Converting an RTS400 to a DTS400

[wnagle]

Even though you can take the RTS or DTS apart and change pads,  the current models have different counter weights that reduce vibration.  So if you change them you won't get optimal anti vibration that was designed into the two sanders.  

I'm sure the new model will be interchangeable by design and this won't be an issue.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Even though you can take the RTS or DTS apart and change pads,  the current models have different counter weights that reduce vibration.  So if you change them you won't get optimal anti vibration that was designed into the two sanders.  

I checked each part of the two sanders on the parts diagram website. They are identical, except for the bottom plate of course. So I don't know where you get that idea about different counter weights.

 

[Wood_Junkie]

Even though you can take the RTS or DTS apart and change pads,  the current models have different counter weights that reduce vibration.  So if you change them you won't get optimal anti vibration that was designed into the two sanders.  

I checked each part of the two sanders on the parts diagram website. They are identical, except for the bottom plate of course. So I don't know where you get that idea about different counter weights.

They are different between the RS/DS 400 models and the RTS/DTS 400 models.  But they are the same within each model line.  That was one of the officially reported enhancements to the tool, by Festool, making the xTS improved over the RS/DS.

As Alex pointed out, and I did the same sleuthing (someone else posted it before.. I can't remember who), the parts lists are *identical*, every single part, from top to bottom, except for the plate and the pad.

What I could see Festool doing, in creating a unifiied orbital sander, is adding a sub-base plate.  This would be the part which attaches at the rubber boot and is secured by the clamping strap.  It would be a simple thing, then, to attach different plates and pads without compromising any rules about opening up a machine.  Just my two-cents.

 

[wnagle]

Alex,

It actually wasn't  my idea.  I'm really not that smart.  And maybe I re-stated it wrong but I was told by Festool that there are differences in the balancing system between the two and if interchanged you would not get optimal minimal vibration.  Maybe it's not the exact part, rather how it is designed, I'm not sure.  And even if they took the time to more fully explain it I may not totally understand it.  They just said the counterbalancing is different for each sander.  It was probqably my assumption that the actual weight was different.

That being said:  I suppose anyone is welcome to change their pad anyway.  However I thought I would relay the info from Festool as to why they aren't interchangeable.  Posibly some people wouldn't want to make the change having this knowledge.

No offense to you at all but if Festool tells me they are different in how they are balanced and shouldn't be interchanged, and you tell me they are the same...again no offense meant at all to you, but I think I'd rather rely on information directly from festool.  Others on here may too.  I suppose there are some who would deduce that Festool just told me that so they could sell two sanders instead of one, but I am not a conspiracy theorist, so I take them at there word.  And I suppose the person at Festool could have been mistaken but again I'd rather err on the safe side.

For me personally, at the moment it is a moot point, since I don't have either sander, I will wait until the new one comes out.  Even if I had both sanders I wouldn't try to interchange them.  I'd rather have both sanders since they aren't that expensive and I'd rather not have to deal with the hassle of making the changes back and forth.  (I have two band saws in my shop so I won't have to change blades as often)

Not to mention it may void the warranty even if I didn't screw something up taking it apart.

Just my take on the subject.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Could be the spinning brass counterweight is a different mass
for different pads but doesn't look different.

 

[wnagle]

Maybe it was Brian who told me...that could make the information suspect!!!  [embarassed]

 

[AlexThePalex]

No offense to you at all but if Festool tells me they are different in how they are balanced and shouldn't be interchanged, and you tell me they are the same...again no offense meant at all to you, but I think I'd rather rely on information directly from festool.  

Well, if somebody from Festool told you that then you interpreted it wrongly or he was simply wrong.

As far as I know, a part number is a part number. I checked the parts diagram and compared all part numbers from the DTS to those of the RTS. Except from the base plate and the sanding pad EVERY part number was the same. I checked very thoroughly.

But if you don't want to rely on my ability to check soemthing like that out (or wood_junkie's), fine, check it yourself.

I'll send you to the Dutch site for this because the American site list the 120 volt model for the RTS and the 230 volt model for the DTS, so they will be different of course and more difficult to check. But on the Dutch site you can see the 230 volt models of the DTS and RTS side by side.

DTS400 EQ 230v

RTS400 EQ 230v

Maybe you're not inclined to take Alex' word over that of Festool, but how about you take Festool's word over that of ........ Festool?  [huh]

Lemme know what you think.

