CT15 or Mini/Midi ?

[rbrt86]

Hi everyone,
Even though I read many topics here, this is my first actual question

I own a DTS400 and added a Ro 90 recently. For larger sanding I use a Bosch GEX 125-150 AVE.
I'm quite happy with my Karcher WD3 vacuum, as it's large and easy for the big mess, but for these sanders it's not optimal.
You can't turn down the vacuum power on it, it's extremely loud and it doesn't have an electrical socket for the sanders itself.

so now I'm considering a Dust Extractor, but can't decide:

• Karcher WD6 P Premium (~200 EUR )
• Festool CT15 (~300 EUR )
• Festool Mini (~385 EUR )
• Festool Midi (~430 EUR )

The CT15 and Mini are in discount currently

I'm considering a Dust Extractor for sanding, maybe attach it to a router in rare cases, but I'm your typical weekend warrior so I'll hardly use it on the road, the hose garage and systainer support are not really relevant. Actually I'm still doubting if I should use a Dust Extractor for sanding at all, as I mostly sand outside.

So I'm wondering if my use case is even worth a DE, and if so, maybe just get a "cheaper" one such as the WD6 or the CT15?
Or do you feel the added 85,- on the mini are worth the bluetooth / hose?
As it's used for sanding only I doubt it will get full quickly

I know, asking "should I buy a Festool" on FOG is rather silly, but I hope you can share your experience

 

[ghhsolutions]

If you can afford it then I would get the Midi, you won't regret it and you will never be thinking "I wish I had just paid that little bit extra to buy a Midi" 

I have no experience of the Karcher so can't comment on that, but it is sold as a vacuum cleaner, not an extractor.

The Mini is a Midi with less dust capacity. They both use the same bag but in the Mini you can't use all the capacity of the bag so you will spend more on bags. I was about to buy a Mini until the Festool rep told me this and I bought a Midi.

The CT15 is a Midi with all the nice bits removed to make it cheaper. It has the same performance and capacity as the Midi but isn't as nice to use. For me the main negatives are the ribbed hose and the lack of Bluetooth, followed by no hose garage and no Systainer stacking. It also lacks the parking brake but this is less of an isssue.

I will probably buy a CT15 soon to complement my Midi and CT Sys, but it will be permanently sited under my Kapex where the lack of  Midi features will be irrelevant.

Everyone's needs and priories are different so this just gives you my take on it.

 

[Birdhunter]

I have 3 Midis, two dedicated to their machines and one for multiple uses. The quietness was the main selling feature. I have to protect what hearing that I have left.

 

[mino]

I have 3 Midis, two dedicated to their machines and one for multiple uses. The quietness was the main selling feature. I have to protect what hearing that I have left.

For quietness I would go after CT26. The lack of output connection allows for better acoustic insulation.

 

[ryan_k]

I went through the same process a few months ago.  Used to own a CT36, then went to smaller Fein Turbo I and used it for years until it died.

I choose the Midi and have zero regrets.  The bluetooth and the better hose are major upgrades and well worth the cost.  Hose garage is also very easy to use and great to keep things tidy.

 

[Cheese]

...but I'm your typical weekend warrior so I'll hardly use it on the road, the hose garage and systainer support are not really relevant. Actually I'm still doubting if I should use a Dust Extractor for sanding at all, as I mostly sand outside.

The dust extractor does more than just vacuum up the dust, on Festool sanders the dust extraction, through a series of holes & channels in the pad, also cools the pad and sandpaper. If a Festool sander has "Turbo dust extraction", "Multi-Jetstream", "Jetstream" or "Multi-Jetstream 2" then the pad & paper will run cooler and last longer.

The BT is very convenient when changing grits. When I change grits, I remove the hose from the sander, vacuum the wood to remove any dust, remove the sand paper and vacuum the pad, then put on a different grit paper, reattach the hose to the sander and carry on. I'd never purchase another vac without BT because of the convenience factor.

The Systainer support is also very nice. I keep a SYS-MFT on top of both MIDI's and a CT 22. The SYS-MFT contains a tape measure, several pencils, a Sharpie, vac brush & nozzle, various pieces of sandpaper, clamps to hold items to the SYS-MFT and protects my cell phone from sunlight/heat. It also provides a nice flat surface to hold various sanders.

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[Chainring]

Another vote for the MIDI. Plus, the MINI is being discontinued, so you'd have to act fast if you really wanted it.

 

[Bertotti]

I bought a ct26 a long time ago. Maybe a decade or more. When BT came out I was thinking why! Why does everything have to be wireless computerized etc, old fart thinking but I haven’t hit 60 yet, any who one day I bought the BT module for the ct26. It is one of those things I swore I would never use and now kick myself for not getting it sooner. I keep the small sys with all the tools in top and add the sys mft when moving about away from a bench. Kind of wish I had a second sys mft sometimes. Blue tooth is very handy, just saying.

