CTC Midi I thoughts

[catchy_username]

First post here, but I haven't seen any user feedback from users here in regards to the cordless Midi.

I have owned one for a while now and I have mixed thoughts on it.

Firstly, the Pros:
The suction is really good. Rivals a corded Midi, at least while the batteries are full.
It's basically a corded Midi, but even more maneuverable as it does not have a cord. It's amazing moving it around and not running over a cord or not needing to worry about a cord.
Build quality is typical Festool dust extractor quality. Solid and it feels like it could take some abuse.

Now, the Cons:
It's a $679USD/$869CAD Vacuum. Why on earth is it using a brushed motor? Pretty much any BLDC motor is more efficient than a brushed motor, which would mean similar/better performance for less power consumption. I'd understand brushes for a corded vacuum but for a cordless vacuum, it feels like they were just being cheap. Not only that, but the motor unit is a sealed unit (unlike the Corded CT Midi/CT26/36/48), so you actually need to replace the entire motor and impeller unit (which they call the turbine), once the brushes wear out. On a normal Midi you would just replace the brushes.

The 8AH battery does not exist in North America, making this vacuum effectively useless for anything that is not a quick cut. I get it was designed for that but more runtime is better. Heck, an AC Adapter like the Metabo HPT Multivolt adapter would make this thing a class leader, allowing for corded/cordless work. I feel the 8AH being high current 21700 cells would also fare better and result in more consistent suction power (around ~30% remaining battery there is a noticeable dropoff in suction power, when using 2x 5.2AH batteries).

Also, what on earth were they thinking? The battery compartment lid is about 2mm too recessed in to the vacuum, meaning that if you have any systainers on top of the vacuum, you actually cannot change the vacuum batteries without taking off the systainers. This is probably the biggest pet peeve of the vacuum. I might have to take the battery compartment lid off.

All in all, it doesn't feel as well "thought out" as most Festool tools are to be honest.

 

[mino]

... Why on earth is it using a brushed motor? ...

How are you sure it is using a brushed motor, pics ?

Pretty much any BLDC motor is more efficient than a brushed motor, ...
snip

You put there a qualifier "pretty much". Well, you were correct in that as the statement is anecdotal and is not universal.*)

There is a lot more to tool/motor efficiency than brushed/brushless. Some of that lot means a brushless "motor" (actually the "tool" as for a brushless motor the losses are in electronics instead of the motor itself) needs not be more efficient. From the top of my head is running at low power where brushed tools tend to be pretty efficient - more so than at high loads - while brushless are the opposite as the semiconductor-based voltage converters they need have a constant base consumption which does not scale (much) with load. I can easily see Festool preferring low-power runtime at the cost of a full-bore one for a vac to make e.g. sanding usage more practical.
This may be even more so thanks to the CTCs being a bit "overpowered" on the market - their "low power" setting can go toe to toe with many competing vacs at full bore so the runtime at low power is all that more important.

Not only that, but the motor unit is a sealed unit (unlike the Corded CT Midi/CT26/36/48), so you actually need to replace the entire motor and impeller unit (which they call the turbine), once the brushes wear out. On a normal Midi you would just replace the brushes.

There would be good reasons for that. (again, would like to see a proof here the motor is indeed brushed)

Did you ever see how a "pluggable" connector which can handle 40+ A DC loads needs to look ? ... and how easy it is for it to burn up ? Arcing is a huge problem in DC circuits compared to AC ones. Such a connector would have to be at least 10 times as robust as the 10 A rated AC connector you see in the corded version of the vac ... that itself could easily make replaceable brushes impractical.

The 8AH battery does not exist in North America, making this vacuum effectively useless for anything that is not a quick cut. I get it was designed for that but more runtime is better.

Yes, it is known the 8 Ah packs faced major (year+) manufacturing difficulties. My guess is the initial batches did not meet Festool quality standards. Several tools which were otherwise ready were not released in 2022, waiting for the 8 Ah packs ... CSC 50 is a known one but the vacs were very likely the other "victims". Eventually Festool gave up waiting for the 8 Ah packs and released with the (also new) 5.0 ones.

The alternative is you would not have been able to purchase your vac at all - until after 8 Ah packs became available ... not sure that would have been preferred. Such things happen, stars do not always align to allow for synchronised launches. Yeah it does suck.

...
(around ~30% remaining battery there is a noticeable dropoff in suction power, when using 2x 5.2AH batteries).

This is likely intentional to protect the batteries. You should try not to drain the packs to the absolute bottom, so it acts both as a protection (over-high discharge currents at low capacity are not good for the packs) and as an indication for the user to swap the packs. What probably happens is the power regulator switches from "constant power" (aka increasing current at lowering voltage) to "constant current" to not overload either the packs or the tool regulating circuitry. My TSC 55 behaves the same.

