Considering a Hammer K3 - What options do owners recommend?

[MikkelF]

Thats exactly the use-cases where I would imagine a shaper would shine.
As you Im also mostly into square or mitered cuts using dominos for easev of mind on the glue ups. Thanks again for your comments

Others who has similar experience with their shapers?

 

[cider]

- Should I spend additionally $1.500 to upgrade it to a B3 instead - and having a shaper build in would you say that would eliminate the need for a dedicated router table? If that's the case the real price increase would be decreased to somewhere around $500 and I would save some precious floor space.

Only you can answer this, but my guess is that if you don't know whether or not you need it, you can probably live without it.  I bought a B3 about two years ago with no shaper experience, and knowing what I know now, I'm still not sure if I would have bought the shaper again.  IMO, a shaper can't do everything a router table can do (and vice versa).

Shaper tooling is expensive (and you can't run down to Woodcraft and grab a new cutter), and the fence is a heavy beast that you have to store somewhere and set up when you want to use the spindle.  Upsides compared to the router?  It's quieter (or at least less annoying), has better dust collection, often has better cut quality, and it can remove more material than a router could ever dream of.  Also, the B3 has a tilting spindle, and it's reversible (so you can flip the cutter over); two features I've personally never seen on a router table.

For small jobs or little profiles I use the router.  If I need to process a lot of stock or remove a lot of material, I set up the shaper and use it. 

 

[MikkelF]

Im sticking with the K3. Thanks for all the input it really helped me clear my mind about what I “need” 

 

[derekcohen]

Mikke, I think you will be very happy with your choice. It is inevitable that there will be some second doubts later, but be reassured that the absence of a machine should never limit or restrict anyone ... just create a reason to find another route.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[MikkelF]

Thank you Derek - I absolutely agree 8)

 

[casper]

My take on what accessories to order, please keep in mind you can order a basic machine and add anything available later and the cost works out about the same. The K3 is like a Meccano set in that any accessory available for it can be fitted by the owner later on. I would not buy the shorter table for a bet but I have a large workshop so space is not a problem. I added the outrigger later on and fitting it was a bolt on job. There is an advantage to doing this as well, buying the basic saw sans outrigger means you receive it fitted with the cross cut fence fitted to the operator end and one of those weird grey tables for outboard support and that works well. Adding the outrigger later on gives you the outrigger with another cross cut fence so you then have the choice of either fence in front or rear configurations.

The fine adjustment is a great addition if you do as Derek and myself have done and add a DRO to the rip fence. No more tapping and nudging is needed, get it close and wind the final bit to the dimension needed. One thing I did which I haven't seen any others do is because I rip using the slider most of the time I don't need a full length rip fence and it only gets in the way. I bought another fence and cut it up into 200mm lengths and use this short fence/DRO as a dimension stop for cross cutting. I got four lengths out of a full length fence and sold the other three to pay for the purchase. The full length rip fence sits on a wall for the few times it is needed, just remove the short one and fit the longer one.

I bought the dado arbour kit and didn't use it for years because I simply was not going to pay the price for the Felder version as good as it may be. I bought a unused 8" CMT kit second hand and drilled the pin holes in it (my tool maker B in L did it) and I was not impressed with the results until I got a saw doctor to grind the outer diameters flat again and re-sharpen the cutters and now it is perfect, absolutely awesome in fact. If you want to do dados deeper than about 15mm then buy a six inch set, the problem is that the tabs to hold the zero clearance insert prevent the eight inch set being raised beyond about 15mm above the table, an angle grinder would fix the issue but I suspect few owners would want to cut the tabs off.

I bought one of the Felder/Leitz diamond blades as well recently and instantly all my other blades became redundent, they are eye wateringly expensive but all the blades I have cost me way more than a single diamond blade. I no longer have to change blades to rip or cross cut and there is no splintering or chipping on plywood or melamine so it makes the scoring blade redundant for all practicle purposes. It is also way more quiter than a standard blade, astonishingly so in fact. Felder also supply a 5mm slotting blade which is a really nice thing and not much more expensive than a branded normal blade which is a bit of a change. 

You cannot operate the K3 without a dust extractor hooked up to the cabinet port, I've tried and it doesn't work! [crying] [mad]

Buy the saw and forget everything you learned using a cabinet saw. Youtube has some really good videos but the best ones are done by Sam Blascoe who is a Minimax rep and knows all about sliders and how to use them, definitely required viewing. Steve Rowe also has a series and shows his version of a F&F jig that is worth watching. There are plenty of others and a few who have never gotten rid of cabinet saw thinking and are critical of sliders and the K3.
 

 

[cider]

I was curious about those diamond blades.  Firsthand reports are scarce.  One thing I've noticed with the scoring blade is that it goes very slightly out of adjustment occasionally.  I feel like I have to test it out before cutting something important if I've raised/lowered it much or changed blades.  I also discovered that the kerf tolerances on the cheap Tenryu blades aren't very good, which makes matching multiple blades with the scoring blade an exercise in futility.  I ended up buying nicer blades which are true to size.  Add all that up and I could have bought a diamond blade with money to spare  

In any case, it doesn't look like they're on the US Felder e-shop any more.

