Corded or cordless track saw?

mino said:
Coen said:
All 3100 mAh 18650's are relatively low-power in the continuous discharge department. Simple function of the tradeoff between capacity and max. current.
TLDR:
Oh, if only it was that "simple".

It is that simple. There are no 3100 mAh 18650 that offer anywhere near the discharge rates the 2600 mAh ones do. At high discharge rates the 3100 will also waste more on internal losses, making the nett usuable power you can extract from it at a high drain rate (near) equal or even below.

You also put too much emphasis on pack weight in the overheating characteristic. The higher internal resistance of 3100 mAh 18650's will cause more heat to be generated when emptied. So it at a low rate and this will not be a real factor. Do it at a high rate and they will suffer in capacity. So the packs with high-density cells are only really good for long duration low-drain applications, like battery lights. On any low-drain hand tool the size and weight is just a big downside, for high-drain they won't deliver anyway.
 
mino said:
Cheese said:
mino said:
The 4.0 is a 5.2 of the 21700 range. I very much expect FT to come with 10.0 packs down the line a few years later which will take the place of the 6.2s of today. I.e. the top-of-available-tech pack.
Isn't that what the new 8.0 batteries are supposed to do?
The 8.0 will use 4.0 cells which are the mainstream in the 21700 world today. Likely lower discharge rate ones than the 4.0 HP uses. So should be even cheaper to make.

The energy density of the 3.1 Ah cells in the 6.2 pack is already about 15% higher (per cell volume/weight) compared to the 4.0 21700 cells. Would not surprise me if the 6.2 packs cost more to make than the new 8.0 ones.

By down the line I meant "when the tech will allow a 10.0 Ah in a 10-pack". These days top-of-the-line 21700 cells give you about 4.5Ah. That is just 9.0 for a 10-cell pack like the 8.0 uses. Too little a difference to make sense adding an SKU.

I think Festool will just sit on the 4.0/8.0 setup for a couple yrs and go 10.0 as the premium option once the tech allows it.

There aren't that many flavors of 21700's around. Most other power tool producers claim extra power for their 8.0 packs... so they probably just use the same. Bosch has a double row 5.5 Ah battery with 21700's that is said to actually sag less than the 8.0. My suspicion is they use the Samsung NCR21700-30T instead of the 40T in that one, but I haven't taken one apart (yet).
 
I have the ts55, ts55k and hkc. I use the Hkc the most by far and the ts55k second. It’s a really good saw for cordless. The only really annoyance is the difference in blades from the ts55 to the K version. I’ll probably sell the old ts55 and replace it with the newer corded version for working in the shop as when I’m working in a shop environment the cords are not an issue. On site it’s cordless all the way

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Coen said:
It is that simple. There are no 3100 mAh 18650 that offer anywhere near the discharge rates the 2600 mAh ones do. At high discharge rates the 3100 will also waste more on internal losses, making the nett usuable power you can extract from it at a high drain rate (near) equal or even below.

You also put too much emphasis on pack weight in the overheating characteristic. The higher internal resistance of 3100 mAh 18650's will cause more heat to be generated when emptied. So it at a low rate and this will not be a real factor. Do it at a high rate and they will suffer in capacity. So the packs with high-density cells are only really good for long duration low-drain applications, like battery lights. On any low-drain hand tool the size and weight is just a big downside, for high-drain they won't deliver anyway.
Sorry, but you are making generalized statements of fact without having even the anecdotal evidence to back them up. Yet you refer specific products.

I hate to be smug like this, but it is possibly warranted: Attempting to prove a negative is a very common mistake people fall for. There is a very good reason one of the first things pushed into a sciences student is that to disprove a negative it is sufficient to find just one scenario/object which does not align with a statement. This is why proving a negative is so difficult in logic, almost impossible outside mathematics, and disproving it is so easy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)#Proving_a_negative

I have merely pointed that there is nothing preventing FT to make the 6.2 packs be better than the 5.2 ones, or better than anyone else's on the market. It is a pure question of money, how much they are willing to pay. Also, such was also anecdotally confirmed on this same forum a couple yrs back.

Secondly that Festool would have to try hard to botch up the 5.2 pack for it to be weaker than the 4.0 HP packs. They would per same have to *knowingly* screw customes with the 6.2. While the anecdotal evidence mentioned above is to the contrary - the 6.2 pack being observed stronger than the 5.2 ones. Elbeit that is with a sample of a few, while it naturally does not hard-refute your conjecture it puts it in serious jeopardy.

Or, please provide factual evidence from controlled measurements to back youl statements. So far you presented only conjecture which was used to indirectly slander FT here. Effectively accusing FT as trying to "screw" customers with their, at peresent, most expensive pack.

There is a world of difference between "I suspect" and "I know".

All I know is this:
- all things being equal, my 5.2 packs provide more power under heavy load, than the 4.0 HP ones
- it is very much possible for Festool to make the 6.2 packs even stronger to the 5.2 ones, their price and anecdotal evidence even suggests so

I then proceeded to back up this observation by a theoretical calculation.