The battery compartment lid is about 2mm too recessed in to the vacuum, meaning that if you have any systainers on top of the vacuum, you actually cannot change the vacuum batteries without taking off the systainers. This is probably the biggest pet peeve of the vacuum. I might have to take the battery compartment lid off.
...

This is a good point, I would advise you raise it with Festool directly and ask for a fix ... it may be a design error or a bad piece you got that does not align.
Does seem weird indeed.

*)
I am putting the aspect of cost completely aside here. Festool was one of the pioneers of brushless tools back in the early 2000s. Aka way, way before most competitors had any in their lineups. E. g. the CSX had brushes not because of "saving money" but because it was not possible to make such a small tool brushless and as smooth as it was at the time. And some (including me) would argue it is probably still not so today ... as seen with the new CXS series ...

 

[Coen]

1) I don't know it's brushed, you seem to know, but how? Care to share?
2) Perhaps look at intended use. If you need massive run-hours, don't buy a cordless vac..?
3) Sealed units are perfect for durability, especially in a vac.

This is a good point, I would advise you raise it with Festool directly and ask for a fix ... it may be a design error or a bad piece you got that does not align.
Does seem weird indeed.

I had more success with some local governments on fixing bad designs  [wink]

 

[catchy_username]

How are you sure it is using a brushed motor, pics ?

1) I don't know it's brushed, you seem to know, but how? Care to share?

I took it apart a few days ago. I should have taken pictures of the motor but I forgot to. There's two brushes contacting the stator.

Did you ever see how a "pluggable" connector which can handle 40+ A DC loads needs to look ? ... and how easy it is for it to burn up ? Arcing is a huge problem in DC circuits compared to AC ones. Such a connector would have to be at least 10 times as robust as the 10 A rated AC connector you see in the corded version of the vac ... that itself could easily make replaceable brushes impractical.

I would argue the CTC Midi current draw is around 20 amps at most, the wiring inside is definitely not strong enough to sustain 40A+ DC and 20 amps is around the current draw I would calculate based off the runtime of the machine (16 minutes on max, using two 5.2ah batteries is about 19.5A plus losses and all that.)

Black and Red wire with lugs are are the two power wires from the battery. Black wire on top is the wire for a voltage reference between the two battery packs (the batteries are connected in series at the connector side. The thin twisted wire is the wires from the battery.

The two black wires are power going to the motor. There are no other electronics on the vacuum except in the front panel.

it may be a design error or a bad piece you got that does not align.

I have a feeling it's a design error / something overlooked in design. Every CTC Midi does this and the only solution is to take off the lid. Dealer and I tried a bunch of them and every single one does that.

2) Perhaps look at intended use. If you need massive run-hours, don't buy a cordless vac..?

Asking for more than 15 minutes on high is not a big ask. Sure an occasional cut or two is fine, but using it on a jobsite with say a osc 18 and doing lots of small cuts can kill the batts on the vac quickly. A solution would be the 8ah.

3. Sealed units are perfect for durability, especially in a vac.

Maybe sealed wasn't the right word, more so the brushes are simply not removable unlike the corded units. EKAT doesn't even list the brushes, simply the entire "turbine".

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Input here from an old-school Limey with 36 years on the tools as a pro;

The obsession with ‘everything has to be cordless’ is completely unfathomable to me. Yeah - no cords, freedom of movement etc. etc. etc. - but I don’t see how an extractor which only runs 16 minutes on a charge is offering any practical real-world advantages.

The unavailability of bigger-capacity Festool batteries is similarly unfathomable to me. I’ve been using 8.0Ah Hilti batteries for over two years now - on 22v cordless tools which actually NEED to be cordless - combi, impact, recip, nailer and so on. Hand-held and unencumbered by bits of wire and wall sockets. But extractors and table saws? And hey - well done to Festool for designing a small, high-draw cordless extractor which won’t take the bigger batteries when they finally surface.

The brushless obsession is similarly unfathomable. I don’t care about the specifications, the technology or the physics, since I have 6/7/8/9/10-year-old tools which get used on an almost daily basis, and which still have their original brushes in. And when they finally do cave in? A coupla bucks, 10 minutes with a screwdriver, and hey presto. Fixed and good to go again for the next xxx years.

Maybe I’m completely outta touch with the modern world. But to me, all of these alleged ‘advances’ are just like the EV thing in the automotive industry. You can only drive it for a while until the battery dies, and you’ll use your last 50 miles of range driving round desperately searching for a public charging point if you’re away from home. You buy it with zero knowledge of future costs, resale value, reliability or any other realistic buying decision made by buyers of gas or diesel-powered vehicles which have multiple decades of historical benchmarks to rely on. And all yours starting at just $50k, sir.