 

[casper]

Leitz sell what I am led to believe is the same blade under their brand, at least they do in Oz. Using one actually saves a lot of money and they are simply are great blade and it never needs to be changed. I am sure Felder would get one in or you could buy one from a distribtor in another country but that seems to be something that people in the US are reluctant to do for some reason where we in Oz do it routinely.  One exception I would make would be never to use it when resawing wood that has previously been used even if it has been checked with a metal detector.

 

[krudawg]

I purchased my Hammer K3 Winner about 3 years ago.  I love the saw as it is my first sliding table saw.  The only option I bought was the mobility kit which I highly recommend you do as well.  There are plenty of YouTube video's on setting the saw up but your first challenge is getting it off the shipping pallet.  They explain how to build a ramp on the pallet to roll the unit off.  They recommend you have a pallet jack - do not buy the pallet jack from Harbor Freight because the spacing on the lifting forks does not work on the saw base - at least not well.  You need a pallet jack with adjustable lifting forks.  I did use the HF pallet jack but as I said, the lifting fork spacing will not allow you to get BOTH forks under the saw.  I wound up "balancing it" on one fork and carefully rolling it down the ramp.  I did not order the longer sliding table or outrigger system because my shop is very small

 

[MikkelF]

Just ordered a A3-41 Spiral as well - It's going to be some christmas this year

I decided to modify my order for the K3. I replaced the scoring blade setup, the rip-cut and the cross-cut blades with the Felder diamond blade (I did keep the universal saw blade for cuts where I wont like to use the diamondblade). I will use the diamond blade as the primary blade for the saw, so I won't have to change blade between rip and cross cuts and it's supposed to cut hardwoods like butter and with less noise and leave no marks. Really looking forward to test it IRL

 

[Huggehus-Lars]

I have the outrigger table and the longer sliding table (1250 mm).  The outrigger table is a nice thing to have if you are cutting plywood as it helps to stabilize the larger material.  For me, it was a transition from conventional cabinet tablesaw to a sliding tablesaw.  Is it necessary to have the outrigger, that is more of a personal choice.  My thought was to put the options on the unit as an initial purchase.  Just last night I was using the outrigger table on the saw to cut larger sheets. 

Definitely get the 900 mm Crosscut fence. 

If you are considering the rolling cart portion of the saw, that is something where I might suggest looking at the Bora mobile base.  I bought the original mobile unit sold by Felder, but found that having the Bora mobile base is a more friendly in my shop.

I also agree the Fritz and Franz setup is a good idea.  However, there is a good series on YouTube for building your own.

Hi Indywoodworker,
I have a Hammer type mobile unit on a band saw and it is a pain to use - and then you have to store the handle bar. So I can see you preferring a mobile base like the Bora. However, did the standard Bora mobile base fit the machine? The Bora website says that the PM-3550 "Adjusts from 20.75 x 23.75 inches to 28 x 33.5 inches (53x60 cm to 71x85 cm)". I am in the process of ordering a Hammer B3 winner, which I believe has the same cabinet dimensions as the K3 winner of 76cm x 96cm. Thus the Bora base does not seem to be large enough? Or do I get something wrong here?

 

[IndyWoodworker]

I believe BORA sell expansion bars for the mobile base which I bought.  I will take a photograph of the setup and include with my next response.  I have a preference for the following mobile bases in my shop: 1) BORA PM-3550 Super-Duty All-Swivel Mobile Base (Hammer K3) with extension bars and 2) Rockler All-Terrain Mobile Base (H950 Sander and A3-21 Jointer/Planar).  I do have the Hammer N4400 with the original Felder mobility kit, but I will eventually replace that with either a mobile base from Rockler or from Bora.  With these mobile bases, the machines move quite easily in my shop when I need them to and when I want to fix them in a location, i engage the locking mechanism. 

I hope this helps with the photograph that I attached.  The mobile base is fairly robust and seems to hold up well when I move the saw around the shop.  I just have to remember that the saw is heavy and it does take a little oomph.

 

[Mini Me]

Leitz sell what I am led to believe is the same blade under their brand, at least they do in Oz. Using one actually saves a lot of money and they are simply are great blade and it never needs to be changed. I am sure Felder would get one in or you could buy one from a distribtor in another country but that seems to be something that people in the US are reluctant to do for some reason where we in Oz do it routinely.  One exception I would make would be never to use it when resawing wood that has previously been used even if it has been checked with a metal detector.

Since writing this I have to recant some of the above. I recently found that when cutting thick mitres (40mm in pine) we experienced blade deflection and had to change the blade. You will also need the matching riving knife for the blade as well. Another gotcha when changing blades of different kerfs is that the calibration on the fence goes out the window as well. Even with these issues I wouldn't go back to normal blades as the diamond one saves so much time in unneeded blade changes.

 

[blaszcsj]

Leitz sell what I am led to believe is the same blade under their brand, at least they do in Oz. Using one actually saves a lot of money and they are simply are great blade and it never needs to be changed. I am sure Felder would get one in or you could buy one from a distribtor in another country but that seems to be something that people in the US are reluctant to do for some reason where we in Oz do it routinely.  One exception I would make would be never to use it when resawing wood that has previously been used even if it has been checked with a metal detector.