 

[wnagle]

Alex,

Well it is possible that Festool told me that just keep my grubby little fingers out of the insieds of the sander for my own protection.  But just for the sake of discussion.  Suppose the part numbers were identical but attached differently in each model causing a different balance.  It wouldn't surprise me much if one part could be used in both sanders in just a slightly different way to get a different effect.  Maybe I should call Festool service and get a second opinion since they haven't chimed in yet. 

And just to clear things up about taking your word for it, You are the smartest person I know from the Netherlands.  Well your the only person I know from the netherlands but from my statistical perspective your still on top! [poke]

 

[Forrest Anderson]

Wayne

I think the problem is that the Festool Knowledgebase says:

Q: What are the differences between the new palm sanders: RTS400, DTS400 and ETS125; compared to the older models: RS400, DS400 and ES125?

A: The improvements made to the new palm sanders, ETS125, RTS400, DTS400 are mainly internal; you may not notice any difference in how they look. The counterweight has been reshaped to provide better balance and stability. The cooling fan housing is now made of metal and the new fan is less likely to come in contact with the housing. This lessens the tendency for the sander to hop around, and will result in fewer swirl marks. On the ETS125, the rubber pad brake now has holes around the periphery. This prevents vacuum lock when connected to a vacuum, which allows for better pad rotation, making the sander easier to move across the work piece. This will also results in fewer swirl marks. Some have felt that these new sanders are not as aggressive as the older models. What you are actually noticing is improved performance and less vibration due to the improvements.

You will hopefully now see why it might be thought that the story you relate about the counterbalance being different between the DTS and RTS is a corruption of the above statement by Festool which says that the counterweight is different between the DTS and the DS, and between the RTS and RS?

Forrest

 

[wnagle]

Forrest,

I was hoping you would respond to the subject.  I wasn't comparing and old model with a newer model, rather the triangular pad vs rectangular pad within the same model so to speak.  What I was told by Festool when I was at a training there, was that there is a difference between the RTS 400EQ and DTS 400EQ and that you shouldn't buy one and then change the pad out to the other due to differences in balancing.  I know others have done just that and haven't complained of feeling any difference.  So I'm not sure why they told us that in class.  Either I was given bad info or there is another explanation that we aren't seeing.  I don't doubt Alex in seeing the exact same part numbers but that isn't necessarily the complete answer.  

I put in a call to see if anyone knows the complete answer.   Hopefully they will have the time to enlighten us.

Edit:  These are the kinds of things one can do while stranded in a hotel out of town where one can't actually use his sanders! [doh]

 

[Forrest Anderson]

I was hoping you would respond to the subject.  I wasn't comparing and old model with a newer model, rather the triangular pad vs rectangular pad within the same model so to speak.  What I was told by Festool when I was at a training there, was that there is a difference between the RTS 400EQ and DTS 400EQ and that you shouldn't buy one and then change the pad out to the other due to differences in balancing.  I know others have done just that and haven't complained of feeling any difference.  So I'm not sure why they told us that in class.  Either I was given bad info or there is another explanation that we aren't seeing.  I don't doubt Alex in seeing the exact same part numbers but that isn't necessarily the complete answer. 

I put in a call to see if anyone knows the complete answer.   Hopefully they will have the time to enlighten us.

OK! Let us know what they say!

Personally, I think it would be great if Festool offered this type of sander as a kit with two easily interchangeable pads - you just clip on the pad you want for the job in hand, and off you go. Maybe the next generation of palm sanders will be like that...

Forrest

 

[wnagle]

Forrest,

I agree, having a dual head sander would be best.  The two models mentioned are 205.00 each here in the US, so neither is that bad.  The expense comes from buying ten boxes of sandpaper in rectangular and triangular in all the needed grits.  I have the Deltex right now so my plan was to get the rectangular pad sander next and be done with it,  but if festool comes out with a dual mode I'd lean more that direction and buy another assortment of sand paper.

 

[peter halle]

Wayne and others,

Sorry, I have been away from the computer for a while today.  Wayne heard the statement regarding the differences in the internal vibration dampening while we were at the Training class at the end of August.  So did I.  I am wondering if there is a possibility that the online parts diagram doesn't have the new part numbers.

Peter

 

[Wood_Junkie]

Oye, good discussion today!

I had hoped only to answer the *can* you do it question.  Yes, they can be swapped with relatively minor fuss and about $24 worth of parts (pad, plate, clamping strap).

