Cost of use comparison of CT vacuum sizes

[JonathanJung]

Keep it on topic? I'm not quite sure how the conversation went from my question to talking about insert tooling, but anyway.

2 CT15s cost almost the same as 1 CT26. What I was asking is, if the CT15 works fine, why get the single CT26? Someone on a thread listed out the cost of bags by volume, did a comparison, to explain that x number of bags purchased in one CT size would provide x amount of savings over buying the same volume in bags from another CT size.

I'd rather have 6 CT15s hanging around my 2600sqft shop than 3 CT26s. Unless the CT26s provided significant performance difference or savings over time.

 

[flair woodworks]

[member=67785]JonathanJung[/member] Speaking from personal experience, rather than data, I find my CT 26 (~2013 model) performs better than my CT Midi (~2018 model). For tools that need maximum suction, I prefer to use the CT 26. For anything else, either is fine. Also, after having relied on the CT 26 solely for years, the CT Midi fills up awfully quickly.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
I'd rather have 6 CT15s hanging around my 2600sqft shop than 3 CT26s. Unless the CT26s provided significant performance difference or savings over time.

From a performance perspective, the only reason not to get a CT15 is that you need (or will need) BT, remote switch and/or other accessory features that can't be added to the CT15. I sold my CT26 a few years back, and got a CT15 last year. I have seen no difference in how they met my dust extraction needs.

It's still much cheaper to replace the hose with an anti-static hose, if needed (not in my case) since all other CTs are twice in price or more. And heck, the CT26 doesn't even have the blower function.

If I were really concerned about consumable costs, I'd use the CT15 with a Dust Deputy, as I did with the previous CT26 (I never needed to replace a bag after two years of ownership of the CT26):

[attachimg=1]

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

[member=67785]JonathanJung[/member] I'd suggest you're not supplying enough information for anybody to give you an informed response.

What are you using the vacs for? Are you extracting planer/router chips, or fine sanding dust? Are you primarily using a 27mm, 36mm, or 50mm hose? Does the vac sit in one place or does it get tugged around during the course of a machining operation? Are you only extracting wood chips/dust, or are you also collecting cementitious debris? Are you working alone or do you have employees?

The cost/bag as it relates to machine cost should not be relevant to your business.

 

[Chainring]

I believe new CT 36 AC vacs now come with a HEPA filter (same as the CT 48 AC) instead of the 1 micron filter it originally was sold with.

Correct. Sometime after the 48 AC was introduced its HEPA filter made it to the 36 AC.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Keep it on topic? I'm not quite sure how the conversation went from my question to talking about insert tooling, but anyway.

2 CT15s cost almost the same as 1 CT26. What I was asking is, if the CT15 works fine, why get the single CT26? Someone on a thread listed out the cost of bags by volume, did a comparison, to explain that x number of bags purchased in one CT size would provide x amount of savings over buying the same volume in bags from another CT size.

I'd rather have 6 CT15s hanging around my 2600sqft shop than 3 CT26s. Unless the CT26s provided significant performance difference or savings over time.

........and that's why your topic expanded into insert tooling, sawblade resharpening and alternative consumables to OEM.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Snip.
I'd rather have 6 CT15s hanging around my 2600sqft shop than 3 CT26s. Unless the CT26s provided significant performance difference or savings over time.

From a performance perspective, the only reason not to get a CT15 is that you need (or will need) BT, remote switch and/or other accessory features that can't be added to the CT15. I sold my CT26 a few years back, and got a CT15 last year. I have seen no difference in how they met my dust extraction needs.

It's still much cheaper to replace the hose with an anti-static hose, if needed (not in my case) since all other CTs are twice in price or more. And heck, the CT26 doesn't even have the blower function.

If I were really concerned about consumable costs, I'd use the CT15 with a Dust Deputy, as I did with the previous CT26 (I never needed to replace a bag after two years of ownership of the CT26):

[attachimg=1]

If it takes 2 years to fill the bag, does it matter what that new bag actually costs? The only reason would be to gauge how many it took to pay for the Dust Deputy.
But, you're right, if all you need it tool-triggered suction, the CT-15 is fine.

 

[ChuckM]

Because of the DD, I didn't need to replace any bag during the two years of ownership. 95%(98%?) +of the dust went to the bin instead of the bag. I dumped the content of the bin regularly.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Because of the DD, I didn't need to replace any bag during the two years of ownership. 95%(98%?) +of the dust went to the bin instead of the bag. I dumped the content of the bin regularly.