Maybe I’m getting old.

Manufacturers have invested billions, but are already scaling back production of EV’s hugely.  They have airfields and dealer lots stacked out with unsold vehicles nobody wants to buy. Instead - those customers all want to buy a car which will take them on a nonstop 600-mile on-a-whim trip to Vegas for the weekend, they only have $20k budget, and they worry about the dozens of YouTube videos which surface on an almost weekly basis which show underdeveloped, rushed-to-market EV’s catastrophically catching fire.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Agreed, maybe even more so, because I'm not forced to be mobile. In the shop, the only cordless I need is drills, impact drivers. Now, don't get me wrong, I do use (and really appreciate) cordless laminate trimmers...but they are not required. It's just that when you use as many as I do, not braiding the cords together is handy [smile] All I use them for is edge trimming bits though, real cuts get real routers. That would be the corded Makita trimmer or OF1010 at a minimum. These bring dust extraction into the mix as well. Once you are connected cord or hose, why not both?
I use the small 1.5Ah batteries most of the time too. The big ones just aren't needed for my use. The drills/drivers don't need them and the cordless routers have their balance messed up by them. I have a couple of 5Ah, that I use with the bigger drill, if I need a hole saw or something. They spend more time in the radio than anything else  [blink]

In the field, possibly with sketchy power, sure, otherwise?

 

[ChuckM]

Snip

Oh - and spoiler alert ……. Ford just shut down ALL production of EV’s including the much anticipated ‘Lightning’ F150EV which will now probably never see the light of day. They have airfields and dealer lots stacked out with unsold vehicles nobody wants to buy. Instead - those customers all want to buy a car which will take them on a nonstop 600-mile whim trip to Vegas for the weekend, they only have $20k budget, and they worry about the dozens of YouTube videos which surface on an almost weekly basis which show underdeveloped, rushed-to-market EV’s catastrophically catching fire.

When I heard my 16-year-old teen neighbor say she worried about her future or the lack of it due to climate concerns, I knew what my family has been doing for over 10 years is right -- that we bring our own food containers with us if we plan to have leftovers to bring from a restaurant meal and took our paper stuff, etc. to the central recycle bins before we now have own bins.

But when I looked at EVs (we need another car in two or three years at the most), I found them falling short. Our winters are cold and our summer vacation travels can be long distance (400km and more one way), which aren't issues for my gas SUV. The relative lack of charging stations is also an inconvenience factor to us.  So, EVs? Thanks, but no thanks. We'll be most likely settling for a hybrid.

 

[Coen]

2) Perhaps look at intended use. If you need massive run-hours, don't buy a cordless vac..?

Asking for more than 15 minutes on high is not a big ask. Sure an occasional cut or two is fine, but using it on a jobsite with say a osc 18 and doing lots of small cuts can kill the batts on the vac quickly. A solution would be the 8ah.

3. Sealed units are perfect for durability, especially in a vac.

Maybe sealed wasn't the right word, more so the brushes are simply not removable unlike the corded units. EKAT doesn't even list the brushes, simply the entire "turbine".

I was talking about the lack of separately listed brushes on the 'if you need massive run-hours...'

The small run-time on a battery charge is not something unexpected either.

 

[Bencan]

Input here from an old-school Limey with 36 years on the tools as a pro;

The obsession with ‘everything has to be cordless’ is completely unfathomable to me. Yeah - no cords, freedom of movement etc. etc. etc. - but I don’t see how an extractor which only runs 16 minutes on a charge is offering any practical real-world advantages.

The unavailability of bigger-capacity Festool batteries is similarly unfathomable to me. I’ve been using 8.0Ah Hilti batteries for over two years now - on 22v cordless tools which actually NEED to be cordless - combi, impact, recip, nailer and so on. Hand-held and unencumbered by bits of wire and wall sockets. But extractors and table saws? And hey - well done to Festool for designing a small, high-draw cordless extractor which won’t take the bigger batteries when they finally surface.

The brushless obsession is similarly unfathomable. I don’t care about the specifications, the technology or the physics, since I have 6/7/8/9/10-year-old tools which get used on an almost daily basis, and which still have their original brushes in. And when they finally do cave in? A coupla bucks, 10 minutes with a screwdriver, and hey presto. Fixed and good to go again for the next xxx years.

