Compatibility of Festool Drills, Batteries and Chargers

[Dave Ronyak]

There have been several threads on FOG discussing power tool battery technology, and very recently [January 31, 2009] one Battery Sale announcing that Festool is reducing prices of replacement batteries.

C 12, 1.3 Ah - from $101.00 to $55.00
C 12, 2.4 Ah - from $115.50 to $60.00
C 12, 3.0 Ah - from $129.00 to $65.00
TDK 15.6, 2.4 Ah - from $147.50 to $95.00
TDK 15.6, 3.0 Ah - from $179.50 to $115.00

I have been sitting on the fence regarding purchase of a Festool drill set, particularly C12 set Item PC1213S (with the many different quick replacement chucks) with the small (1.3 Ah NiCd) batteries.  I work at home and not at remote sites where recharging would not be possible.  The small size for access into tight work spaces and light weight are important to me.

If I buy this C12 set, will I be able to later use the drill with any of Festool's recently introduced Li-Ion batteries?

Or will I have to buy a new drill motor, too?

Will I need to buy a new charger when switching to those Li-Ion batteries.  My expectation is "yes" but I would like to know for certain.

Same questions as above except in regard to the TDK series of drills.

It would be much appreciated if Festool would have one of their experts respond in detail, or if they would publish a clear and comprehensive press release regarding forward and backward compatibility of their drills, batteries and battery chargers.

Absent compatibility and an absolute requirement for the optional chucks i.e., nothing else made by any other manufacturer will work), why should I buy a Festool drill and not that of a competitor, such as Panasonic's Li-ion powered set including separate drill and impact drivers, that are available for about the same cost as a basic C12 without the optional chucks?

Dave R.

 

[JayStPeter]

From what I understand, new drills can use old batteries.  But, old drills cannot use the new Li-Ion.

 

[tbellemare]

Dave:

I don't think you will be disappointed with ANY Festool drill. I think there might be some misinformation swirling about regarding both the quality of Festool drills/batteries and the technology that defines cordless tools...

I am a drill guy. I was raised by a drill guy. I also was schooled by one of the guys that came up with the "Big Bang" theory and another, who got a Nobel prize for "Bucky Balls". I don't "sling opinions".

Tom

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Tom.

Yours is obviously a good opinion, the perspective of one who has real knowledge.  I've witnessed the capabilities of the C12 when at Festool's Henderson training center last April.  But those demonstrations do not provide any information about the longevity of the batteries under various user scenarios.  Battery life, "memory" and obsolence issues are my chief concerns.

I'm not going to be a heavy user of any drill.  For me, a bigger issue is the life of the batteries when the tool will not be put to regular heavy use.  My usage will likely be moderate during certain projects (e.g. repairing my deck), but with many days of rest between such projects.  If the batteries hold their charge between uses, I might not need to recharge even the small battery more than once or twice per month. 

PS, be careful about those bucky ball stories.  Was your teacher Richard Smalley, born in Akron, OH and later at Rice?  Bucky Balls and especially bucky tubes and fibers are amazing structures and offer great potential in many composite structures.  Unfortunately, too many of those stories are just that -- only stories.  Like yourself, I've also had the good fortune to work with several highly talented and gifted people.  One is Al Worden whose office until his retirement was only a few doors from mine.  Al was an Apollo 15 astronaut and a test pilot who did much of the instrument only, dead stick landing trials with no direct line of eyesight to the runway that were used to determine landings of the Space Shuttle.

Dave R.

 

[tbellemare]

Dave:

I fully understand your concern about how cordless technology applies to your particular situation. Memory effect is a consideration but can be at least partially amelierated by charging technolgy.

If you haven't had the chance to use a C 12, I hope you can find a Festool dealer that will allow you to use one for a while so that you can see for yourself how powerful the tool is and how long the batteries last.

I consider that only a part of the value. With only a shirt with breast pockets or a gimme nail apron, you can easily travel with what otherwise counts as 2-3, or 4 drills; maybe 5 drills. Crawling around an attic or up and down a ladder, that really matters.

BTW, Dave, you're pretty perceptive...

Dick Smalley was my Freshman Chemistry prof'. 'The only person I ever met that made Chemistry seem interesting.

Go Steelers,

Tom

 

[mwhafner]

Dave,

First let me say that I would love to have a chance to sit down and hear some of your stories.  I am an Electronics Engineer, who works in the Telecom field.  I love to spend time with the old Bell Labs guys.  It is amazing how much technology that most consider cutting edge was invented 20 or 30 years ago.  

I was at a party a few years ago and met one of the British Airways engineers that designed the Concord (SST).  It was one of the most memorable conversations of my life.  We spent three hours discussing the future of flight, energy, etc.  

