Cordless blades flexing/warping.

[Lbob131]

Have  used  my  cordless  Metabo circular saw with  the  festool  rail in  the  past  to  cut  plywood  and the  results  were    abysmal.  To say  the least.
Blade  flexing  all  over  the place.
Guy  on  site  all  week  with a  Dewalt cordless  track  saw  cutting  plywood  and  most  sheets  were  left  with  curve  in  the  cut.

Fortuanetly  my  corded  TS55  was  on hand  which  left  a  perfect  cut.
He  was  baffled  as to  how  his  saw  was  making  bad  cuts.  I even  adjusted  the  rollers  to  take  up  the slack  on  the  rail  for  him.
Didn't  make the slightest  bit  of  difference.

Then it dawned  on me  only  today  what  the real problem  is.

Is  their  any  point  to  cordless  track  saws  with  these  super  thin  blades  when  they  perform  so badly?
Perhaps  Mafell  has  cracked  this  issue?
How  are  Festool  cordless  track  saws  performing  I  wonder?

 

[Michael Kellough]

With thin blades toe adjustment (making the blade parallel to the track) is even more important.

 

[Mike Goetzke]

Strange - I've been using saws on the rail with thin kerf blades for over 20 years and have never noticed a curve to my cut. I can get non-square cut if I let the blade get dull. Think there may be an issue with sloppy bearings in the saws that had issues?

 

[Lbob131]

Nothing  to  do  with sloppy bearings.
Thin kerf blades  are  the problem.

I expect  if  you  are  not  having  issues  then  you  don't  cut  a lot  of plywood  or precision  accuracy  is  not  what you require.

We  sliced  up  2400kg  of  8 x 4  12mm  plywood  this  week  and  barely a  sheet  ended  up straight  from  the dewalt.
Thats  140  sheets.
And  another  400  sheets  in  the workshop  ready  for  processing  in  the next  few  weeks.

The  guy  was  hailing  the  De walt  saw  and  the De walt  range  in general  as  the best  woodworking  power tools  in  the business. 
We  were  having a  good  ole  laugh  all week.
Especially  as  I had  to  straighten  out his  cuts  until  he  finally gave  up  and  had  to use  the 
corded  Festool.

The  guy was  checking  his  rail  against  mine  for  straightness.
He  was  blaming  the  plywood  not  laying  flat  at  one  stage.
All  week  he  was  scratching  his  head.

Then  it  dawned  on  me  only  yesterday  morning.
As  I had  previously  had  the same  problem  with a metabo  fitted  with a thin  blade.

 

[pixelated]

That hasn’t been my experience, my track saw is an HK-55, which uses 1.8 mm kerf blades, it has no problem cutting a strip 1/16” wide off the edge of a board, or straight cuts in general.

You might try repositioning the blade on the arbor, or check the other “tuning” factors mentioned.

 

[Cheese]

I've not had any issues using a TS 55, TSC 55, HKC 55 and a MT 55 cutting 18 mm maple ply and ripping 4/4 & 5/4 solid maple boards.

The TS & TSC both use 2.2 mm wide kerf blades so even though the TSC is cordless, the blade performs as well as the corded version.

The HKC & MT 55 both use 1.8 mm wide kerf blades, one from Festool and one from Mafell. No issues at all with either blade/saw.

Have you tried clamping the rail at both ends to see if that's part of the issue?

With the amount of wood you're cutting maybe some sawdust is accumulating under the rail strips and the rails can move slightly if not clamped down. I know first hand that that's an issue with Mafell rails.  [sad]

 

[demographic]

Ive done cuts on 90mm square oak beams using my HKC and crosscut rail,  50mm deep cut one way then mark round with a square and then a 50mm deep cut from the other side to cut all the way through.
Pretty much spot on every time I did them which shows the cut is nice and straight.
Thats using a thin (1.8mm) blade.

If you're getting a measurable slant on a sheet of ply I suspect the saw has other issues.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Thin kerf blades are not the problem.

I've been using a Mafell MT-55 for years now using the 1.8mm blades Mafell supplies and never had an issue with the blades flexing/warping. This includes using the MT-55 for glue-line ripping 2"+ thick Hard Maple, dead-straight. Also producing cabinets (mostly veneered baltic birch), never had an issue.

Some data points not supplied by the OP are:
-- Were the blades sharp?
-- What brand blades?
-- Feed rate?
-- Appropriate blades being used for the task at hand?
-- Which Metabo saw are you using? One of the cordless Metabo saws has been discussed extensively on the Mafell forum, I haven't read the entire conversation but my memory is that the saw being discussed is more of a framing saw, and did not perform well on the track.

I'd suggest buying a fresh batch of blades and see if they perform any better. If the issue persists, the machine is not properly dialed-in (not just snugged to the track), the machine is not suited for the work being asked, or it's user error, or some combination of the above...

 

[Lbob131]

Thin kerf  blades  are the problem..

My corded  Festool  TS55  blade  has a  cutting  width (kerf)  of  2.2mm.
The  blade  width  is  1.7mm.

My Metabo  KS18 LTX 57  is using a Trend  blade  with  a  cutting  width  of  1.7mm.
And  a blade  width  of  1.1mm.
That  is  clearly  the problem.

