.  What Nick asked for in his initial post in this thread was never going to happen.  And, son of a gun, it has not happened.  What a surprise!

So if I start a thread on the Trion Jigsaw, I should expect the conversation to be about the TS-55??? Of course not!

And if I start a thread on the Trion Jigsaw and specifically ask for no one to discuss the TS-55, then I should STILL expect the conversation to be about the TS-55???