Now to the meat of the matter, the Festool drills.  I bought the C12 2.4ah kit about 2 1/2 years ago.  As an engineer, I was intrigued by the technology (three phase motor, etc).  The electronics in the battery and charger are second to none.  I have had no loss of runtime or power, period.  Festool incorporates safeguards in the C12 that prevent you from damaging the batteries.  There are overload and weak battery warning that prevent you from "overextending" your batteries.  The charger also prevents overcharging.  The C12 is also the smoothest operating drill that I have ever used.  It packs in tremendous amount of torque in a way that you do not feel it.

I have owned most of the other brand - Makita, Milwaukee, Dewalt, and Bosch.  None hold a candle to the C12, even at 33% more voltage.  I guess that my work habits are hard on cordless tools, because I am always replacing the battery for one of them.  

I also have Hilti and Snap-On impact tools, so it is hard to make a direct comparison of power, but the battery life of the Festool has been better.  

The one comparison that I cannot make is to Panasonic.  I have never owned one of their tools.  The people that have rave about them.  

I think the C12 is just another example of the great tools Festool produces.  Others may argue, but I think it is every bit as  ingenious as the guide rails, MFT, and TS saws.  

 

[Steve Jones]

Dave,

I've used most brands of cordless drills/drivers over the years and had (I thought) happily settled on impact drivers because they put less torque back into your wrist than other types of drivers.

I have also constantly looked for a lighter but still powerful driver, something I can use all day with both enough battery power and light weight to hold the darn thing all day (My days are usually spend putting together cabinets).

Tom (Your last respondent) I'm proud to say is my local dealer, he loaned me the c12 a few weeks ago, and this week I finally purchased one. The true advantage of this little gem (like most Festool items) is simply better design.

1) Nothing I've used before feels more 'right' or balanced in the hand, you can slip a finger under the body in front of the trigger to scoop it off the floor and it balances there (no other drill I have owned or used does that) which means it's in the right position and ready to use when I bring it up to the spot, no switching positions or flipping it one handed while holding something in place.

2) one of my guys comments was "what a gentle little screwdriver" and he's right, it doesn't tend to overpower the job, yet has always enough torque for the job.

3) when I stand it on the bench it doesn't fall on it's face (or the bit)

4) The concentric bits really are much tighter than any others I've used, no slop or frantic little circles at the end of the bit.

5) Despite some comments I've reads on here, the chucks do an excellent job of being truly universal, The centrotec is designed for centrotec bits, the others (extension, offset, and right angle) are designed to take wire detent bits - but they do an excellent job of holding ball detent bits too, in fact with my c12 I can fit and use any of the bits I have collected over the years, this is because the wire detent chucks use three balls to retain the bit (not the usual single ball).

6) ideal for detail work (I also own the Metabo derringer sized screwdriver that came complete with a right angle and jacobs style chuck - but reach for the C12 first every time).

7) As Tom said, it's like taking several drills and drivers to the job at once, on Friday I was predrilling and screwing steel, it was easy to fit a HSS bit into the fastfix chuck and a driver bit into the centrotec chuck, switching checks is as quick as quick change bits (actually it's easier and faster) if I found myself making lots of different sized holes for any job I'd go buy another fastfix chuck

8) Like so many of the Festool items you don't realize how truly well designed they are until you've used them for some time - I truly recommend buying one and trying it for a month - what have you got to lose?

Steve

 

[JayStPeter]

I have a TDK 12.  All the advantages are true.  But, my battery life hasn't been stellar.  It's a good thing it has a fast 15 minute charge, I've needed it pretty often.

 

[Forrest Anderson]

I have a TDK 12.  All the advantages are true.  But, my battery life hasn't been stellar.  It's a good thing it has a fast 15 minute charge, I've needed it pretty often.

What battery are you using? Chemistry and Ah rating are major factors in runtime and no-one is ever going to get stellar runtime out of a 12V 1.3Ah NiCd battery in a drill. As far as I know, at least three different 12V batteries were available, including:

1.3Ah NiCd
2.4Ah NiCd
3.0Ah NiMH

Forrest

 

[JayStPeter]

Forrest,

I understand Ah ratings.  I'm not sure what is on my drill, but whatever was standard with the TDK 12 Kit that included the 3 different heads.  I'm pretty sure they're 2.4s. 

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Thanks, Tom, mhafner, and Steve for your detailed comments and observations on your obviously very positive experiences with the C12 drill and its batteries.  But can anyone answer the questions that caused me to start this thread?  Festool's promotional literature for its recently introduced T12+3 and T15+3 drills expressly states that these new drills come with Li-Ion batteries and that they and their associated new battery chargers can also be used with older NiCd and NiMH batteries from earlier C12 and T-series drills. 