I don't know  the blade widths  of  my  work colleagues  Dewalt saw  but  I expect  its  similar  to  my  Metabo.

Festool  sell  the  Wood Universal blade  suitable  for  the TSC (2055551)  witha  cutting  width  of  1.8mm (kerf)  and  blade  width  of  1.2mm.

The  496302  is  2.2mm  cutting width. (kerf)
Blade  width  is  not specified.

Unless  the  blade  width  (not  kerf)  is  1.7mm  then  cordless  is  a non  starter  IMO.

 

[Michael Kellough]

A thin blade per se is not the problem, but the condition of the blade and the saw are more critical since the blade can flex if the teeth on one side are not as sharp or if the toe is not set correctly. Even the 2.2mm kerf blades flex some when the toe is off or the teeth are chipped on one side.

A good sharp thin blade tracking correctly is a significant benefit to a cordless saw.

It’s not too surprising that lower quality saws might have issues running thin blades since they probably don’t take time at the factory to get the toe adjustment perfect and they probably include lower quality blades.

 

[Lbob131]

I have  no  issues  with  my  20  year  old  Festool  TS55  plunge  saw  at  all.

My  Metabo  and  my  work colleagues  De Walt  have  no  easy adjustment  for  toe  in  or  out.
I expect  that  is  factory  set.
The  kerfs  are  thin,  the  blades  are  thinner  still  and  that  is  the  problem.
And  with  constant non  stop sawing,  the blade  warming  causes  even  more  blade  warping  issues  on  these  super  thin blades.

I  have  seen  nothing  on  the  UK  Festool  website  showing  that  1.7mm  blade  thickness (not kerf)  are  available  for  cordless  festool plunge  saws.

On  the  UK  website.https://www.festool.co.uk/accessory/496301---160x2,2x20-pw12#Overview

No  "blade  width"  specification  is  given  for saw  blades  with "cutting  widths"  of  2.2mm.
Am I  to assume  it  is  1.7mm?
The  same  as  my  current  TS55  blade?

On  the  issue  of feed  rate.  With  my  ts55,  I'd  say  about 3  seconds  to  cross  1.3m x 12mm thick plywood.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

I have  no  issues  with  my  20  year  old  Festool  TS55  plunge  saw  at  all.

My  Metabo  and  my  work colleagues  De Walt  have  no  easy adjustment  for  toe  in  or  out.
The  kerfs  are  thin,  the  blades  are  thinner  still  and  that  is  the  problem.
And  with  constant non  stop sawing,  the blade  warming  causes  even  more  blade  warping  issues  on  these  super  thin blades.

I  have  seen  nothing  on  the  UK  Festool  website  showing  that  1.7mm  blade  thickness (not kerf)  are  available  for  cordless  festool plunge  saws.

Your personal experience does not constitute a global fact. A more accurate statement would be "I am experiencing problems with the thin blades I'm using", as it reflects your experience. The fact of the matter is, there are multitudes of professional tradespeople putting out amazing work using 1.8mm blades, so your assertion that "thin kerf blades are the problem" is, on its face, obviously false.

 

[Lbob131]

I have  no  issues  with  my  20  year  old  Festool  TS55  plunge  saw  at  all.

My  Metabo  and  my  work colleagues  De Walt  have  no  easy adjustment  for  toe  in  or  out.
The  kerfs  are  thin,  the  blades  are  thinner  still  and  that  is  the  problem.
And  with  constant non  stop sawing,  the blade  warming  causes  even  more  blade  warping  issues  on  these  super  thin blades.

I  have  seen  nothing  on  the  UK  Festool  website  showing  that  1.7mm  blade  thickness (not kerf)  are  available  for  cordless  festool plunge  saws.

Your personal experience does not constitute a global fact. A more accurate statement would be "I am experiencing problems with the thin blades I'm using", as it reflects your experience. The fact of the matter is, there are multitudes of professional tradespeople putting out amazing work using 1.8mm blades, so your assertion that "thin kerf blades are the problem" is, on its face, obviously false.

I can  do  amazing  work  with  thin  kerf blades  also.  But at a snails  pace.
So my assertion  is  correct  imo.
Try  slicing    150  12mm  sheets  of  plywood  a day  and  cordless  saws  with  their  thin  blades  are  absolute  rubbish.
Snails  pace  and  building  sites  are  not  compatible.
Now  if a  1.7mm  (blade  thickness)  can  be  fitted,  then it might  be  a whole  different  story.
Yes  thats  my experience  and  my  work colleague's  experience  also. As  he  found  out  this  week.

 

[FestitaMakool]

^400mm a second sounds fast. My experience with thin kerf Makita circular saw goes back to 2008. I’ve never experienced bad cuts except when pushing to hard and fast. And I almost never do that, so my cuts have been fine even with just a clamped edge to ride the saw along.