Right, that's what I'm saying. If you counted every one of those bin dumps as a bag, how many bags add up to the DD? Just for round numbers, if the bags are $5 each and the DD costs $100, after 20 dumps, you are ahead of the game. Of course the CT-VA costs more, and would take longer to pay back, but people like it for the fit into the system.

 

[Coen]

Re-using bags... be it cutting the normal bag or using the official reusable bag... disgusting
No way I am emptying that bag anyware.

I have a 22, 26 and a Midi I, have no cyclone and use the official bags. The fleece bags for the 22 (not the paper ones!).

The cyclone brings loss of suction and depending on what you do it will  be years before it pays off.

 

[Lincoln]

I thought re-using the fleece bags was a no go? Aren't the bags too blocked to offer the right filtration, once they've been filled?

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I thought re-using the fleece bags was a no go? Aren't the bags too blocked to offer the right filtration, once they've been filled?

I don't know about that? It seems as there are guys who use a single bag for multiple years at a time, through the use of some kind of cyclone. This is effectively a pre-filter, but the stuff that gets caught in them is the bigger particles. Of course, that is what fills bags in the first place, but it means that the bag is doing the finer particle filtration for the life of what would have been a lot of bags.

 

[Michael Kellough]

A bag used to collect debris from a planer can be emptied and reused many times with almost no detrimental effect. Used with a saw, airflow through the bag will be reduced more quickly and if working in a client’s living room I’d want to use a new bag and skip the cyclone.

When sanding, especially with finer grits more dust gets past the cyclone and lodges in the bag. Even if the bag seems empty airflow may be reduced to the point that the bag is not a good match with any operation other than fine sanding. On the other hand with a new bag and no cyclone you might not be able to reduce suction enough to sand properly.

 

[ChuckM]

Dust Deputy -How does it work
https://www.oneida-air.com/blog/how-does-the-dust-deputy-work

Cleaner filter and (significantly) fewer bags used. Loss of suction? Yes, but insignificant for all intents and purposes.

 

[semenza]

Keep it on topic? I'm not quite sure how the conversation went from my question to talking about insert tooling, but anyway.

2 CT15s cost almost the same as 1 CT26. What I was asking is, if the CT15 works fine, why get the single CT26? Someone on a thread listed out the cost of bags by volume, did a comparison, to explain that x number of bags purchased in one CT size would provide x amount of savings over buying the same volume in bags from another CT size.

I'd rather have 6 CT15s hanging around my 2600sqft shop than 3 CT26s. Unless the CT26s provided significant performance difference or savings over time.

Some simple math shows that the CT26 ( .33 ) will cost less per liter than the CT15 ( .48 ). And a single CT26 costs $35 less than two CT15s. So in both ways, tool cost and consumable cost, a single CT26 is less than two CT15s This is in a bit of a bubble since actual fill percentage between the two may be different. I am guessing that if there is a difference in fill percentage that the CT26 will win in that regard as well since the larger volume should resist clogging longer.

The fill percentage and actual cost difference in actual use will be hard to truly know from peoples individual experiences and guesstimations. Because there are a bunch of factors that involve each persons personal use habits. I am not saying  that input doesn't have value, just that it may not hold up for someone else's usage.

The math suggests that a single CT26 will cost less than two CT15s over time. 100 bags per year in a CT26 (2600 L ) = $858. The same 2600 L in CT15s (173 bags ) = $1,248.  Saving $390 per year. That is assuming the fill percentages , etc are actually equal.

I think you need to figure out about how many liters per year you will need and do  the simple math. Look at that number, then decide if it is enough to justify a less optimal shop set up (for you) using fewer CT26s.

My inclination based on the numbers involved is to go with the better shop set up ( in your case CT15s ). It will pay dividends in efficiency.

Seth

 

[xedos]

It always amazes me how many folk will spend $500 - $1000 on a vacuum cleaner and then worry, agonize , or complain about having to spend 5bucks on a bag for them. 

-or-

Spend xtra time dumping the bag’s contents or devising a clip to cut the end of it to dump.  All the while pumping that dust back into the air they breath.

-or-

Buy another $300 dollar contraption so their five dollar bag doesn’t fill as quickly.

Why do so many fret about bag cost ?  Festool bags are roughly the same price as those from shop vac , ridgid or the other low brow vacs. Which in my book makes those overpriced given the $200 or less cost of the vacs.

If you’re running a business - the customer is paying for the bags anyway; so why do you care how much they cost ?  If you’re plying your trade with Festool and similar - I’ll pretty much guarantee you aren’t the low cost leader.  So , again, why are so many uptight about a five dollar bag yet don’t lose any sleep over a $$$ vacuum ? 