This post is kind of timely as well, my family have decided I ct26 is the vacuum to use around the house. Now I’m wondering if I shouldn’t add one smaller and easier to move up and down stairs.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

That is the only complaint I ever hear about the CT26, the weight of it when full can be a bit much for carrying up a few flights of stairs.

 

[Coen]

The Midi; because of the smooth anti-static hose alone.

Another vote for the MIDI. Plus, the MINI is being discontinued, so you'd have to act fast if you really wanted it.

Since when?

Actually I'm still doubting if I should use a Dust Extractor for sanding at all, as I mostly sand outside.

Disgusting.

Also; sand paper lasts longer with dust extraction and the surface finish will be better. Newer sanders like the ETS EC aren't even supposed to be used without DE.

The question isn't really if you need one, but if you only need one.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=8955]Coen[/member] that only applies to us in North America, as far as I know. It was announced a little while ago.

 

[Chainring]

The Midi; because of the smooth anti-static hose alone.

Another vote for the MIDI. Plus, the MINI is being discontinued, so you'd have to act fast if you really wanted it.

Since when?

There was a product announcement, I think, from Chip at Tool Nirvana and in it was a couple of products on the chopping block, per Festool. One was the MINI and the other was the polisher of which I forget the name. Keep in mind, that's the US. I don't know about rest of the world.

Found it.https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/...roduct-update-dust-extractors-mixer-polisher/

 

[mino]

[member=8955]Coen[/member] that only applies to us in North America, as far as I know. It was announced a little while ago.

Makes sense, I guess the Mini sells very little in US so it makes little sense to stock the SKU. The bottom bin will still be available as a spare part to retrofit I guess.

Over here, in Europe, the Mini is an "installer's" and "handyman's" vac choice in cities where you need to log it around to the flats. That market is WAY bigger in Europe, so I do not see the Mini going away anytime soon. The CTLC Mini just came out after all ...

Also, there is one more market for a Mini in Europe which is easy to miss. It is now illegal in the EU to make a home hoover with more power than 700W. No, this is not a joke. No, there is no (physics-based) logic in it.

This means anyone who wants a good home vac is forced to go industrial. And the Mini is like the best product on the market Festool has for that role. *)

*) On a home vac where you suck up a lot of fatty organic stuff like hair etc. you need to swap the bag often as it will start to smell after a month or two anyway. So a bigger bag is of no benefit there.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

In the US, for home use, most people use cannister type vacs that don't have bags. They are usually upright stick style that don't have a hose.

I think the typical installer around here would use a small "shop vac" or one of the little battery-operated units like DeWalt or Makita.
It's really only specialty installers, like solid surface guys (who would be sanding on-site) that use higher grade extractors.

It might just be me or my perception, but I see US customers as far more price sensitive? Even the pros. I haven't been "in the field" for a few years, but I have never seen any Festool stuff out there. Even our in house installers are using company-owned Ct26 and RO150s.

 

[mino]

In the US, for home use, most people use cannister type vacs that don't have bags. They are usually upright stick style that don't have a hose.

I think the typical installer around here would use a small "shop vac" or one of the little battery-operated units like DeWalt or Makita.
It's really only specialty installers, like solid surface guys (who would be sanding on-site) that use higher grade extractors.

It might just be me or my perception, but I see US customers as far more price sensitive? Even the pros. I haven't been "in the field" for a few years, but I have never seen any Festool stuff out there. Even our in house installers are using company-owned Ct26 and RO150s.

Over here carpets are a thing. Carpets are great to avoid home dust. They trap it all in so it is vacuumed up ... there you really do not want any cyclones or bagless around. The greasy stuff (hair, parts of skin) just  smells as it oxidizes on air over time. So a one-use bag is a must as it takes the decomposing oils away when thrown out.

Secondly, in Europe AC is a luxury/uncommon, and so is forced ventilation. In winter the homes are not ventilated (as much) as you would do with AC that commonly includes a forced ventilation system. So people generally focus more in cleanliness and avoidance of any bad smell sources.

Case in point: There were "bagless" cyclone vacs introduced about two decades ago (Dyson style) and it lasted a decade until people figured that, while they save on bags, the vac smells like junk after a year or so. And replacing the /expensive/ microfilters instead of bags gets expensive fast.

As for installers ... when you commonly have to lug your stuff up 4 or 5 stories over stairs or in a small lift (usual lifts for 3 people are 100x100 cm inside), you think more about the size of things to take. Sure, not folks here buy Festool - but it should be said Festool is NOT the "very expensive" option here. Nilfisk, Metabo or Makita vacs *in the same class* at the same range. IMO it is more that the whole "pro" market is geared more for TCO and less on upfront costs. Those $50-$100 shop vac "things" I see on tube at semi-pro shops would be considered at most for a hobby use only. Cannot imagine using in a garage. The noise alone would kill me!

Sure, there are cheaper €100-€150 vacs like the Makita VC2000L ...but those have like 1/2 the capacity of a Midi and no SelfClean, so the bags are junk /they leak/ etc. so on TCO they do not work out all that good.

