Consumer Product Safety Commision (USA) may be making moves

[rmhinden]

[member=57948]ChuckS[/member]  That matches my experience.  My SawStop PCS is the third table saw that I have owned.  On the first two I removed the blade guard because it didn't work well and got in the way.  These saws also didn't have a riving knife either.

On my PCS, I use the dust collection guard all of the time except for thin and non-thru cuts.  Then I use the extra riving knife.  Besides safety, the dust collection feature is almost incentive enough to use the blade guard.  Probably a side effect of being a Festool owner/user

 

[Cheese]

My SawStop PCS is the third table saw that I have owned.  On the first two I removed the blade guard because it didn't work well and got in the way.  These saws also didn't have a riving knife either.

I purchased my Bosch table saw 18 years ago and after about 6-9 months of use, I removed the guard & the riving knife. I've used it like that ever since, [smile] until recently, when maybe because of old age(?) I decided I had cheated the odds long enough and I didn't want to pay the price.

So, a year ago I reinstalled the items and now I really don't know why I didn't do this earlier?  [eek] It feels better with the guard/riving knife attached. [doh]

 

[ChuckM]

About the riving knife. It is a critical feature for my operation because I use the table saw for resawing more than using the bandsaw, the former of which is much faster and dustless, and it involves no blade change.

Unlike what is suggested in the manual, my riving knife is aligned to the right side of the teeth rather than the left. In resawing, the knife keeps the stock to the fence where applicable before it reaches the second featherboard, offering cleaner cuts and less machine or burn marks:

[attachimg=1]                  [attachimg=2]

By the way, even with a riving knife in place, I wouldn't crosscut a piece that is wider in its width than length or pull a workpiece backward like this:

 

[jimbo51]

Interesting that the new Festool table saw would be banned if the SawStop technology is required.

 

[Cheese]

Interesting that the new Festool table saw would be banned if the SawStop technology is required.

Or would it...there's always a work-around when $ales are involved.

 

[ChuckM]

One option (worst comes to worst):

Sell TKS in the USA
Make other Festool table saws NAINA.

But I am sure TTS has a better game plan under its sleeve.

 

[SoonerFan]

I purchased my Bosch table saw 18 years ago and after about 6-9 months of use, I removed the guard & the riving knife. I've used it like that ever since, [smile] until recently, when maybe because of old age(?) I decided I had cheated the odds long enough and I didn't want to pay the price.

So, a year ago I reinstalled the items and now I really don't know why I didn't do this earlier?  [eek] It feels better with the guard/riving knife attached. [doh]

Good move putting these back on [member=44099]Cheese[/member].  Better safe than sorry as the old saying goes.  I got a SawStop PCS just to be safer but also use the blade guard or riving knife.

And like you I do more to be safe the older I get.  I take more time to be aware of my surroundings, wear eye protection more often, wear N95 masks when dust is flying and more reliably wear safety glasses.

 

[Cheese]

And like you I do more to be safe the older I get.  I take more time to be aware of my surroundings, wear eye protection more often, wear N95 masks when dust is flying and more reliable wear safety glasses.

Thanks for that... [not worthy] [not worthy] [not worthy]...at some point it just becomes a point of realization that you're more vulnerable to the outside influences that you have no control over. Despite the fact that 30 years ago you flaunted those vulnerabilities.

 

[Sparktrician]

I purchased my Bosch table saw 18 years ago and after about 6-9 months of use, I removed the guard & the riving knife. I've used it like that ever since, [smile] until recently, when maybe because of old age(?) I decided I had cheated the odds long enough and I didn't want to pay the price.

So, a year ago I reinstalled the items and now I really don't know why I didn't do this earlier?  [eek] It feels better with the guard/riving knife attached. [doh]

I, too, have a Bosch table saw from the mid-2000s, and love it.  And I'm waiting for the next Bosch REAXX to be available in the US before I migrate on to a safer saw.  I'm keenly aware of the value of riving knives and blade guards, having seen the results of my very own dear, sweet, bald-headed old man attempting to slightly shorten a couple of fingers with a radial arm saw when he was building kneelers for the church, having never used a powered saw before, and having had NO training in woodworking, never mind tool safety. 

 

[jronman]

Today, SawStop posted a news release stating it will dedicate its key patent to the public on the effective date of a rule requiring safety technology on all table saws.