Maybe I’m completely outta touch with the modern world. But to me, all of these alleged ‘advances’ are just like the EV thing in the automotive industry. You can only drive it for a while until the battery dies, and you’ll use your last 50 miles of range driving round desperately searching for a public charging point if you’re away from home. You buy it with zero knowledge of future costs, resale value, reliability or any other realistic buying decision made by buyers of gas or diesel-powered vehicles which have multiple decades of historical benchmarks to rely on. And all yours starting at just $50k, sir.

Maybe I’m getting old.

Manufacturers have invested billions, but are already scaling back production of EV’s hugely.  They have airfields and dealer lots stacked out with unsold vehicles nobody wants to buy. Instead - those customers all want to buy a car which will take them on a nonstop 600-mile on-a-whim trip to Vegas for the weekend, they only have $20k budget, and they worry about the dozens of YouTube videos which surface on an almost weekly basis which show underdeveloped, rushed-to-market EV’s catastrophically catching fire.

Pretty on point here. Huge value in cordless tools and gear but it has to work in the real world. A cordless vac with 16 minutes of runtime might function ok as an extractor connected to a tracksaw or something but it won’t function as a vacuum. Seems both the midi and sys vacs are gigantic fails. People seem ok with the increased suction but it’s worthless if you need 4-6 batteries to maintain it continuously

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Coen]

[...]

The brushless obsession is similarly unfathomable. I don’t care about the specifications, the technology or the physics, since I have 6/7/8/9/10-year-old tools which get used on an almost daily basis, and which still have their original brushes in. And when they finally do cave in? A coupla bucks, 10 minutes with a screwdriver, and hey presto. Fixed and good to go again for the next xxx years.
[...]

For such high powered battery tools it's not about the cost of brushes, it's about the efficiency of the motor.

 

[mino]

...
People seem ok with the increased suction but it’s worthless if you need 4-6 batteries to maintain it continuously

Guess you are not an installer into high end homes ... or flats in the EUropean case ... whome these are for.

Such folks may need the vac for 5 minutes in the whole day at the customer, but those 5 minutes they require it at high power. That is what the CTC SYS series are for.

If someone is not an installer, there is zero point getting a specific installer's tool, indeed.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Such folks may need the vac for 5 minutes in the whole day at the customer, but those 5 minutes they require it at high power.

Agreed. That's why I bought a CTL-SYS to complement my bigger extractor. It's great for hanging doors or doing small trim jobs where there are only a few cuts to make - the lovely little super-convenient extractor-in-a-Systainer. The one which has a 230v power outlet and auto-start to run my tools, the one which I can run for an hour if my customer unexpectedly asks me to strip and sand her table 'since I'm already there', the one which doesn't lose half its suction fairly quickly - and then dies altogether. The one which Festool discontinued in favour of a cordless version.

I never once worked in a home which didn't have have power sockets.

 

[Bencan]

...
People seem ok with the increased suction but it’s worthless if you need 4-6 batteries to maintain it continuously

Guess you are not an installer into high end homes ... or flats in the EUropean case ... whome these are for.

Such folks may need the vac for 5 minutes in the whole day at the customer, but those 5 minutes they require it at high power. That is what the CTC SYS series are for.

If someone is not an installer, there is zero point getting a specific installer's tool, indeed.

I have some use cases for it for sure. The poor runtime of the ctc sys makes it not very versatile. Was considering the cordless midi but doesn’t seem to have much better runtime, stick to cords for the vacs I guess for now

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mino]

...
The one which Festool discontinued in favour of a cordless version.

I never once worked in a home which didn't have have power sockets.

I do not believe the CTL SYS is discontinued. That day may come though.

It is not just about a lacks of sockets - I believe you do significant projects where you *expect* to sand etc. so it makes sense to pull the cords etc.

For example when doing something in an (unknown) office one (if possible) does not want to plug into the "office" sockets as these may be UPS-protected and what not. Also, my point of an "install" was making 4 random holes into concrete and then a bit of a cleanup from small screws etc. That being the end of "dust generation" for a day. There are such jobs, and more than may seem.

In our old office I asked a crew why they carried the (big) 2x18V Makita vac when we have power everywhere - answer was the facility did not allow them to plug anything into the sockets ...

Again I am not saying the CTC SYS series are a panacea, but that if the ca 10 minute runtime at full power is not sufficient, one should look elsewhere. There are tens of better options in the lower suction range.

We should be glad Festool was as bold as they were to release a full-power-full-filtration small size/weight vac with the understanding the runtime will be miniscule.

No other maker dared to address that niche. So far that is. To me this is like the (original) CXS or the TPC. People either love them or ridicule, almost nothing in between. In either case, they focus on the niches no one really caters for in such a way. And that is good in my view. Options are good.