Since writing this I have to recant some of the above. I recently found that when cutting thick mitres (40mm in pine) we experienced blade deflection and had to change the blade. You will also need the matching riving knife for the blade as well. Another gotcha when changing blades of different kerfs is that the calibration on the fence goes out the window as well. Even with these issues I wouldn't go back to normal blades as the diamond one saves so much time in unneeded blade changes.

I agree. I have this blade and it is really nice. I bought it thru Felder (you have to ask for it as it is not on their eshop). I concur with all the pros/cons from above. It is really nice for ripping. you get alot better yield, no burning, and it is alot easier to push material thru.

 

[egmiii]

Glad to hear there are happy user of the diamond blade. I ordered one last week.

 

[Chris_Barr]

Hello All

I am considering a Hammer K3, (or perhaps a Minimax SC2). Space is quite limited so I don't think I have room for the outrigger table for panel crosscuts therefore ruling out the K3 Winner Comfort (the one with the outrigger table attached to the sliding table as standard).

Some of the options remaining on their Basic/Winner Lines include:

Sliding Table itself: Length of 800mm (base option) or 1250mm

Fences
Crosscut Fence: 900mm (base) or add 750mm extension
Rip Fence: Basic Rip Fence / Rip Fence with Large round bar / Cast iron rip fence rip capacity 800mm
Fine adjustment for pro rip fence

Saw unit
Scoring: No / Yes
Dado Unit: I am in Europe, didnt know these were allowed? Anyone have any experience?

Other
Rolling castors + Lifting bar

Anyone owners past or present care to share their experience? Oh, I intend on using this saw for a variety of work, some panels, some boards etc.

Thanks

Hi Prizen

I have the K3 Winner with 1250 wagon (it actually rips 1345mm), along with the Professional (upgraded) fence (the one on the round bar), no scoring unit, and I do not do dados on a table saw.

My target area is solid wood furniture. I do not work with MDF or chipboard. If you work with melamine coatings, then you need a scoring blade. Not relevant for me.

My space is limited to a double garage (and half of this is for machines, the other half for hand tools) ...

Older photos ...

The K3 has received a number of modifications/additions to improve it. One is the Wixey digital gauge ...

Another was the addition of a router table to the outfeed ...

Read up on Fritz & Frans jig - lots on YouTube. The wagon without the outrigger requires that it work in reverse. Consequently I designed a "reversed F&F jig" ...

Using the F&F makes you aware that a 800mm wagon is too short. Do not be tempted to get one. The 1250 works well (and there are ways to make it work longer - more on this another time).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Guys,

I'm relatively new to this forum but have found the information and ideas surrounding the K3 winner invaluable when deciding whether to buy one or not. It seems like the advice and info given by members has helped a number of people make the move towards the K3.

I was wondering whether you might be able to help me decide one final thing. I have already placed an order for the K3 winner, with dado option, 1250mm slider, a couple of blades and the triangular slider side extension but I can't decide whether upgrading to the steel 'Felder Professional' rip fence with round steel bar would be a worthwhile addition. Here in the UK it is a reasonable bump in price but I'm torn to whether it would be a worthwhile investment and wondered what you guys thought.

Really looking forward to receiving my machine but would just like some advice in putting this rip fence niggle to bed!

Thanks in advance,

Cheers,

Chris

 

[derekcohen]

Chris, since those pictures were taken I have added a micro-adjuster to the Professional rip fence ...

This, together with the Wixey digital read out, is a sublime combination. I am not sure whether the lower specified fence can do this.

One thing that can be done with the round fence rail is angling/tilting the rip fence to a vertical position. This gets it out of the way for long cross cuts. It would be impossible with the square rail.

Overall, I imagine the round fence and Professional rip fence is a more solid and advanced fence.

The slider also now has a parallel guide I designed. This is simply amazing, and I recommend it to all with sliders. It replaces a Fritz and Frans ...

Details: 

Lastly, I added a micro-adjuster to the slider crosscut fence ...

Detail: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered Tools and Machinery/CrosscutFenceMicroAdjust.html

I have also added a Power Tool and Machinery page to my website (which is otherwise predominantly hand tool orientated) ...
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered Tools and Machinery/index.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Chris_Barr]

Hi Derek,

Thanks for the reply.

I think I'll bite the bullet and go for the pro fence and bar. It looks like a sturdier option to the aluminium round bar that is the other option and it also looks like it had a better readout.

Thanks again,

Chris

 

[infer]

I find the K3 Winner fence with aluminum round bar the worst. Even the square Basic K3 fence is better.
When you tighten the screw to secure the fence the assembly rotates and messes up your measurement. Upgrade or downgrade!

 

[Chris_Barr]

I find the K3 Winner fence with aluminum round bar the worst. Even the square Basic K3 fence is better.
When you tighten the screw to secure the fence the assembly rotates and messes up your measurement. Upgrade or downgrade!

Thanks for your insight! I spoke to the Felder rep yesterday and have upgraded to the cam lock steel bar.