That seems pretty big to me

SawStop To Dedicate Key U.S. Patent To The Public Upon The Effective Date Of A Rule Requiring Safety Technology On All Table Saws

What doesn't make sense is why spend 20 years trying to ban competition to protect your patent then all of a sudden be open to making the patent public? This isn't the first time the CPSC has looked into requiring flesh saving technology in table saws. SawStop has been threatened by similar rulings a couple of times but why they chose now doesn't make sense. Maybe they have something up their sleeve for more patent lock downs on other products. They got their 20 years on table saws maybe they want their 20 on another product. There was a rumor recently that SawStop is working on a bandsaw. A band saw is different enough that I could see SawStop pulling an, "Our table saw patent ran out today. It just so happens we have a bunch of patents ready to file for today to lock down safety tech for band saws. Anyone who wants to make a competing system you can't. If you do we will pursue legal action just like we did with table saws. You're welcome."

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.There was a rumor recently that SawStop is working on a bandsaw. Snip.

I hope that rumor is true because an Australian finger-saving technology is already adopted in down under for bandsaws (in the meat-cutting sector). Competition is always welcomed. I also hope SawStop or anyone else would research and develop a finger-saving technology for the miter saws.

 

[jronman]

Could that affect SawStops attempts at locking down bandsaws? If another company from a different country already has the patents would SawStop have to license from them? Here is the link to the article I read.https://toolguyd.com/sawstop-band-saw-pbs/

 

[ChuckM]

SawStop isn't in the business of making bandsaws (yet?), but if it or any bandsaw manufacturer is interested in doing something with a license, they should be able to do so as long as they can meet the licensing requirements offered by the technology owner. Who knows? Maybe SawStop or some existing bandsaw manufacturers have been talking to this inventor for some time already:


While still on the topic of saw safety, I wonder why this technology hasn't seen any movement in terms of commercial applications. I know many people still use a circular saw without a track in situations where it can't be used with a track:

 

[semenza]

Today, SawStop posted a news release stating it will dedicate its key patent to the public on the effective date of a rule requiring safety technology on all table saws.

That seems pretty big to me

SawStop To Dedicate Key U.S. Patent To The Public Upon The Effective Date Of A Rule Requiring Safety Technology On All Table Saws

What doesn't make sense is why spend 20 years trying to ban competition to protect your patent then all of a sudden be open to making the patent public? This isn't the first time the CPSC has looked into requiring flesh saving technology in table saws. SawStop has been threatened by similar rulings a couple of times but why they chose now doesn't make sense. Maybe they have something up their sleeve for more patent lock downs on other products. They got their 20 years on table saws maybe they want their 20 on another product. There was a rumor recently that SawStop is working on a bandsaw. A band saw is different enough that I could see SawStop pulling an, "Our table saw patent ran out today. It just so happens we have a bunch of patents ready to file for today to lock down safety tech for band saws. Anyone who wants to make a competing system you can't. If you do we will pursue legal action just like we did with table saws. You're welcome."

    Remember there are two different owners in that 20 year period. The creator until 2017 and now TTS (Festool). So a lot of the patent defending was by the previous owner.

Seth

 

[woodferret]

I know many people still use a circular saw without a track in situations where it can't be used with a track:

... video snipped ...

While I watch that video, can't help but think of all the Makita track "Love Marks" I've seen.  That very typical sweep towards the gonads is forever memorialized in the rail.

 

[mcfal12]

Today, SawStop posted a news release stating it will dedicate its key patent to the public on the effective date of a rule requiring safety technology on all table saws.

That seems pretty big to me

SawStop To Dedicate Key U.S. Patent To The Public Upon The Effective Date Of A Rule Requiring Safety Technology On All Table Saws

What doesn't make sense is why spend 20 years trying to ban competition to protect your patent then all of a sudden be open to making the patent public? This isn't the first time the CPSC has looked into requiring flesh saving technology in table saws. SawStop has been threatened by similar rulings a couple of times but why they chose now doesn't make sense. Maybe they have something up their sleeve for more patent lock downs on other products. They got their 20 years on table saws maybe they want their 20 on another product. There was a rumor recently that SawStop is working on a bandsaw. A band saw is different enough that I could see SawStop pulling an, "Our table saw patent ran out today. It just so happens we have a bunch of patents ready to file for today to lock down safety tech for band saws. Anyone who wants to make a competing system you can't. If you do we will pursue legal action just like we did with table saws. You're welcome."