 

[Lincoln]

I don't worry, agonize or complain - but, CT26 bags are AU$109.51 for five. That's over AU$20 each. In US$, that's $15 each.

 

[eschumac]

  So , again, why are so many uptight about a five dollar bag yet don’t lose any sleep over a $$$ vacuum ?

I think you are being hyperbolic and perhaps projecting something that isn't happening.

I don't think there is a large percentage of people that are "uptight" about consumable costs. Festool is known for pricey consumables.  Seems reasonable to discuss the costs. That's running a business efficiently, right? I mean, if I save 50 bucks a day on bags I can do other things with that same money like buying my guys lunch or paying for my kid's braces. If I could offer you something that cut $200 bucks a day or $1000 a day from your expenses without making you change your prices I'm guessing you would want that. More money in your pocket.

Just cleaning up a little bit where a bag lasts you a week is one thing. Filling bags from a planer every 5 minutes seems silly so a cyclone or whatever can make sense from an efficiency perspective. Fill a barrel while you keep working instead of changing the little bitty bags every 5 minutes.

If I'm vacuuming asbestos I'm using bags Cleaning corners in a rehab, bags. Drywall dust, auto clean. Demolition debris, cyclone.. partly because it gives you a second chance to pull something out you needed

I bought my Ct36 AC for the price because I can easily burn through a vacuum in a year. ROI is there. The bag ROI is different for different people and different needs. Yes, some people actually enjoy the game of cost cutting and over analyzing the details. This brand seems to find those people.

You might feel more at home on Reddit if you enjoy belittling people asking honest questions.

 

[xedos]

I don't worry, agonize or complain - but, CT26 bags are AU$109.51 for five. That's over AU$20 each. In US$, that's $15 each.

Might be, but in the USA - where this group started and the OP is from - bags cost around $5 usd.  Given what I know about festool , I’ll bet their Aus Dollar pricing is pretty consistent with regard to consumables vs. tool pricing as a percentage. Just like it is in most currencies.

And whatever the currency is , the customer is paying if you’re in business and those that aren’t should perhaps be looking at lower cost tools if consumable cost is really an issue.

I think you are being hyperbolic and perhaps projecting something that isn't happening.

I don't think there is a large percentage of people that are "uptight" about consumable costs.

A quick, rudimentary search will show you the topic of bag price comes up a bit more than you think. And the overwhelming majority of them are not running a planer filling their bags with shavings.  So, not projecting or exaggerating.

You could save even more by spending less capital on the equipment in the first place. (Non festool).  You could spend money on lottery tickets.  Or NFTs. Or Whiskey.  Which might net you huge return.  And the cost cutting gamers will have much bigger scores by using brands other than festool too. 

Or not .

Bags are an overhead expense like electricity, internet service or toilet paper.  Think of the money you could save by using the internet at the public library and going to the bathroom at home or at the restaurant you and the employees go to lunch at with bag money savings.

And I’m not belittling anyone , I ask an honest question too.  I am genuinely curious about the mentality of someone that buys an expensive , premium product only to worry about the cost of consumables or maintenance on that product. 

 

[mino]

[member=67935]xedos[/member]
I think you are underestimating the consumables consumption for a pro or semi-pro versus the capital cost of getting the vac.

The vast majority buy Festool kit for FUNCTION and NOT for "It's Cool" factor - like when they buy an iPhone. Sure, Festool would love those sales, and there are some. But these are nowhere close to a signifficant minority even.

The vacs are a prime example actually.

There are qualitative differences between a CT26+ series and the Nilfisk OEM Mirka mentioned. No mistake that Nilfisk series is a VERY GOOD vac, one of the best in its price class.

Still, you cannot get the CT26+ series functionality like /low/ noise, air quality, suction consistency, no need for filter clean, AS hose, air-control option etc. etc. in a /signifficantly/ lower-priced product.

If you are in the market for those features, the CT26+ series are the "CHEAP" option actually. In some even the only option. This makes them expensive for some. But not "premium". There can be no talk of a premium where a /signifficantly/ cheaper option is not out there.

Sure, if one needs a vac to vacuum a truck on a driveway, Festool CT is an absurd overkill and a luxury thing. But people do not buy them for that purpose. They buy them for usage where the features/abilities they paid for have a use.

This makes any consumables discussion absolutely valid.

On to the topic:
Getting a CT36 and re-using the self-clean bags is likely to get you BETTER overall experience than getting that Nilfisk Mirka and using it with new bags only. And at a lower operating cost. There are people who fill a bag a week, or even a day ... and do not want a cyclone for -reasons-.

/end rant