What every woodworker and carpenter have told me about getting nice quality cuts whether it’s with a manual saw or a motorised one: “Never push the saw, let the saw do the job!” “Want to go fast as possible? Get the handsaw or blade sharpened to the max, and/or buy a larger more powerful motorised saw”

At least half your speed and see what that gets you.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I can  do  amazing  work  with  thin  kerf blades  also.  But at a snails  pace.
So my assertion  is  correct  imo.
Try  slicing    150  12mm  sheets  of  plywood  a day  and  cordless  saws  with  their  thin  blades  are  absolute  rubbish.
Snails  pace  and  building  sites  are  not  compatible.
Now  if a  1.7mm  (blade  thickness)  can  be  fitted,  then it might  be  a whole  different  story.
Yes  thats  my experience  and  my  work colleague's  experience  also. As  he  found  out  this  week.

It's just my opinion, but 150 sheets a day seems like more than the intended use of a cordless saw in the first place, even at only one cut per sheet. That is corded tool territory and still pushing that pretty hard. That's just the saw itself, the blade is taking that too.

 

[Vondawg]

“It's just my opinion, but 150 sheets a day seems like more than the intended use of a cordless saw in the first place, even at only one cut per sheet. “

^ This^

 

[Cheese]

Now  if a  1.7mm  (blade  thickness)  can  be  fitted,  then it might  be  a whole  different  story.

Unfortunately, that's not really the solution either. The saws designed to run thin kerf (1.8 mm kerf & 1.3 mm plate) blades were designed around the thin kerf blade specifically to give them additional power and extended battery run time. If you just throw a regular kerf blade on those saws, the cutting will be slower and the battery run time will be shorter.

For instance, the original Festool TSC 55 with a regular kerf (2.2 mm kerf & 1.7 mm plate) blade when compared to the new Festool TSC 55 K version with the thin kerf blade, takes a longer time to cut and reduces the run time of the batteries. Thus, the reason Festool switched over to thin kerf blades for the new TSC. More power...more run time.

[attachimg=1]

 

[yetihunter]

One cut with the KS 18 LTX 57 and then I threw it in the garbage.  I’ve never seen an arbor wobble so much.  I’m not alone.  Do a look-see on another certain forum for a brand that uses Metabo batteries and a track system that Bosch shares.  We discussed how horrible of a product the Metabo saw is.  It can’t cut straight to save it’s life.  As for the Dewalt, I can’t speak on it.  Ridge Carbide makes a couple of $110 blades for it that have a thick plate, kerf and more carbide than you could dream of.  You mentioned Trend blades so I’m presuming you’re either in the UK or whereabouts?  I just ordered what appears to be Leitz blades (Mafell/Festool OEM) branded as Bayerwald.  Dewalt tracksaw is 165x20, correct? They have a 24, 36 and 48.  May be worth checking out? 

Devils advocate: If you’re familiar with Bosch Expert thin kerf blades from Italy, imagine the amount of steel and carbide removed to get them sold here as Diablo for $6 a pop.  They bend by blowing on them.  Never heard of someone having an issue. I used to think the Diablos were ridiculously thin but then I met Makita.  Here they sell what I thought was the thinnest circular saw blade Id seen.  However,  in Japan, many brands offer  1.0 kerf blades for their 125mm circular saws.  It’s insane. I’ve not used them enough to comment. Anyway, I was on the thicker plate bandwagon (was super anti thin kerf), and yes, the plates on the Mafell (and the HK)  are not at all unsubstantial for their kerf.  But, at the same time, I’ve been using the cheapies (Diablo) at work and I’ve noted that the results go against my prejudice.

For the Dewalt, try some thicker blades, who knows?  For the Metabo, you have at least one person on the inter webs  telling you that on their own  specific unit…it was the saws fault. 

 

[Fredbear]

Theres an old saying, “let the saw do the work” which I would apply to the thin kerf blades/cordless saws. Never had a problem with mine unless they’ve been used by someone else on site who has used them either freehand or with too much force.
IMHO , cordless doesn’t replace corded but can be more convenient and can achieve very good results if appropriate care is taken

 

[Coen]

Now  if a  1.7mm  (blade  thickness)  can  be  fitted,  then it might  be  a whole  different  story.

Unfortunately, that's not really the solution either. The saws designed to run thin kerf (1.8 mm kerf & 1.3 mm plate) blades were designed around the thin kerf blade specifically to give them additional power and extended battery run time. If you just throw a regular kerf blade on those saws, the cutting will be slower and the battery run time will be shorter.

For instance, the original Festool TSC 55 with a regular kerf (2.2 mm kerf & 1.7 mm plate) blade when compared to the new Festool TSC 55 K version with the thin kerf blade, takes a longer time to cut and reduces the run time of the batteries. Thus, the reason Festool switched over to thin kerf blades for the new TSC. More power...more run time.

[attachimg=1]

Well, is that why 4-year old used TS 55 R's without blade are locally selling for 75% of the price of a new TS 55 F with blade? Maybe there are more people that don't like the thin blades.

And Festool deciding to apply the same thin blades to the mains-powered saws... they could have easily opted for a stronger motor there. Or a more efficient one maybe.

I still don't understand how slightly changed teeth and a 20% thinner blade results in 100% faster cuts. If you ask me... some cut quality was sacrificed. But that's my gut feeling, have not seen actual real-world comparisons.