And when you charge €200+/day for your work ... then €450 for a Mini that lasts a decade is not THAT much. And the hose garage is a godsend when you need to carry the vac over stairs etc. etc.

 

[ChuckM]

In Canada, I have never come across any on-site contractors who use a CT (any model). Those who do are in the minority (a tiny one too).

Hardwood floor installers and many reno folks cut things either in the garage or on the driveway...or in the house (if both of the former are not convenient to them).

As for the OP's question, judging from his description of how he has been sanding (outdoors), the CT15 is MORE THAN good enough for him. He DOESN'T need any of the additional features of a MIDI. It's a different  story if he is buying a dust extractor also to meet any future requirements.

 

[Coen]

Secondly, in Europe AC is a luxury/uncommon, and so is forced ventilation.

In NL since 1975, everything with open kitchen, which by then was about 90% of new builds, was required to have mechanical extraction. It's very uncommon to find something build later than 1975 without something like this;

AC is on the rise too, but not with bigass air channels like in some US homes.

 

[Bertotti]

Yes it is considered crazy expensive and Dewalt and Milwaukee have their own cult like following. Go into our local equipment store and they will have 100gallon bins filled with no battery drills and or drivers same bins filled with batteries, another area is stacks and I mean stack of Milwaukee items. Festool has their own isle but the quantity is a fraction of the popular stuff. Price is a big reason, a lot of new people new to the contracting trades have no real cash and buy on price then step up to one of those big two. But we do have independent guys here with ct dust extractors they take on site and track saws and routers and dominoes but like mentioned earlier they are more rare. Certainly not the norm. But lately there have been more then I have noticed on the past.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Since I live in a city with a metro area of more than a million, there is every choice easily available.
Three different brands of big box stores, a WoodCraft store, a specialty woodworking store, and a few lumber yards. There are a couple of cabinet shop suppliers, but those are not open to retail customers. There is also a tool store, where they sell Hilti, but it is not really woodworking oriented.

In general, these places don't sell all of the options. The box stores focus on the lower priced consumer-grade stuff. That's the DeWalt, Milwaukee, Makita, etc
The woodworking places have a Festool area, size of which being somewhat proportionate to the sales. What they keep in stock is also a little different between them. Those places might have a router or sander from the consumer brands, but they purposely do not even try to compete with the lower price places on the cordless drills and that kind of stuff.
The "supplier" type places do carry almost everything, but they don't stock it all. It takes them a day or two. The beauty of them is delivery. I can get a FS3000 rail with no worry about damage.

Point being that for the most part, you won't see all of this together in the same store. You would have to intentionally go to a place to get the higher-end tools. The average homeowner or tradesman wouldn't even know that brands like Festool and Hilti even exist and the price would blow their minds.
I get people in the shop all the time who see my set-up. There are three responses.
Never heard of it
know about it, but never seen so much at one place
Impressed, because they know
All come with questions.

 

[rbrt86]

...but I'm your typical weekend warrior so I'll hardly use it on the road, the hose garage and systainer support are not really relevant. Actually I'm still doubting if I should use a Dust Extractor for sanding at all, as I mostly sand outside.

The dust extractor does more than just vacuum up the dust, on Festool sanders the dust extraction, through a series of holes & channels in the pad, also cools the pad and sandpaper. If a Festool sander has "Turbo dust extraction", "Multi-Jetstream", "Jetstream" or "Multi-Jetstream 2" then the pad & paper will run cooler and last longer.

The BT is very convenient when changing grits. When I change grits, I remove the hose from the sander, vacuum the wood to remove any dust, remove the sand paper and vacuum the pad, then put on a different grit paper, reattach the hose to the sander and carry on. I'd never purchase another vac without BT because of the convenience factor.

[...]

Thanks everyone, you seem to have convinced me to buy a dust extractor, I can see the advantages over not using one, even outside.

However there is one thing that keeps me doubting: For the additional 85EUR upgrade between CT15 and Mini I get:
[list type=decimal]
[*]bluetooth function
[*]hose garage
[*]AntiStatic smooth hose
[*]filter cleaner
[*]foot break
[/list]

Given the price of the AS hose alone I can live with that.

But the Midi is 40EUR more expensive compared to Mini, and the upgrade is:
[list type=decimal]
[*]a larger dust compartment
[/list]

This is why I thought the Mini sounds like a better deal?

If you can afford it then I would get the Midi, you won't regret it and you will never be thinking "I wish I had just paid that little bit extra to buy a Midi" 

[..]

The Mini is a Midi with less dust capacity. They both use the same bag but in the Mini you can't use all the capacity of the bag so you will spend more on bags. I was about to buy a Mini until the Festool rep told me this and I bought a Midi.

[..]

Do you guys think I'd regret getting a Mini over a Midi, given that I'll mainly use it for sanding anyway? Or is this a nice way to save 40,- ?