Overall, I stand by my recommendation that for a pro user, the 4.0 HP set a bad choice for TSC 55 and marginal for TSC 55 K.
For a hobby user, who can get by with a single 4.0 HP set for all his tools, the calculus may be different.
 
Not to make this even more confusing but don't forget the TS60 will eventually be coming to the US market. My guess is sometime this year. The TS60 gives you a more powerful motor, deeper cut, and compatibility with the HKC rail system.
 
TomK_2 said:
Not to make this even more confusing but don't forget the TS60 will eventually be coming to the US market. My guess is sometime this year. The TS60 gives you a more powerful motor, deeper cut, and compatibility with the HKC rail system.
Ya is this happening? Sort of unclear if the ks60 and kapex cordless saw will come or not

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Bencan said:
I have the ts55, ts55k and hkc. I use the Hkc the most by far and the ts55k second. It’s a really good saw for cordless. The only really annoyance is the difference in blades from the ts55 to the K version. I’ll probably sell the old ts55 and replace it with the newer corded version for working in the shop as when I’m working in a shop environment the cords are not an issue. On site it’s cordless all the way

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hi, i bought this before the the f series saw was out and now my ts55 runs any thin kerf blade,btw the tenryu blade is great for sheet goods. .063=1.6mm
 

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TomK_2 said:
Not to make this even more confusing but don't forget the TS60 will eventually be coming to the US market. My guess is sometime this year. The TS60 gives you a more powerful motor, deeper cut, and compatibility with the HKC rail system.

I would sure like to see some confirmation on this.
It seems that there are never announcements until the official time. Even when something slips, there is no confirmation.
I don't really get why though? A simple, "yes, but not for a few months" (or whatever)
 
guybo said:
Bencan said:
I have the ts55, ts55k and hkc. I use the Hkc the most by far and the ts55k second. It’s a really good saw for cordless. The only really annoyance is the difference in blades from the ts55 to the K version. I’ll probably sell the old ts55 and replace it with the newer corded version for working in the shop as when I’m working in a shop environment the cords are not an issue. On site it’s cordless all the way

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hi, i bought this before the the f series saw was out and now my ts55 runs any thin kerf blade,btw the tenryu blade is great for sheet goods. .063=1.6mm
Interesting, I think that would make ripping sheet goods easier but that still doesn’t match up with the K blade thickness of 1.8mm. The whole thing is a pain, I’ve temporarily retired the corded version so I stop wrecking the strips on my tracks lol

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Hi, when I first got my ts55eq the blade kerf was2.4 then the 2.2 was added to the mix with no rivi ng knife change.btw the original rivining knife for the ts55eq measured at 1.81 to1.83
 
Crazyraceguy said:
TomK_2 said:
Not to make this even more confusing but don't forget the TS60 will eventually be coming to the US market. My guess is sometime this year. The TS60 gives you a more powerful motor, deeper cut, and compatibility with the HKC rail system.

I would sure like to see some confirmation on this.
It seems that there are never announcements until the official time. Even when something slips, there is no confirmation.
I don't really get why though? A simple, "yes, but not for a few months" (or whatever)

The TS 55 FEQ showed up on EKAT about 6 months prior to its release here. I just checked EKAT and do not yet see it in the US catalog.
 
TomK_2 said:
The TS 55 FEQ showed up on EKAT about 6 months prior to its release here. I just checked EKAT and do not yet see it in the US catalog.
There is no 110/120V version out at all.

The TS 60 is the first "big" brushless motor by Festool. It is quite likely they will not make a low voltage version until after they are sufficiently happy with their (new) manufacturing process.

Speculating, but it may also be that the whole saw is optimised to the bone at 230V and a 110V/120V motor would not fit the housing etc. etc.

Either way would not count on a low voltage version showing up anytime soon. 2 yrs, if it comes at all. More likely they will make a TSC 60 and try to cover the US market with it instead. The new 8.0 packs would be a great fit for that.

For shop use, the TS 55 F is IMO still the saw to get. It is light and powerfull-enough as a daily driver.
 
mino said:
TomK_2 said:
The TS 55 FEQ showed up on EKAT about 6 months prior to its release here. I just checked EKAT and do not yet see it in the US catalog.
There is no 110/120V version out at all.

The TS 60 is the first "big" brushless motor by Festool. It is quite likely they will not make a low voltage version until after they are sufficiently happy with their (new) manufacturing process.

Speculating, but it may also be that the whole saw is optimised to the bone at 230V and a 110V/120V motor would not fit the housing etc. etc.

Either way would not count on a low voltage version showing up anytime soon. 2 yrs, if it comes at all. More likely they will make a TSC 60 and try to cover the US market with it instead. The new 8.0 packs would be a great fit for that.

For shop use, the TS 55 F is IMO still the saw to get. It is light and powerfull-enough as a daily driver.