Whether they should or not is a morale / warranty question. 
I look forward to anything our much-loved Festool staff can provide us regarding the mechanics.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Suppose the part numbers were identical but attached differently in each model causing a different balance.

So in how many ways can you attach something to a round object?

The anchor inside the sander is completely round, as anchors for a motor usually are. To run smooth it must also be completely symmetrical. Only the lowest part No.31 in the parts diagram called 'Cam' is asymmetric. But it's center attaches right in the middle of the anchor. I'm sorry but I find the theory of different ways to mount the parts far fetched. I also don't think it's needed. I took my DS400 apart some time ago, and if you feel the weight difference between the motor and the pad (is BIG) then you'll know that the weight difference between the square and the Delta pad are close to negligible compared to the motor housing.  I sincerely doubt it is needed to modify a heavy part that spins with 14000 RPM just to counter a couple of grams in weight shift.

Also, if, as you say the counterweight is somehow modified, it is still attached to the anchor so when it spins, the force will be applied in all directions equally. I don't see how a force that is applied equally in all directions still is able to encounter the effect of different pad shapes.

But I sure am curious to hear what a real Festool rep has to tell us about this. And then I hope not someone with sales related knowledge but with engineering knowledge. But I think you're susceptible to the theory Forrest mentioned, about the story in different counterweights between the old RS/DS models and the new RTS/DTS.

Btw, I'm sorry if the links I gave to the Dutch Festool side don't work all the time. Only last Saturday did they change to a new design. Things aren't running entirely stable yet.

 

[peter halle]

Respectfully to all posters,

As a member - and also a moderator - I think that it is unreasonable to expect that a manufacturer it going to give advice that could lead to an owner opening their manufactured product to make alterations - all which would void warranties and could depending on the complexity of the product - place the opener at risk based on their skills, etc.

Does Dewalt, Makita, BMW, Mercedes Benz, General Motors, Boeing, etc....? 

Just my thoughts,

Peter

 

[AlexThePalex]

Peter, if they mentioned this on the training day it's hardly a secret, is it?

People, like me, who have their mind set on being able to use the xTS with both pads aren't deterred anyway by a vague story about counterweights not being the same while the parts diagrams list no differences.

A detailed explanation from Festool could only deter people from making the switch, not encourage them.

 

[wnagle]

Peter,

I agree as I stated earlier that it's entirely possible that Festool told us that so they weren't sanctioning us to open up the sander.  And that would make sense as well.  But that really didn't seem like the case at the time.  Seems like they really meant there was a difference.  My conclusion is still the same.  Either there is a real reason that we don't yet understand or we were given faulty info.  As for Forrest's theory, it makes sense as a possible explanation, but when we asked the question we were specifically talking about the two newest units I mentioned earlier.

Alex,

Everything you say makes total sense and your description of the part number is correct.  However, I'll give you an example of a single part that is used in two different ways.  

On the Trion, the part number for the circle cutter on the Trion ps 200 and ps 300 is the same.  However, when you use it correctly on the 200 you use one hole to attach it and it works correctly.  When you use it on the 300 you use a different hole to attach it and it works correctly.  If you use the wrong hole it doesn't work properly and you get poor out of square cuts and bent blades.  But it is the identical part on both units...just attached differently for a different effect on two similar saws.  

It's just a possibility which could explain the same part getting a different effect on two different sanders.  Also the manual online may be incorrect for some reason.  I really don't know the answer.  You could very possibly be correct and they are identical and interchangeable in every way.  I'm just not totally convinced since I was told different by Festool in Indiana at their headquarters.  And I wasn't talking with a sales staff...  but he wasn't an engineer either.   We'll see what they have to say when they call me back.  I will also ask them if it voids the warranty for sure or not.  Shane is being awfully quiet on this one eh?

 

[Guy Ashley]

I heard from a Festool rep a couple weeks ago that the two are becoming one machine with interchangeable pads...which makes a lot of sense.  I guess we will see if it comes true or not...

Best,
Todd

Forrest

The above quote is what I picked up on. I haven't attributed anything to you.

Regards

Guy

 

[Forrest Anderson]

I heard from a Festool rep a couple weeks ago that the two are becoming one machine with interchangeable pads...which makes a lot of sense.  I guess we will see if it comes true or not...

The above quote is what I picked up on. I haven't attributed anything to you.

Thanks for the link! I'd forgotten about that post from last year, and hope that it's true! I'll keep my eyes open for any news about it...

Forrest