    Remember there are two different owners in that 20 year period. The creator until 2017 and now TTS (Festool). So a lot of the patent defending was by the previous owner.

Seth

I'm not entirely aligned with you on this Seth. In r ecent filings/comments and testimony from Saw Stop they've reiterated many of the previous actions/behaviors/comments over the past 20 years. Not to mention they only agreed to open one of the patents. I'm not an expert but I know that single patent doesn't cover the entirety of the issue raised by competitors and the covered IP SS has sought to protect while also forcing adoption through the gov't.

Reading more about this over the weekend, PTI's latest public testimony is pretty awful too. Their rep seemed uniformed at best and deliberately evasive is much better description of my perception of them after reading the transcripts. The only thing Im 100% certain of is the end consumer is going to be left holding the bag no matter how this lands.

 

[semenza]

      Yeah, I'm no expert either. I was mainly pointing out that it has not been the same ownership entity. IOW not really the same "SawStop" company for the whole 20 years. And quite likely some of the reasoning behind the decisions is not the same. So it is more like a seven year comparison for the change of stance on the patent than twenty years.

    Ultimately TTS / SawStop will make decisions based on what they think is best for business within the frame work of regulations and laws. The direction of those decisions may stay the same or change rapidly depending on the business environment. I guess I am just saying that I don't think it is surprising since clearly something, in their view, has triggered the change in position.

  Seth

 

[peter halle]

For those who are speculating about other tools, I am pretty sure that I read way back when that the founder of Sawstop also devised similar technologies around other woodworking tools and patented those also.  What else would a savvy patent attorney do?  Please note that I am not criticizing - it was a sensible thing to do in my mind.

Peter

And on topic and mention of twenty years, let us not forget that patents are good for twenty years once granted.  So any patent that will be donated to the public domain will have already pretty much run its course so its value (if one was to sell a patent) has been diminishing annually. 

 

[mcfal12]

      Yeah, I'm no expert either. I was mainly pointing out that it has not been the same ownership entity. IOW not really the same "SawStop" company for the whole 20 years. And quite likely some of the reasoning behind the decisions is not the same. So it is more like a seven year comparison for the change of stance on the patent than twenty years.

    Ultimately TTS / SawStop will make decisions based on what they think is best for business within the frame work of regulations and laws. The direction of those decisions may stay the same or change rapidly depending on the business environment. I guess I am just saying that I don't think it is surprising since clearly something, in their view, has triggered the change in position.

  Seth

At the end of the day Gass was initially hoping that he could just license his patent to manufactures and not even have to get into the whole business model. But when they declined, he had no choice, but to become a manufacturer himself. I don’t have any problem with him, then looking to protect the IP, because not only did he develop it, but he spent a tremendous amount of money/sop spent a tremendous amount of money developing an actual working table saw.  That’s just good smart business to try to corner of the market.

Sauce that lost me when they tried to get a government agency to do their bidding and at the same time, treat the customers like idiots with these nonsensical public statements.

It’s pretty good though where we live in a country and not only can we debate this in public online forums, but companies are free to develop market and then enforce and protect their investments. Markets at their best as far as I’m concerned.

 

[Cheese]

1. At the end of the day Gass was initially hoping that he could just license his patent to manufactures and not even have to get into the whole business model. But when they declined, he had no choice, but to become a manufacturer himself. I don’t have any problem with him, then looking to protect the IP, because not only did he develop it, but he spent a tremendous amount of money/sop spent a tremendous amount of money developing an actual working table saw.  That’s just good smart business to try to corner of the market.

2. Sauce that lost me when they tried to get a government agency to do their bidding and at the same time, treat the customers like idiots with these nonsensical public statements.

3. t’s pretty good though where we live in a country and not only can we debate this in public online forums, but companies are free to develop market and then enforce and protect their investments. Markets at their best as far as I’m concerned.

1. The guy seems like a bright dude, he has some critical math skills...an Engineer and a Lawyer.  [smile] I'm all in.

2. Holding the government and saw manufacturers hostage by forcing them to accept his solution...the my way or the highway approach.  [mad] Sorry, I'm all out.  I like how his brain works but I don't like his business model. It's continually all about me...remind you of someone?

3. Agreed...is this a great country or what?  [big grin]