But what about the reverse -- can the newer batteries (together with their new chargers) be used with current C12 drills?

1) If I buy any current model C12 set, will I be able to later use this drill with any of Festool's recently introduced Li-Ion batteries or will I have to always feed it with the now-being-discontinued NiCd and/or NiMH batteries?

2) Or will I have to buy a new drill motor, too?

3) Will I need to buy a new charger when switching to those Li-Ion batteries.  From reading the new T+3 drills brochure, my expectation is "yes" but I would like to know for certain.

A thirty day tool trial period cannot answer my questions.

Dave R.

 

[mwhafner]

Thanks, Tom, mhafner, and Steve for your detailed comments and observations on your obviously very positive experiences with the C12 drill and its batteries.  But can anyone answer the questions that caused me to start this thread?  Festool's promotional literature for its recently introduced T12+3 and T15+3 drills expressly states that these new drills come with Li-Ion batteries and that they and their associated new battery chargers can also be used with older NiCd and NiMH batteries from earlier C12 and T-series drills.

But what about the reverse -- can the newer batteries (together with their new chargers) be used with current C12 drills?

1) If I buy any current model C12 set, will I be able to later use this drill with any of Festool's recently introduced Li-Ion batteries or will I have to always feed it with the now-being-discontinued NiCd and/or NiMH batteries?

2) Or will I have to buy a new drill motor, too?

3) Will I need to buy a new charger when switching to those Li-Ion batteries.  From reading the new T+3 drills brochure, my expectation is "yes" but I would like to know for certain.

A thirty day tool trial period cannot answer my questions.

Dave R.

1) No you will not, to my understanding, be able to use the new batteries with the older C12.  Since I don't have one of the new drills, I can't answer positively.

2) If you want the advantages of Lithium, you are probably better off waiting get the new drill.  I think weight is probably the biggest factor here.  As I stated earlier, I think the electronics of the C12 mitigate the other advantages of Li-ion.

3) I would imagine that the charger that comes with the C12 will not be usable on the new batteries.  Again, it is educated speculation.

 

[JayStPeter]

I can't remember where I read all this, but I know I did.  I went searching for the same answer hoping I could use the new batteries in my TDK, which I've been nursing dying batteries in for a couple years.  My understanding is that the new drills (and chargers) have additional electronics that connect to new pins on the battery packs.  Festool implemented the new pins sort of like the plug-it cords, where the new batteries require an additional slot or keyway but the old batteries still fit.  The old drills don't have the additional keyway or electronics to support the new batteries and cannot use them.  I think the new pins/electronics prevent the drills from damaging the battery packs by overheating or running them too low.

I wish I could remember where I read all that, it's on the internet somewhere  :.  But, I am convinced that my TDK will not run a Festool Li-Ion pack.

Edit:
Look at this brochure http://www.festool.co.uk/images/gb_downloads/brochure_tSeries.pdf

At the bottom of the 2nd page there is a picture of the new battery.  The part that sticks up at the back of the battery pack with the 3 pins on it is the new piece.  It will prevent the battery from fully engaging in the old drills.

Further down on page 15 they show the different batteries.

 

[tbellemare]

Hi Dave:

The new batteries (available in May) don't work with the current drills.

The current batteries work with the new drills (available in May). The current batteries also work with the new battery charger.

I don't consider the price reduction an indication that Festool is selling out of stock. Rather, I think they are just pricing batteries more reasonably. If you look on page 133 of the current (2009) catalog, you will notice that the current batteries (NiCd & NiMH) are priced considerably higher than the future batteries (Li-ion). Li-ion battery technology is more advanced and they are more expensive to produce.

I think somebody at Festool came down to Earth and repriced the current battery technology. Maybe they became aware that people were nursing essentially dead batteries and complaining to others about how lousy their Festool batteries were. I don't really know the answer to why they did it.

I personally love the C 12. It is the first drill I have held in one hand and could apply all of my pushing force directly down the axis of rotation. That is really a significant design improvement. Unless your hand is about twice the size of mine (I wear size large gloves), you can't do that with any "T" drills I've seen. It takes two hands, one pushing on the back of the motor and one pulling the trigger. I think I saw a Panasonic once that had a similar configuration but have never held one.

If the force isn't applied along the axis of rotation, multiple problems can arise, depending on the operation. The most obvious problem is with a small bit... It tends to bend and break. Like I said in an earlier posting, my father was a drill guy and he taught me at a very early age to always push down the axis of rotation. It makes a difference.

That is the first thing I noticed about the C 12 and it was enough to make me learn all of the other wonderful features and technological advances.

Tom

 

[JayStPeter]

I think somebody at Festool came down to Earth and repriced the current battery technology. Maybe they became aware that people were nursing essentially dead batteries and complaining to others about how lousy their Festool batteries were.