Agreed totally. In a cabinet shop, where most of the usage is on sheet goods, the TS 55 does a fine job.
Going to the cordless version would make it easy to bring the TS 60 to the US. The only difference is in the charger.
 
mino said:
Coen said:
It is that simple. There are no 3100 mAh 18650 that offer anywhere near the discharge rates the 2600 mAh ones do. At high discharge rates the 3100 will also waste more on internal losses, making the nett usuable power you can extract from it at a high drain rate (near) equal or even below.

You also put too much emphasis on pack weight in the overheating characteristic. The higher internal resistance of 3100 mAh 18650's will cause more heat to be generated when emptied. So it at a low rate and this will not be a real factor. Do it at a high rate and they will suffer in capacity. So the packs with high-density cells are only really good for long duration low-drain applications, like battery lights. On any low-drain hand tool the size and weight is just a big downside, for high-drain they won't deliver anyway.
Sorry, but you are making generalized statements of fact without having even the anecdotal evidence to back them up. Yet you refer specific products.

I hate to be smug like this, but it is possibly warranted: Attempting to prove a negative is a very common mistake people fall for. There is a very good reason one of the first things pushed into a sciences student is that to disprove a negative it is sufficient to find just one scenario/object which does not align with a statement. This is why proving a negative is so difficult in logic, almost impossible outside mathematics, and disproving it is so easy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)#Proving_a_negative

I have merely pointed that there is nothing preventing FT to make the 6.2 packs be better than the 5.2 ones, or better than anyone else's on the market. It is a pure question of money, how much they are willing to pay. Also, such was also anecdotally confirmed on this same forum a couple yrs back.

Secondly that Festool would have to try hard to botch up the 5.2 pack for it to be weaker than the 4.0 HP packs. They would per same have to *knowingly* screw customes with the 6.2. While the anecdotal evidence mentioned above is to the contrary - the 6.2 pack being observed stronger than the 5.2 ones. Elbeit that is with a sample of a few, while it naturally does not hard-refute your conjecture it puts it in serious jeopardy.

Or, please provide factual evidence from controlled measurements to back youl statements. So far you presented only conjecture which was used to indirectly slander FT here. Effectively accusing FT as trying to "screw" customers with their, at peresent, most expensive pack.

There is a world of difference between "I suspect" and "I know".

All I know is this:
- all things being equal, my 5.2 packs provide more power under heavy load, than the 4.0 HP ones
- it is very much possible for Festool to make the 6.2 packs even stronger to the 5.2 ones, their price and anecdotal evidence even suggests so

I then proceeded to back up this observation by a theoretical calculation.

Overall, I stand by my recommendation that for a pro user, the 4.0 HP set a bad choice for TSC 55 and marginal for TSC 55 K.
For a hobby user, who can get by with a single 4.0 HP set for all his tools, the calculus may be different.

I didn't slander anyone. Festool itself has all kinds of wonderful claims on the 4.0 HPC;
Although the exact wording of 'cells' vs 'battery pack' is rather ambiguous, the picture they paint (while comparing to a 5.2) is that of "30% increased power delivery" / "30% increased service life" / "lower weight" / "no compromise".
This would also be equal to other brands, where the 4.0 does not underperform to the 5.2. Festool was late to the 21700 party anyway, but you already knew that.

I did find a tear down of a 3.1Ah (single row) 18V Festool battery that was using Sony Murata US18650VTC6 cells. Those come with a very complete data sheet (unlike anything Samsung provides), but there is one graph in particular that you might not like; at 15A discharge... the capacity drops below 2600 after ~50 cycles.
Or the thermal graph; even at just 10A discharge in a 23 degrees (C, of course) environment it will reach 60 degrees. The line for 20A discharge ends at 90 degrees. Now... a Festool CTLC is rated for "16-30" minutes with a pair of 5.2 batteries. Let's take that at face value; that is 39A, divided over two batteries, leaves 19.5A per battery. Or 9.75A per 3100 mAh cell (they are really rated 3000, but ok).

I don't know if Festool did anything special for heatsinking the cells. From the looks of the 3.1 they didn't. I know Bosch didn't do that either for their 5.2s, but the Bosch 4.0 (and 8.)(with 21700s) has the cells in a tight fitting high density shell // "heatsink" that transmits the heat generated in the cells quite well to the outside. That better cooling allows them to be emptied in 14 minutes without shutting down the tools.

If you compare to the 2600 from the same series, the US18650VTC5A you can see that that one isn't so prone to overheating, completing a 20A discharge at just above 40 degrees, while the 3000 cell keeps on going past 55 degrees in the test;https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Sony US18650VTC6 3000mAh (Green) UK.htmlhttps://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Sony US18650VTC5A 2600mAh (Green)%20UK.html

I don't know what cells Festool uses in either their 5.2 or their 6.2, but like most companies... they probably sell them with a variety of cells that "fit the requirements" but are actually not 100% the same.
 
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