Now who would do something like that?  ;D 8)

Seriously, with the new pricing I'm going to pick up a set of batteries this week.  So, if that was the reason ... it may be working.  I am hopeful they will last longer before the "nursing" phase than the original set.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Thanks, Tom, Jay and mhafner, for your "sleuthing" and very useful replies.

I obtained the new 2009 USA catalog yesterday, and noted the lower pricing of the new Li-Ion batteries compared to that of the older NiCd and NiMH types, and thought that strange because I know that is has cost more to make Li-Ion batteries unless Festool or their battery supplier recently made some significant break-through in manufacturing technology.  Could it be due to both market forces  (the relatively very high price of Festool's NiCd and NiMH batteries compared to competitors) and the widening use and interest in battery-powered automobiles?

I note that the new T+3 drills only come as a set with additional chucks, yet it appears that no Jacobs style chuck is included unlike the C12 sets.  So a T112+3 set with all the chucks included in a C12 set will cost at least $575 for the same nominal capabilities (excepting the new Li-Ion batteries and charger.  I also note there appears to be a misprint on pg 133 since the same keyless chuck Item 490698 is priced at $55 for the C12 and $49.50 for the T drills.

Dave R.

 

[nickao]

I like the looks of the  T+ drills better than the C 12. I just can not justify the expense for me. If they were half the cost I would jump on it though. I just have an issue with 575.00 for a drill. Even if it changes it still is one drill and if it breaks you have no back up.

I am just to happy with the Panasonic's I have to make a switch.

If you get it Dave let us know if you like it. I think you being retired maybe you can justify it as a toy you earned for working so hard for so many years. I still have many years of hard work ahead to get your thirty years in one industry.

 

[mwhafner]

ote that the new T+3 drills only come as a set with additional chucks, yet it appears that no Jacobs style chuck is included unlike the C12 sets.

Dave,

  In the chart on page 132, it shows all of them have the "FastFix keyless chuck" as part of the standard package.  At the bottom of the page, it lists the chuck on the C12, but not on the T+3 kits.  I am not sure which to believe.

 

[tbellemare]

It is my understanding that the new +3 drills are sold with the Centrotec Starter Set, plus the Keyless Jacobs style, Right Angle, and Eccentric chucks. I also noticed, as did you Dave, that there are places in the new documentation that are confusing or poorly written. All of these chucks and the one below are FastFix chucks, you can change them in a flash with no tools.

You don't get the Depth-Stop chuck so it is the equivalent of the C 12 Sets.

Tom

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Tom,

Festool USA must be providing you different information than appears at the bottom of page 132 of their 2009 catalog.  For examples, mine reads as follows:

Under both T12+3 and T15+3 "Only sold as a set.  See chart below.

And below:

Package Sets

(First entry)
Cordless drill C 12 1.3 Ah
Includes C 12 drill, LC 45 charger; [2] 1.3 Ah CiCD batteries; Centrotec starter set; Systainer 1, and three FastFix chucks: standard, right angle and eccentric.

(Fourth enty)
Cordless drill T 12+3
Includes T 12 +3 drill, TR C 3 charger; [2] 2.6 Ah Li-Ion batteries; Centrotec starter set; Systainer 1, and two FastFix chucks: right angle and eccentric.

Thus, according to their 2009 USA catalog, a "standard" keyless Jacobs-style chuck is NOT included with the T 12+3 drill set.  The listing for the T 15+3 is similar.

Is this due to a printing error or does a customer who is buys a new T style drill set have to pay ~$50 extra to also obtain a FastFix Jacobs style chuck so he can use commonly available drill bits having round shanks?  Without that Jacobs style chuck a Festool drill would be rather useless to me, unless I also intended to buy a set of Festool's drills equipped with Centrotec hex shanks or the Centrotec holders for round shank bits.  I'm still working primarily with Imperial sized drills and taps, and own many high quality round shank twist drills and Forstner bits, including a left hand twist set.  I also already own a set of high quality HSS round shank twist bits (1 to 10mm in 0.5mm steps) that I purchased when in Berlin Dec. 2007.

In looking at page 136 of the new USA catalog, I notice two sets of entries for Centrotec HSS spiral drill bits

What, exactly, is provided under Item 493421 as compared to Item 493437?  As structured in the catalog it appears that a complete 3.0mm twist drill with Centrotec holder can be purchased for less cost than a replacement 3.0mm bit for that bit holder, and looking back at page 134, that a 3.0mm bit with integrally formed Centrotec hex shank Item 492512 can be purchased at the same cost as Item 493437.  Considered together, these listings and price structure do not seem logical to me!

Please clarify if you can, and thanks for your efforts in doing so!

Dave R.